BK Ashford 30 Install

[Woody Stover]

I personally have not used one of the ~$20 moisture meters, so I can't vouch for or dispute their accuracy,

OT, but I got one of the Harbor Freight $14 meters. It has button batteries, and I had to clean the contacts and batteries a couple times already. Seems pretty accurate, though. I'm gonna get a different meter eventually. The General I had, before the connector broke, used a 9V battery.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Hey guys.
Got the dwyer mk2 hooked up. Overall weak draft is definitely NOT the problem! Upon lighting some kindling I'm quickly up to 0.08". 5min later I'm up to 0.1" WC. And yes, it was zeroed out before placing in the pipe.

I gave the stovepipe a brush, replaced screws in the collar to tighten them closer and drilled a hole for the draft tube.

I will try turning down the air and close the bypass in a bit to see how it's reacting.

So if the draft doesn't die later when I get this creo smell, what the hell is the problem?!!

 

[brenndatomu]

If there was going to be a draft problem...I would expect it after the stove is turned down...

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I lowered the air to 75% to keep the flue from getting too hot, but in the process the draft pres has increased to about .14" W.C. Still sucking along nicely at the moment and about to close the bypass...

 

[MissMac]

Hey guys.
Got the dwyer mk2 hooked up. Overall weak draft is definitely NOT the problem! Upon lighting some kindling I'm quickly up to 0.08". 5min later I'm up to 0.1" WC. And yes, it was zeroed out before placing in the pipe.

I gave the stovepipe a brush, replaced screws in the collar to tighten them closer and drilled a hole for the draft tube.

I will try turning down the air and close the bypass in a bit to see how it's reacting.

So if the draft doesn't die later when I get this creo smell, what the hell is the problem?!!

Shouldn’t you be measuring the draft with the bypass closed?

 

[lsucet]

I lowered the air to 75% to keep the flue from getting too hot, but in the process the draft pres has increased to about .14" W.C. Still sucking along nicely at the moment and about to close the bypass...

Ok draft is measured on high burn. It is normal when closing the tstat to see the draft increase. That is not a good representation of what is going on draft wise.
Let it burn on high and see what is the draft 15 to 20 minutes burning on high with a full load or enough wood that the stove get hot and see the readings.
Closing the air increase the pressure/vacuum and it will read higher for awhile. To see what it is doing when cruising, you need to wait 1 to 2 hrs after you go to your low settings to give time to settle. Now you can see what it is doing on low at present setting.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@MissMac

I'm just checking it along the way. Bypass was closed and didn't affect the draft much. Maybe dropped 0.01" W.C.

I have it set to about 55% and the flame has been out for about 15min. Draft has slowed to 0.1" but no creo smell yet??

 

[brenndatomu]

Draft has slowed to 0.1" but no creo smell yet??

I dunno what the draft spec is on this model...but in the wood furnace world, -0.1" WC is considered high draft, -0.04 to -0.06" is a common spec. I owned one (the one in my avatar pic) that was spec'd at -0.03"!
Do you know what BK calls for?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@brenndatomu I can't find it in the manual but on "HIGH" the draft I heard should be 0.05-0.08"W.C. So I'm almost double the recommended pressure.

Update 1hr on 55%tstat setting: Might have had a very slight creo smell around the cat probe, none noticeable upstairs with the windows cracked. It performed great and blew on the coals for about 30min until the temperature dropped and flame relit. There were 4 ash logs, about 10lbs loaded E-W in the back. It has not dropped below 0.1"WC, even jumped up to 0.15" briefly when there is a good wind gust outside.

Also, in case this smell doesn't come back: I did get the inner flue connector much tighter in the collar and I sealed all the old screw holes with high temp gasket (from the original crappy stove pipe build). There is a little bit of "hot metal" smell probably from the new stainless collar screws but I think I would still smell the dreaded creo smell if it got bad. Might have something to do with loading them in the back rather than smoldering logs right below the catalyst.

 

[AlbergSteve]

@brenndatomu I can't find it in the manual but on "HIGH" the draft I heard should be 0.05-0.08"W.C. So I'm almost double the recommended pressure.

Update 1hr on 55%tstat setting: Might have had a very slight creo smell around the cat probe, none noticeable upstairs with the windows cracked. It performed great and blew on the coals for about 30min until the temperature dropped and flame relit. There were 4 ash logs, about 10lbs loaded E-W in the back. It has not dropped below 0.1"WC, even jumped up to 0.15" briefly when there is a good wind gust outside.

Also, in case this smell doesn't come back: I did get the inner flue connector much tighter in the collar and I sealed all the old screw holes with high temp gasket (from the original crappy stove pipe build). There is a little bit of "hot metal" smell probably from the new stainless collar screws but I think I would still smell the dreaded creo smell if it got bad. Might have something to do with loading them in the back rather than smoldering logs right below the catalyst.

Hoping you'll stay up for a few hours watching the stove...need minute by minute reports. It's only 8pm here on the west coast so I'll be up for another four hours...

 

[begreen]

@brenndatomu I can't find it in the manual but on "HIGH" the draft I heard should be 0.05-0.08"W.C. So I'm almost double the recommended pressure.

The specs for draft are pretty low. This is from the manual:

DRAFT

Draft in the chimney system is initiated by the air pressure difference between the top and bottom of the
chimney. Heat generated within the firebox will rise and accelerate the draft in the chimney. Recommended
draft is .05 in. w.c. operated on high. Too little draft results in a sluggish fire and smoke spillage into the room
when the stove door is opened. Too much draft (over 0.06 in. w.c.) makes it unsafe to operate the stove and will
void manufacturers warranty.

Based on this I'd say your issue is definitely not a "cold chimney".

 

[Ashful]

Paging @aaronk25, I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over, and it's your theory anyway.

If there was going to be a draft problem...I would expect it after the stove is turned down...

Draft always climbs on my chimney, when turning down the stove. Chimney pull decreases a little as it cools after turn down, but the restriction at the air inlet always trumps this effect on my rig, causing a net increase in draft when turning down. If I'm dialed to 0.05"WC after 20 minutes running on high, it will typically climb to 0.1"WC when I turn down. Chimney height ain't changing, and drop across key damper decreases with the reduced flow rate, so draft below key damper has to increase.

 

[SpaceBus]

So it's not draft or equipment which leaves one thing...

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@Ashful, what is your draft on your 30ft chimney without damper? Why is my draft so high? It looks like I need to remove one of those chimney sections but it seemed like I need it to pull some of this creo vapor into the pipe.

So this morning after leaving on 55% tstat setting all night, I can't tell if I smelled anything upstairs but the windows were open. There's a nice bed of coals and the draft is running at 0.9" w.c.

Question, is there supposed to be a weld bead at the outer edge of the collar at the top of the stove? I don't have anything there.

I guess I'll keep monitoring it to see if the creo smell starts. I don't suspect my draft would drop much below 0.08" or so when running.

 

[brenndatomu]

Draft always climbs on my chimney, when turning down the stove. Chimney pull decreases a little as it cools after turn down, but the restriction at the air inlet always trumps this effect on my rig, causing a net increase in draft when turning down. If I'm dialed to 0.05"WC after 20 minutes running on high, it will typically climb to 0.1"WC when I turn down. Chimney height ain't changing, and drop across key damper decreases with the reduced flow rate, so draft below key damper has to increase.

Yes, this is how it works on a proper chimney (size/height/insulated) but if you have a chimney that is too large, or external, and uninsulated, etc, then after you cut the stove back the chimney cools, draft drops, fire cools, draft drops more...into a downward spiral we go...not saying this always happens, just that its possible...and more likely to happen if your chimney is outside of manufacturers specs for the stove.
From the OP's description of his chimney I would not have expected a draft issue, but after all this, it is too important to not at least check it...and now he knows what it is. Knowledge is power...especially when troubleshooting.
I like leaving my Dwyer hooked up 24/7/365...I have caught high draft several times during a windy winter storm...just a couple months back when we had that super cold snap my high temp alarm went off on the furnace...went down to check, high draft...(the baro couldn't keep up by itself) after making some adjustments the firebox temp slowly dropped and the alarm stopped. Without the Dwyer I would have been guessing on what the issue was...just saying...I think everybody with a wood burner and a nagging operational problem should test, or have their draft tested...

 

[SpaceBus]

There are too many engineers on this thread.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I know you are still skeptical SpaceBus... so I might try a known partially seasoned Beech at some point as a test just to make you happy .

After taking this draft measurement I'm thinking it still might be improper sealing of the stovepipe. When I rebuilt everything, two of the collar screws were not fully through the inner flue and pushing the pipe out a little bit. It might have not been sealing well in the collar, some vapors get around the outside of the inner flue and then can start making smell when they build up. I'm not sure it is still perfectly sealing the flue pipe but it is significantly better sealed after the 3 new screws. I also plugged an extra hole in the outer pipe by collar from an old screw hole. This morning I can just barely smell creo smell sniffing right at the collar and it's been in smoke mode for over an hour. Tstat is set at 55% but temp is still at the "HIGH" range likely because the draft is too high and it can't control temp well.

I wonder if anyone has had this same creo smell issue with a properly installed, properly sized Duratech DVL stovepipe and fully seasoned wood?

 

[Ashful]

@Ashful, what is your draft on your 30ft chimney without damper? Why is my draft so high? It looks like I need to remove one of those chimney sections but it seemed like I need it to pull some of this creo vapor into the pipe.

Mine runs around 0.16” - 0.18”WC on high without damper.

 

[SpaceBus]

I don't think all of your wood is too wet, just the large pieces. Your fire last night seemed to be made up of sub 3" pieces of firewood. Your stove seems to have stalling issues on larger pieces. Your flue system is not letting anything out as long as your house stays warmer than the outside air. The smell is coming in elsewhere. I have a feeling your house is very tight and well insulated and that window upstairs is providing the make up air for your stove. Further I think your fairly short chimney is contributing to the smell coming back into your house. On a day with no wind smoke will settle near and around my house if my cold starts are a bit slow. With a draft like yours, there's no way the flue is releasing the smell until it comes out the top. If you want to test the house envelope, close all the windows before lightning a cold stove and watch your mag gauge. Without going back several pages, I feel like you said the smell was worse before you extended the chimney.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Would a draft that is higher than the manufacturer specs cause a creasote smell outside the stove? Seems counterintuitive to me. More suction from the house into the atmosphere outside.

Or, is this just being pondered for other reasons?

 

[Highbeam]

Normally the risk with too much draft is abnormal stove performance and stove damage from too much heat. Excessive draft strength works to keep the smoke in the stove and chimney system. We don’t know draft strength until it is measured but it was a double check in this case since his flue net minimum requirements.

There are some theories that too much draft strength sucks air through the firebox in a manner to disrupt the normally laminar flow pattern and cause turbulence that may blow smoke out of odd places. That’s why so many focus on the door gasket. Even bk released a gasket upgrade.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@SpaceBus
None of that makes sense. We get this creo smell with or without the windows open. It's very clearly coming from around the cat probe or collar. The larger logs are burning great: keeping the temp under control and burns through nicely on a lower burn. The small logs blaze the whole firebox into a fireball and rocket the stove into high. When it gets there the flame dies and it starts creating smell (but still nicely burns along, not actually stalling).

The chimney is 23.5ft outside, 2ft inside. I think I will lower that to 21.5ft to lower the draft a bit and keep the temps under control better. We are certainly having issues with that. With a full box it is almost impossible to keep it from getting in the high range. I'm also going to blob a bunch of gasket around the stove collar and see if I can get that sealed off nicely. It seems like it is already much better. Staying smoldering for hours without releasing any smell.

@Highbeam, yes check above. I measured it. It's between 0.09" to 0.16" W.C. About 0.15"W.C. on HIGH.

 

[bholler]

I know you are still skeptical SpaceBus... so I might try a known partially seasoned Beech at some point as a test just to make you happy .

After taking this draft measurement I'm thinking it still might be improper sealing of the stovepipe. When I rebuilt everything, two of the collar screws were not fully through the inner flue and pushing the pipe out a little bit. It might have not been sealing well in the collar, some vapors get around the outside of the inner flue and then can start making smell when they build up. I'm not sure it is still perfectly sealing the flue pipe but it is significantly better sealed after the 3 new screws. I also plugged an extra hole in the outer pipe by collar from an old screw hole. This morning I can just barely smell creo smell sniffing right at the collar and it's been in smoke mode for over an hour. Tstat is set at 55% but temp is still at the "HIGH" range likely because the draft is too high and it can't control temp well.

I wonder if anyone has had this same creo smell issue with a properly installed, properly sized Duratech DVL stovepipe and fully seasoned wood?

There is no reason your stove pipe should need to be totally sealed. We have established it is under a proper vaccum so it will suck air in any gaps.

 

[SpaceBus]

How can airborne creosote particles come out of the probe hole if your flue is clearly under vacuum? Air would be entering around the probe hole, not exiting. My interior masonry chimney was built before code changed to only one appliance per flue and has thimbles upstairs. The thimbles have caps, but obviously no gaskets and they aren't air tight. My clean out door also doesn't have a gasket. I don't get any smell, even burning wood that is steaming out of the ends with three air leaks on top of the stove that also has holes in it.

I clearly misunderstood some of your posts. I was under the impression that if you closed the thermostat below 75% open that your fire would stall and your cat would then stall, when using larger pieces of wood. It makes sense now that your stove almost overheats when using small splits with your high draft. However, why can't the thermostat keep up? Aren't these stoves set it and forget it? I must be missing something.

 

[lsucet]

With a full box it is almost impossible to keep it from getting in the high range

Regardless if full box or just a few pieces, when you close the dial to the point that you hear the click, you should see a black box. No flames at all. Unless I misunderstood you. Don't matter if is 5 minutes or 1 hr into the burn. You shouldn't see flames when you shut the air unless there is a leak or something else. It should not be that hard to control.