BK Ashford 30 Install

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@bholler sure, I just did not want to create another creosote sprayer in my stovepipe. Most of the barbs from the meter kits I looked at were 1/8NPT or so (about 3/8" OD). I wasn't sure what could withstand the heat as well. Most of them have plastic tubes. I see a lot of choices for actual meters, just not sure about the stove/pipe connection.

 

[bholler]

@bholler sure, I just did not want to create another creosote sprayer in my stovepipe. Most of the barbs from the meter kits I looked at were 1/8NPT or so (about 3/8" OD). I wasn't sure what could withstand the heat as well. Most of them have plastic tubes. I see a lot of choices for actual meters, just not sure about the stove/pipe connection.

The stove pipe is under a vacuum so not a sprayer at all.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

You mean most stove pipes should be under vacuum?

 

[Highbeam]

The guys in the bk thread show how they did it by simply pushing a short length of metal tube into the probe hole. Totally temporary and reversible.

Permanent installs into the pipe are possible but not necessary for testing.

Bk provides a spec for high burn but in your case vcs I would want to measure draft at other burn settings as well.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes, cat stoves run best when the cat is active, but visible flame does not diminish the quality of heating when a flame is present. It's not the point of a cat stove. Many cat owners have to run their stoves at a high enough rate so that visible flames are present.

I was merely trying to say that maybe his flame getting snuffed out is the stove operating as intended

 

[bholler]

You mean most stove pipes should be under vacuum?

It is. If it wasn't you wouldn't be able to maintain a fire in the stove and the house would be filled with smoke not just smell. We just need to know if it is the right amount of vacuum

 

[begreen]

You can get one of this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NDKZ1TS/?tag=hearthamazon-20

The range is high for a wood stove. The BK likes to be in the ~.06 range. A manometer reading from 0-.25 would be good. These show up on eBay for $20-30.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NI4JUMY/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Maybe ask your BK dealer to come out and do the measurement?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Don't worry guys, I will find the right gauge . I'm an engineer and do stuff related to measurements and signal processing, just not with wood stoves.

 

[lsucet]

The range is high for a wood stove. The BK likes to be in the ~.06 range. A manometer reading from 0-.25 would be good. These show up on eBay for $20-30.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NI4JUMY/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Maybe ask your BK dealer to come out and do the measurement?

I do have both, and they read the same when measured my draft a few month ago. The Mark ii 25 is ok also and real cheap, i have that for years. it has .05 between 0 and .10 or in minus to the left. either way they both work.

 

[SpaceBus]

So update from this morning. Sycamore is very dry at 17%. Just split one larger ugly this morning. The wetter looking ash is no more than 20%. For about 1hr it was fine this morning, no smell at all with 25°F outside. I turned it down after about 15-20min slowly to about 65% and it slowed down at mid medium range. My wife says there was a very faint amount of creo smell about 2hrs afterwards and it aired out in just a few minutes with the window open upstairs. It had warmed to 32°F.

The reoccurring trends throughout this project:

1. Smaller and lighter woods heat up the box too hot and the stat turns down to far too low of a level for my setup. That's what happened last night. The other nights were not completely filled which means it is less likely to get the stat as hot. Plus I was running some locust which burns slower.
2. Outside temp: Seems to be some sub-optimal range from 30-38 degrees where the draft is lower but the chimney cools too quickly. Above that the chimney stays warmer.

In general everything seems to have made an improvement: the 3ft extension, the 45's, removing the adapter, bypass fully closed. I don't have a draft measurement setup yet still but I'm pretty confident the issue is that my setup can't reliably support tstat below 75% if the stove is too hot. Tiny flames to no flame can't be supported with my draft. It turns down too much and effectively stalls out the wood until it cools enough to get the flow high enough. Where it is running now I can support some relatively good burn times over 10hrs with little to no creo emission. That is a huge improvement. This may be sustainable if I keep my wood averaging above 5lbs vs 1-2lbs and use 20+MBTU wood that burns slow. I have to be careful to not let the box get too hot during startup.

If I want to play it safe I can go back to E-W loads and get nice even 6-8hr burn times with only about 20lbs of wood and there is no creo emitted. I'll see how it's running the next couple days and see if there is a good procedure that keeps it running clean with N-S loads...

I hate to say it again, but this really confirms it from my interpretation; your wood is not dry enough and your reader is off or not calibrated for the temperature you are reading the wood at, or maybe you are getting only surface readings and deeper down there is more moisture. If it runs away on smaller splits but smoulders with larger splits from the same stack, that's wet wood. The fact that the fire, and your heat, collapses under lower primary air settings screams wet fuel. Your draft is almost certainly in spec since you aren't getting loads of smoke in the house with the larger pieces of wood.

Try running another load of small splits and babysit the air control until the stove is putting out the required amount of heat. I know this won't give you long burn times, but it is a good diagnostic.

Have you tried even just a pack of Bio bricks or similar? You don't have to buy a whole pallet.

 

[lsucet]

Many say that their wood is dry when is not, but, I dont think that his issue is related to wood. If that is the case, how many here will have the smell? There is something else going on. including bad draft can give him issues starting the fire etc and possibly not letting him dial it too low, but still no reason for creo smell inside the house. If the stove stall, okay, no reason for smell either.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@SpaceBus

How are you concluding it is wet wood? Im measuring wood sitting in my basement for several days with a Dr. Meter MM with fresh splits. Three measurements parallel to the grain, closer to the ends and one in the middle. The initial ash I had a problem with was seasoned under cover single row for 30 months with sun. It all burns the same. Larger logs are burning more slowly and are not smoldering out.

 

[bholler]

Many say that their wood is dry when is not, but, I dont think that his issue is related to wood. If that is the case, how many here will have the smell? There is something else going on. including bad draft can give him issues starting the fire etc and possibly not letting him dial it too low, but still no reason for creo smell inside the house. If the stove stall, okay, no reason for smell either.

Draft that is to low can absolutely cause smell. The cat stalling can lead to back puffing which can also cause smell.

 

[SpaceBus]

@SpaceBus

How are you concluding it is wet wood? Im measuring wood sitting in my basement for several days with a Dr. Meter MM with fresh splits. Three measurements parallel to the grain, closer to the ends and one in the middle. The initial ash I had a problem with was seasoned under cover single row for 30 months with sun. It all burns the same. Larger logs are burning more slowly and are not smoldering out.

Sorry, I was under the impression that you had hotter fires when using smaller splits than when using larger pieces. Wet wood generally needs more air to burn, which is why you have to run the air open more when trying to burn it. Your symptoms match up well with folks, myself included, that have wet wood. I say a $5 pack of Bio bricks is a cheap diagnostic. If it's not the problem, great, your wood stack is awesome. If your problem gets better with compressed wood products, even better, you know the issue.

 

[lsucet]

Draft that is to low can absolutely cause smell. The cat stalling can lead to back puffing which can also cause smell.

For what I understand he mentioned that it works better on warmer weather than when is cold. I will say that is against logic. If it is draft related I will assume that when cold things improve instead of getting worse.
I know he thinks that the chimney running outside is getting too cold. I don't know what to say. The chimney on one of my setups run outside/ exposed about 70% or more of the total length, 19'. When cold the draft improve way more measured with a manometer. That is what I am not understanding.

 

[bholler]

For what I understand he mentioned that it works better on warmer weather than when is cold. I will say that is against logic. If it is draft related I will assume that when cold things improve instead of getting worse.
I know he thinks that the chimney running outside is getting too cold. I don't know what to say. The chimney on one of my setups run outside/ exposed about 70% or more of the total length, 19'. When cold the draft improve way more measured with a manometer. That is what I am not understanding.

That is why the draft needs to be measured

 

[Ashful]

There have been some pretty good posts about how to measure draft on a bk recently. You can actually use the existing cat probe hole.

I think jetsam originally posted this, and aaronk25 may have tried this, as well. But I would worry about the likelihood of damaging the refractory thru which the cat probe penetrates, jamming any length of metal tubing in there.

I just drilled a 3/16" hole in my double wall telescoping, where it's not visible in back, and have a permanent hookup for mine. If I ever wanted to remove it, I'd just plug it with a screw, easily removable later.

The range is high for a wood stove. The BK likes to be in the ~.06 range. A manometer reading from 0-.25 would be good. These show up on eBay for $20-30.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NI4JUMY/?tag=hearthamazon-20

That's the exact gauge I'm using. Hard to be the Magnehelic, and that's the ideal range for this measurement.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Ok ok guys. Yes I will check the draft. It seems to draft nicely in the 20's or below and hasn't really smelled yet in the 40's surprisingly. It did backpuff and get this vapor ignition the first week in Dec when turning between 50-75% tstat setting. After the 3ft extension I didn't really see that.

I ordered the Dwyer Mark2 plastic gauge. I'm just not sure about what to insert into the cat probe hole. Looking for some type of probe tip that fits the hole (about 5.75mm I believe) and just goes in about 2" or so.

 

[AlbergSteve]

I should have my OAK completed tomorrow and will run the stove for a week and see if there is any improvement in the smell I'm having in the house. IF that doesn't work, my next step is to check draft over time with this. Yeah, it's a bit more money, but it records min/max/avg vacuum and I'll check draft via the stack, thermo hole and ash plug - wanna cover all my bases - I've got to find out what the hell is going on with my stove.

 

[mar13]

I haven't read all posts, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but I noticed earlier it was mentioned an upstairs window was opened to air out the house. I'm confident that this isn't the chief culprit, but it may not be helping the situation. Here is a quote from an article on drafts that I posted a link to a few weeks ago: The fact that the neutral pressure plane follows the leaks is significant. When an upstairs window is opened (in effect, a very large leak), it causes the NPP to rise to its level. This creates a greater level of negative pressure low in the house, and in extreme cases, can cause spillage or backdrafting in a basement hearth.

 

[begreen]

Good observation. Leakage (open window, leaky attic door, dryer or kitchen fan, etc.) at a higher level in the house can cause a lower pressure zone at the lower level of the house.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@mar13 Good thought. If you have an upstairs window open it could reduce some pressure, though in our case we usually open the window after the creo starts. Often I will leave a window cracked in the stove room and there's no effect either way on the creo production. The draft Manometer could help with some of these experiments.

I do have an attic pulldown door in the upstairs hallway that leads to the roof vent, I don't think it is perfectly sealed but cracking the downstairs window should solve that.

 

[maple1]

Ok ok guys. Yes I will check the draft. It seems to draft nicely in the 20's or below and hasn't really smelled yet in the 40's surprisingly. It did backpuff and get this vapor ignition the first week in Dec when turning between 50-75% tstat setting. After the 3ft extension I didn't really see that.

I ordered the Dwyer Mark2 plastic gauge. I'm just not sure about what to insert into the cat probe hole. Looking for some type of probe tip that fits the hole (about 5.75mm I believe) and just goes in about 2" or so.

A length of some kind of metal tubing that the hose will fit over, or that you can fasten a barbed adaptor to that the hose will fit over. I just used a 12"+/- long piece of brakeline out of the brakeline section of my local parts place, had fittings on each end. One end I threaded an adaptor to that I also found in the same place.

 

[Ashful]

A length of some kind of metal tubing that the hose will fit over, or that you can fasten a barbed adaptor to that the hose will fit over. I just used a 12"+/- long piece of brakeline out of the brakeline section of my local parts place, had fittings on each end. One end I threaded an adaptor to that I also found in the same place.

This is exactly the way mine is rigged, too. 3/16 stainless tube into hole in stove pipe, then hi temp rubber hose from stainless tube to magnehelic.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I got a static pressure tip from Dwyer that is 3/16 OD. The dimensions are not all listed anywhere but if it can fit all the way into the probe hole there is a magnet that will hold tight onto the stovetop (till it reaches the Curie temp). It will probably seal off the hole better than the cat probe. Then I got high temp silicone tubing that appears to be rated for this application.

Stove ran nice overnight with about 30lbs E-W loaded. Good 30min-1hr left on active this morning. It's going to be in the upper 50's so I loaded about 20lbs of ash and cherry to keep it warm for the morning and early afternoon.

I'm almost wondering if there is a little creo liquid dripping somewhere in the stove pipe and with a hot stove and not super high draft it is able to release some vapors into the house. For example, my chimney adapter is not super tight and doesn't have a locking ring installed. There is a very slight wobble though it can't move much will all the pipes tight.