BK Ashford 30 in unfinished basement

[Highbeam]

Stove pipe leaks should suck in air, not exhaust it, except for at the end of a burn when draft is down. So you may be right.

Double wall seals better imo. (And helps keep things warm longer, thus keeping an up draft longer.)

Depending on the brand of single wall some can have some very ugly leaks at the joint since the snap-lok seal is thick and the pipe doesn't roll perfectly round. Some brands are better like welded single wall from duravent but much more expensive. Double wall is great for many reasons including fit, draft, and durability with the SS construction.

Since this stove dumps into 8" chimney do you suppose that the already small amount of waste heat is further lost because of the low velocity in the larger pipe? More time in the pipe to cool and become a slug?

I have to admit, seeing that ashford in the basement with an 8" chimney makes me sad. I would have been thrilled to put a king there. Save the pretty ashford for the living room.

AF30.2's are an updated design and we've not had any issues with 30.2's that were not solved by a proper installation.

Glad to hear that the 30.2 had changes made that might reduce the likelihood of this smoke leakage issue.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, the slow down of the gases (because the total mass flow through the cross section will remain the same) will necessarily lead to cooler gases - exacerbated by the increased heat loss rate of single wall pipes.

Yes, I was only familiar with the crappy single wall. (I had some initially.)

Maybe the OP is going to finish the basement. (Or hates the look of a King - wouldn't be a first )
I do like that it's fully free standing.

 

[NewToVT]

Thanks everyone for your input, I’ll let you know what happens. Seems like it’s an installation issue and not a stove issue. The installers are coming back next week to check it out and see what they can do.

 

[Dieselhead]

Try a lit incense stick around the suspect area during different times of the burn cycle to see if the incense is getting either sucked in or blown away.

 

[NewToVT]

One more piece of information:

I have a ThermaQ WiFi tracker with Auber magnetic probe on the stove pipe, so I have the chart of the stove pipe temps from the initial burn and the subsequent burn.

I also have a BlueAir air purifier in the basement that tracks air quality (PM 1, PM 2.5, PM 10), and I can see the historical chart on that as well.

During the initial burn there was obviously a very strong chemical smell and the particulate measures went through the roof on the purifier (700+), but I don’t remember a wood smoke smell and I checked in on the stove frequently. It’s possible the chemical smell was so strong it overpowered it, but I don’t think so.

The chemical smell/smoke gradually dropped off over several hours until the air purifier air quality indicators all dropped to 0 and then stayed there for a few hours, indicating that there was no wood smoke during that time.

Then the PM counts started to slowly rise. At the same time the thermaQ chart shows an initial dip in stove pipe temps, and then an even greater rise, that looks very different than the temp pattern up to that point. I did not do anything with the stove during that time. The wood smoke smell became noticeable on the main floor a bit later.

After that we’ve been dealing with some level of wood smoke, and the purifier PM count never drops to 0 while the stove is operating, but I think *maybe* this wood smoke issue wasn’t there initially.

Thoughts?

 

[Highbeam]

One more piece of information:

I have a ThermaQ WiFi tracker with Auber magnetic probe on the stove pipe, so I have the chart of the stove pipe temps from the initial burn and the subsequent burn.

I also have a BlueAir air purifier in the basement that tracks air quality (PM 1, PM 2.5, PM 10), and I can see the historical chart on that as well.

During the initial burn there was obviously a very strong chemical smell and the particulate measures went through the roof on the purifier (700+), but I don’t remember a wood smoke smell and I checked in on the stove frequently. It’s possible the chemical smell was so strong it overpowered it, but I don’t think so.

The chemical smell/smoke gradually dropped off over several hours until the air purifier air quality indicators all dropped to 0 and then stayed there for a few hours, indicating that there was no wood smoke during that time.

Then the PM counts started to slowly rise. At the same time the thermaQ chart shows an initial dip in stove pipe temps, and then an even greater rise, that looks very different than the temp pattern up to that point. I did not do anything with the stove during that time. The wood smoke smell became noticeable on the main floor a bit later.

After that we’ve been dealing with some level of wood smoke, and the purifier PM count never drops to 0 while the stove is operating, but I think *maybe* this wood smoke issue wasn’t there initially.

Thoughts?

Since this stove is thermostatically controlled it will open and close the throttle to maintain stove temp. It's pretty great but can be "bouncy". That can certainly cause the flue temps to cycle correspondingly. Sounds like you had a stall event and then the stove powered through it when the thermostat opened up in response to low stove temps. Are you running the stove at a quite low output?

 

[NewToVT]

Since this stove is thermostatically controlled it will open and close the throttle to maintain stove temp. It's pretty great but can be "bouncy". That can certainly cause the flue temps to cycle correspondingly. Sounds like you had a stall event and then the stove powered through it when the thermostat opened up in response to low stove temps. Are you running the stove at a quite low output?

I’ve mostly kept the thermostat in the medium/high range but at the time this happened it was towards the end of the burn cycle so it was probably at a low/lower fuel stage at this point.

I’m just pondering why there seemed to be a wood smoke issue after this particular event, but maybe not before, even after allowing the stove to cool completely and then starting it back up a couple of days later, but might just be coincidental.

 

[stoveliker]

Before and after conclusions would need more data than one fire in the "before-bin" for proper statistics imo.

 

[bigealta]

What were the wind gusts then and from what direction?

 

[Tron]

Then the PM counts started to slowly rise.

I also have a DIY air monitor near the stove, but for some reason it varies. I usually see a spike in PM after a hot reload (unsurprisingly), but have also seen that gradual rise during the burn you mentioned. Although well below any serious levels, and it may not have to do anything with the stove at all but rather with the weather. Inversion weather can decrease outside air quality pretty quickly.

 

[NewToVT]

Before and after conclusions would need more data than one fire in the "before-bin" for proper statistics imo.

I was just thinking maybe something happened at that point, like the stove pipe expanded or something and then we started getting the smoke smell,

 

[NewToVT]

What were the wind gusts then and from what direction?

I don’t know the answer to that unfortunately, but there was a squall that moved through in the early morning so that may have been around that time.

Our property is particularly windy in general. I’ve seen high wind chimney caps. I wonder if that would help.

 

[NewToVT]

I also have a DIY air monitor near the stove, but for some reason it varies. I usually see a spike in PM after a hot reload (unsurprisingly), but have also seen that gradual rise during the burn you mentioned. Although well below any serious levels, and it may not have to do anything with the stove at all but rather with the weather. Inversion weather can decrease outside air quality pretty quickly.

Good point. I actually saw a random rise yesterday, when the stove was not on. I bought the purifier to monitor things in the basement shortly before the stove was installed, so didn’t have a lot of historical data 😁

During the second burn the PM levels were always in the acceptable range (according to the purifier rating), and I wouldn’t be concerned about the small rise if not for the wood smoke smell.

 

[Tron]

This is PM 1.0, 2.5 & 10 over the last 24h.
I guess you can easily see when I reloaded the stove, and you'll see that it took a while to get down after the first reload.
Why the first spike is so much higher than the second one, I have no idea. Maybe just less air movement around the room at night when I have the ceiling fan off.

 

[NewToVT]

This is PM 1.0, 2.5 & 10 over the last 24h.
I guess you can easily see when I reloaded the stove, and you'll see that it took a while to get down after the first reload.
Why the first spike is so much higher than the second one, I have no idea. Maybe just less air movement around the room at night when I have the ceiling fan off.

View attachment 336886

Interesting, good to know. Hopefully, we’ll get the wood smoke smell issue resolved tomorrow, but seems like the purifier may still react, and that’s not necessarily an issue.

 

[bigealta]

This is PM 1.0, 2.5 & 10 over the last 24h.
I guess you can easily see when I reloaded the stove, and you'll see that it took a while to get down after the first reload.
Why the first spike is so much higher than the second one, I have no idea. Maybe just less air movement around the room at night when I have the ceiling fan off.

View attachment 336886

Looks like you open door for reload and smoke/gasses come out. Also when reloading in my stove, i see the splits can push smoke out by the "sail" affect that their shapes may have.
Long wide flat splits seem to grab the most smoke and push it out the open door on reloads.

 

[Tron]

Looks like you open door for reload

I guess that's how most people do it ;-)
But yes, a little smoke spillage is unavoidable when doing a hot reload. Nature of the beast, i.e, every type of stove.
It's less when there are only coals left, I think on the first reload there still was some unburnt but charred wood left over. That might explain it.

 

[bigealta]

I guess that's how most people do it ;-)
But yes, a little smoke spillage is unavoidable when doing a hot reload. Nature of the beast, i.e, every type of stove.
It's less when there are only coals left, I think on the first reload there still was some unburnt but charred wood left over. That might explain it.

Yup that would explain it. Not all stoves spill smoke on door openings.
They should not, but some do for various reasons.
Yours looks to be a leaker.

 

[Tron]

Yours looks to be a leaker.

Not really, no spikes today and low-level PM's.
The roombas contribute a bit to it, I'd guess, they have a HEPA filter but I don't think they're that good with small particles.

 

[Highbeam]

But yes, a little smoke spillage is unavoidable when doing a hot reload. Nature of the beast, i.e, every type of stove.

As a current burner of two stoves and a previous stone noncat where my princess sits now, the non BKs haven't spilled a whiff of smoke. My theory is that less efficient stoves send more heat up the stack and are able to gulp more room air without burping smoke out into the room.

The BK easily spills smoke when loading. It's pretty bad and hard to prevent at any stage of the combustion cycle. I might agree that it is the nature of the BK design with the bypass opening lower than the door top. Or maybe the bypass is just too small for to avoid spillage.

 

[Tron]

the non BKs haven't spilled a whiff of smoke.

The BK easily spills smoke when loading.

I haven't owned a non-cat, but certainly believe you.
But if that's the catch for having a stove that can deliver constant heat output at high efficiency, I'm willing to live with that.

 

[begreen]

As a current burner of two stoves and a previous stone noncat where my princess sits now, the non BKs haven't spilled a whiff of smoke. My theory is that less efficient stoves send more heat up the stack and are able to gulp more room air without burping smoke out into the room.

The BK easily spills smoke when loading. It's pretty bad and hard to prevent at any stage of the combustion cycle. I might agree that it is the nature of the BK design with the bypass opening lower than the door top. Or maybe the bypass is just too small for to avoid spillage.

This sounds like why BK bumped up the minimum flue system height a bit after your Princess was installed. Have you tried adding 3 ft of warm air pipe as a temporary test to see if that reduces spillage?

 

[Tron]

Have you tried adding 3 ft of warm air pipe as a temporary test to see if that reduces spillage?

I think the minimum (depending on conditions, of course) is 15'.
I have roughly 25' with two 45-degree bends in the attic, and I still see some spillage.
But when it's cold out, the draft is better, so that should happen less often, then.

 

[begreen]

I think the minimum (depending on conditions, of course) is 15'.
I have roughly 25' with two 45-degree bends in the attic, and I still see some spillage.
But when it's cold out, the draft is better, so that should happen less often, then.

Yes, Highbeam's stove is a lot older. IIRC back then, the old minimum was 12 ft.

 

[stoveliker]

I have to (anecdotally) disagree with BKs being smoke leakers.
In fact I find that a small Drolet on a 20 ft straight up interior pipe leaks smoke whereas my BK never does when the bypass is open. Not even when I fully load it with splits to the brick in front and all the way up to the bottom of the cat (i.e. restricting flow to the bypass opening in the back).

My thoughts were that the smoke in my case is sucked *to the back* of the firebox where the bypass opening is, whereas the Drolet has its exit at the front right above the door .

Also the air wash in the BK is likely to be lower than the bypass opening.

So, I would suggest to not take the observations above as generic truths, but as system dependent anecdotal case observations - just like mine.