EPA looking to delay 2020 Emission Regulations

[brenndatomu]

Yeah I just don't see where being forced to clean things up is a bad thing...they sure as heck aren't gonna do it on their own apparently! Before the EPA stepped in back in 1988 on wood stoves, nothing much had changed since we first started using metal to contain a fire inside the home...what, 200 years?
Nobody would like it if the automotive industry never changed/upgraded...just think if the Mustang or Camaro in 2018 was the same as what we had in 1982...YUCK!
And I know people squawk about added cost...I don't think there is much added expense to the manufacturers really...sure they jack up the price, but they are just using the EPA regs as an excuse to do so...the cost of just doing business today adds WAAAAY more to the price than any EPA emissions mandate.
The EPA regs have been good for wood stoves IMO...its time for wood furnaces and boilers to get on board too...

 

[bholler]

Yeah I just don't see where being forced to clean things up is a bad thing...they sure as heck aren't gonna do it on their own apparently! Before the EPA stepped in back in 1988 on wood stoves, nothing much had changed since we first started using metal to contain a fire inside the home...what, 200 years?
Nobody would like it if the automotive industry never changed/upgraded...just think if the Mustang or Camaro in 2018 was the same as what we had in 1982...YUCK!
And I know people squawk about added cost...I don't think there is much added expense to the manufacturers really...sure they jack up the price, but they are just using the EPA regs as an excuse to do so...the cost of just doing business today adds WAAAAY more to the price than any EPA emissions mandate.
The EPA regs have been good for wood stoves IMO...its time for wood furnaces and boilers to get on board too...

The prices for stoves compliant with the 2020 standard didnt really go up much because of that. In fact many stoves didnt have to change at all. And as i said earlier when you look at the prices of stoves today factoring in inflation they really dont cost more than they did pre epa standards.

 

[Highbeam]

Nobody would like it if the automotive industry never changed/upgraded...just think if the Mustang or Camaro in 2018 was the same as what we had in 1982...YUCK!

Hold on now, that junk in the 70s and 80s was a direct result of emissions and safety strangulation plus some pretty poor engineering to try and just barely pass the tests. Try comparing the machines from the 60s to the current ones. The new stuff is excellent but I wouldn't exactly say yuck about a nice 60s Camaro.

 

[bholler]

Hold on now, that junk in the 70s and 80s was a direct result of emissions and safety strangulation plus some pretty poor engineering to try and just barely pass the tests. Try comparing the machines from the 60s to the current ones. The new stuff is excellent but I wouldn't exactly say yuck about a nice 60s Camaro.

Ok so my comparison of woodstove to wood furnaces was irrelevant but deisel trucks and muscle cars are?

And btw even the highest powered muscle cars stock from the 60s will get outrun my many run of the mill cars today. While those new cars use a fraction of the gas and produce a fraction of the pollution.

 

[bholler]

Hold on now, that junk in the 70s and 80s was a direct result of emissions and safety strangulation plus some pretty poor engineering to try and just barely pass the tests. Try comparing the machines from the 60s to the current ones. The new stuff is excellent but I wouldn't exactly say yuck about a nice 60s Camaro.

And btw when was the last time you drove a car from the 60s? I drove one today and while i love them and think they are fun but compared to comperable modern stuff the driving experince is kind of yuck.

 

[brenndatomu]

Manual drum brakes...and steering...yuck!

Hold on now, that junk in the 70s and 80s was a direct result of emissions and safety strangulation plus some pretty poor engineering to try and just barely pass the tests. Try comparing the machines from the 60s to the current ones. The new stuff is excellent but I wouldn't exactly say yuck about a nice 60s Camaro.

Yeah, because they were just trying to skate by...just like a lot of the boiler and furnace makers are/were...and when squeezed it seems technology and improvements seem to miraculously appear, at least in certain industries.
And yeah, I gotta agree with bholler, the old muscle cars are fun to polish up and take to the car show...and maybe shoot down the strip once in a while...but commute, nah...I'll take a modern car any day. (or at least something made in the last 20 years)

 

[Ashful]

Hold on now, that junk in the 70s and 80s was a direct result of emissions and safety strangulation plus some pretty poor engineering to try and just barely pass the tests. Try comparing the machines from the 60s to the current ones. The new stuff is excellent but I wouldn't exactly say yuck about a nice 60s Camaro.

You started off strong, but you lose me on that last sentence, Highbeam. Next to today’s top of the model range products, a 1960’s Camaro is a turd, in absolutely every possible way.

They win serious style and nostalgia points, but let’s not try to call them “good”.


http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/06...ter-than-corvette-ferrari-at-nurburgring.html

 

[JRHAWK9]

You started off strong, but you lose me on that last sentence, Highbeam. Next to today’s top of the model range products, a 1960’s Camaro is a turd, in absolutely every possible way.

They win serious style and nostalgia points, but let’s not try to call them “good”.


http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/06...ter-than-corvette-ferrari-at-nurburgring.html

That article's old. The ZR1 beats the ZL1.

 

[Ashful]

That article's old. The ZR1 beats the ZL1.

Yep... and they both beat any Camaro from 1969.

 

[bholler]

Yep... and they both beat any Camaro from 1969.

I bet the v6 camaro would beat any 1969 one to. It definatly would in turns

 

[Highbeam]

Nostalgia does mean a lot to me. I like switching to high beams with the foot button and I like feeling the secondaries of the carb open through the throttle cable.

 

[maple1]

I'll take one of those '69s everyone is turning down. Please.

 

[Ashful]

Nostalgia does mean a lot to me. I like switching to high beams with the foot button and I like feeling the secondaries of the carb open through the throttle cable.

Totally agreed, man. I’m right there with you. I’ve owned several classic hot rods, but my daily driver is modern. The classics are fun, but not because they’re particularly good drivers, almost the opposite.

BTW, @bholler, someone did a lateral g test on a 1969 Camaro SS, and achieved 0.81g. No where near my new sedan, and I’m sure miles short of a Camaro ZL1. The v6 Camaros are cheapened up in every way, including suspension and tires, to hit low price points. I’ll have to look up their numbers when I get a moment, but you may be right on them beating 0.81g.

Edit: just looked them up:

Camaro ZL1 lateral = 1.11g
Camaro RS v6 lateral = 0.92g

Bholler is right!

 

[bholler]

Nostalgia does mean a lot to me. I like switching to high beams with the foot button and I like feeling the secondaries of the carb open through the throttle cable.

I like all of that to. Like i said i really enjoy classics. But none of that makes those old care better performers in any way.

 

[Highbeam]

I like all of that to. Like i said i really enjoy classics. But none of that makes those old care better performers in any way.

For sure. Performance of a 50 year old vehicle is obviously lower in just about every way.

 

[Highbeam]

So how can we apply this dialogue to our current furnace issue?

The currently legal (2015+) furnace is pretty good. Like an automobile from the 2000 era. You can’t smell it when you’re driving behind it and people have a hard time dying when trying to run them in closed garages to kill themselves.

The new stuff will be even cleaner burning but nobody will notice. They will still see startup smoke and see visible steam, see your wood pile and be jealous of the cheap heat so they will think you’re polluting. Due to low numbers of People actually burning wood for heat I propose we’re already past “peak wood smoke pollution” and now it’s just the folks that don’t want any wood burning creating ever stricter regulations. Maybe?

 

[brenndatomu]

So how can we apply this dialogue to our current furnace issue?

The currently legal (2015+) furnace is pretty good. Like an automobile from the 2000 era. You can’t smell it when you’re driving behind it and people have a hard time dying when trying to run them in closed garages to kill themselves.

The new stuff will be even cleaner burning but nobody will notice. They will still see startup smoke and see visible steam, see your wood pile and be jealous of the cheap heat so they will think you’re polluting. Due to low numbers of People actually burning wood for heat I propose we’re already past “peak wood smoke pollution” and now it’s just the folks that don’t want any wood burning creating ever stricter regulations. Maybe?

Yeah the 2020 regs might be overkill...but prior to 2015 (2017) it was the wild wild west out there...something needed to be done to give the manufacturers still using caveman technology a kick in the rear...

 

[Highbeam]

Yeah the 2020 regs might be overkill...but prior to 2015 (2017) it was the wild wild west out there...something needed to be done to give the manufacturers still using caveman technology a kick in the rear...

Absolutely, but it is only fair to recognize that the newest 2015 regs have wet ink!

Selfish note. None of these, not even the kuma are clean enough or legal for my state.

 

[salecker]

Yep... and they both beat any Camaro from 1969.

I wouldn't say any Camaro from the 60's there have been some awesome builds on the old platform that will put any new North American car to shame.
Lots of Money and about the only thing 60's is the body.
Oh yea then there are the COPO Camaro's which are another story.

 

[bholler]

So how can we apply this dialogue to our current furnace issue?

The currently legal (2015+) furnace is pretty good. Like an automobile from the 2000 era. You can’t smell it when you’re driving behind it and people have a hard time dying when trying to run them in closed garages to kill themselves.

The new stuff will be even cleaner burning but nobody will notice. They will still see startup smoke and see visible steam, see your wood pile and be jealous of the cheap heat so they will think you’re polluting. Due to low numbers of People actually burning wood for heat I propose we’re already past “peak wood smoke pollution” and now it’s just the folks that don’t want any wood burning creating ever stricter regulations. Maybe?

Yes you are absolutly right 2015 compliant furnaces are much better than old ones. But they can be better. And without stricter regs most manufacturers will not innovate on their own.

 

[bholler]

I wouldn't say any Camaro from the 60's there have been some awesome builds on the old platform that will put any new North American car to shame.
Lots of Money and about the only thing 60's is the body.
Oh yea then there are the COPO Camaro's which are another story.

Even the copo camaros will get embarrassed by even moderate modern performane cars. As an example my buddy has a 1969 judge which while far from a copo it was pretty fast for its day. Just for fun i raced him in my wifes 2014 escape titanium with the 2.0 ecoboost. And i easily beat him. Oh and her car easily get mid 20s mpg. Upper 20s on the highway.

That is the biggest difference the performace new cars get while burning clean and being able to get pretty good mpg is amazing.

 

[woodey]

Yeah the 2020 regs might be overkill

Yeah, maybe overkill but achievable

 

[Ashful]

For sure. Performance of a 50 year old vehicle is obviously lower in just about every way.

So how can we apply this dialogue to our current furnace issue?

New stoves are better than old stoves. New furnaces are better than old furnaces.

I wouldn't say any Camaro from the 60's there have been some awesome builds on the old platform that will put any new North American car to shame.

I was speaking factory vehicles. But since you bring it up, I doubt that any build on any 1960's chassis will put a Dodge Demon or Camaro ZR1 to shame. 850+ horsepower in a package that exceeds 1g lateral is just hard to beat without millions of dollars of engineering effort. I drive an SRT, and the handling just amazes me for a big 4300 lb. full-size sedan with a honking big 6.4L Hemi 392 under the hood. Not the fastest car on earth, but it really is an amazing blend of performance characteristics, which I've never achieved in any of my home-grown builds.

 

[Highbeam]

New stoves are better than old stoves. New furnaces are better than old furnaces.


I was speaking factory vehicles. But since you bring it up, I doubt that any build on any 1960's chassis will put a Dodge Demon or Camaro ZR1 to shame. 850+ horsepower in a package that exceeds 1g lateral is just hard to beat without millions of dollars of engineering effort. I drive an SRT, and the handling just amazes me for a big 4300 lb. full-size sedan with a honking big 6.4L Hemi 392 under the hood. Not the fastest car on earth, but it really is an amazing blend of performance characteristics, which I've never achieved in any of my home-grown builds.

The situation at hand isn’t about new furnaces vs. old ones. You can buy some new stuff that is junk! This thread started about those (the) furnace meeting a 2020 standard vs. those meeting the 2015 regulations. Is the incremental improvement in emissions required by those 2020 regulations worth the cost of removing all other furnaces from the market?

Myself, I don’t think so. It speaks volumes that there were no requirements for furnaces to meet any emissions criteria for the last 100 years and suddenly we have a rapid progression of tight and new criteria that leave only one very small vendor compliant.

I like clean air and appreciate a clear smoke plume. I would like emissions regulations that are driven by actual necessary air quality levels and not just as clean as possible.

 

[bholler]

The situation at hand isn’t about new furnaces vs. old ones. You can buy some new stuff that is junk! This thread started about those (the) furnace meeting a 2020 standard vs. those meeting the 2015 regulations. Is the incremental improvement in emissions required by those 2020 regulations worth the cost of removing all other furnaces from the market?

Myself, I don’t think so. It speaks volumes that there were no requirements for furnaces to meet any emissions criteria for the last 100 years and suddenly we have a rapid progression of tight and new criteria that leave only one very small vendor compliant.

I like clean air and appreciate a clear smoke plume. I would like emissions regulations that are driven by actual necessary air quality levels and not just as clean as possible.

No it started because they decided to change the rules after the responsible companies had already put the money into meeting those regulations which they had been told were set in stone.

You bring up the fact that there were no emissions regs on them for hundreds of years until 2015. And how many companies innovated on their own to clean up their furnaces????