EPA looking to delay 2020 Emission Regulations

[Mojappa]

Some people with OWB really do abuse the kindness of their neighbors. There are some valleys I drive through on cold mornings, you can barely bare to drive through...let alone live in. I'd be knocking on that guys door and having a real "come to Jesus" talk with him.

Problem is most of those people “know what they’re doing” and cannot under any circumstances be re-educated in anything that might threaten “what they know”. It is a depressing human condition that appears at an uninspiring high rate in many different facets

 

[DoubleB]

I think this conversation needs someone on this site to propose what the EPA limits for 2023 and 2026 should be, and the rationale for them.

Or are the limits for 2020 good enough?

It seems to be unforgivable on this site to question whether the limits have merit, or whether 3 years (since 2015) is enough time for most manufacturers to pass emissions tests. So are you instead willing to lay out a long-term emissions plan and rationale so that those manufacturers have no excuse in everyone's mind?

 

[woodey]

. He just planned ahead...no doubt to make some more of those profits.

How dare a company to "plan ahead" and to EXCEED federally mandated standards..As for profits it seems to me that the ones who chose to kick the can down the road and not invest into making a better product are the ones putting profit ahead of all else.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

Funny, I purchased the Kuuma for there niche and price. There niche being easy to use, set it and forget it. Funnier, It appears the kuuma runs cleaner and better with wood on the wetter side, as in Burns better at 22% than 15% moisture. Win Win, No?

This part of the article sums it up the issue, as I understand it. From the article posted on blogspot

"Since the 2015 regulations went into effect, scores of wood and pellet stoves and boilers have been tested to meet the 2020 standards and most prices have not gone up significantly. The 2015 regulations began a process of requiring that manufacturers test and report their efficiencies, and delaying the 2020 deadline would set back efficiency disclosures, harming the ability of consumers to choose more efficient appliances."

OP says his stoves meet 20 regulations. Great. Now he is ticked off that others might have an extension for more time.

It is totally hypocritical to say that "Big business throwing their weight around..." when he himself is in the very same business segment he is claiming throws its weight around. He just planned ahead...no doubt to make some more of those profits. Normal to any business, I think.

Then in the letter...
"What good are jobs if you're too sick or dead to even work? Or if family and friends are getting sick from air pollution?"

That is pretty silly point coming from a manufacturer of a woodstove. Honestly...how efficient are any of our stoves on startup? How many of us ALWAYS have the perfect wood to burn? Do you think everyone who runs a woodstove takes the care most of us here on this website use?

If the OP believes smoke at the 2015 reg kills people, he needs to get out of the business, because most people aren't running their stoves with dry wood. Those stoves may never see the claimed numbers in a study.

I apologize for making a short statement and not explaining myself. I dropped a grenade that didn't make much sense.

 

[maple1]

It is totally hypocritical to say that "Big business throwing their weight around..." when he himself is in the very same business segment he is claiming throws its weight around.

But they weren't throwing their weight around. And they are not big business - they are small. You're generalizing on that one. They were playing by the rules, in good faith, ultimately at cost to themselves.

I still am not seeing what you are seeing.

 

[E Yoder]

Question for lampmfg- how do I keep informed on this situation as it unfolds? I think I signed up for email updates from the federal register, but haven't gotten one for a long time.

 

[lampmfg]

Question for lampmfg- how do I keep informed on this situation as it unfolds? I think I signed up for email updates from the federal register, but haven't gotten one for a long time.

I'm not 100% sure - The Alliance for Green Heat has been our best resource. We also have e-mail chains going back and forth with our state politicians.

 

[E Yoder]

Thanks, I watch AGH too.

 

[sportbikerider78]

But they weren't throwing their weight around. And they are not big business - they are small. You're generalizing on that one. .

I didn't say big, I said segment.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Funny, I purchased the Kuuma for there niche and price. There niche being easy to use, set it and forget it. Funnier, It appears the kuuma runs cleaner and better with wood on the wetter side, as in Burns better at 22% than 15% moisture. Win Win, No?

That's great. I'm glad you are happy with your stove.

 

[BoiledOver]

OP says his stoves meet 20 regulations. Great. Now he is ticked off that others might have an extension for more time.

Would you be ticked off, or happy as a cat if you were in lampmfg shoes?

Changing the rules during the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl to favor one team or the other is equivalent to what is going on with this issue. If that is cool with you, ok. The playing field was level for ALL of the manufacturers and there was obviously enough time to get up to speed.

Your responses in this thread seemed a bit harsh towards Lamppa Manufacturing and I asked of your logic in an attempt to understand something I might be missing. If you can elaborate further why you see the family outfit as the bad guys here, I am all ears.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Changing the rules during the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl to favor one team or the other is equivalent to what is going on with this issue.

The EPA tried pulling a similar stunt after they had already passed and completed the testing! They were pretty much just waiting for the EPA to issue their Phase 2 certification and were notified how the "test was changed" after everything was said and done. I'll let Garrett elaborate more if he so chooses to do so.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Would you be ticked off, or happy as a cat if you were in lampmfg shoes?

Changing the rules during the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl to favor one team or the other is equivalent to what is going on with this issue. If that is cool with you, ok. The playing field was level for ALL of the manufacturers and there was obviously enough time to get up to speed.

Your responses in this thread seemed a bit harsh towards Lamppa Manufacturing and I asked of your logic in an attempt to understand something I might be missing. If you can elaborate further why you see the family outfit as the bad guys here, I am all ears.

I did..post #24.

You think being ahead of the game is a competitive disadvantage? Are you joking with me?

To answer your question..i would be thrilled! I would also be thrilled my competition sucks!

He now has a more fuel efficient stove. Less emissions than the competition and what I assume, is a competitively priced product AND first to market!
I'm an outside sales engineer for a living..if he or his sales guy can't sell with these advantages, he needs to seriously consider who is selling his product.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

I am thinking the sales are just fine as there is a back log of work for them. Hence building a bigger place. This does not change the fact of fairness in the rules.

 

[brenndatomu]

This whole thing reminds me a bit of high school...you study your butt off to pass the SAT test, and then take it as soon as you can...everybody else drags there feet, then after you pass it, the procrastinators ask for more time...and to take the test open book!
Sounds fair to me...

 

[DoubleB]

This whole thing reminds me a bit of high school...you study your butt off to pass the SAT test, and then take it as soon as you can...everybody else drags there feet, then after you pass it, the procrastinators ask for more time...and to take the test open book!
Sounds fair to me...

Yep, I'm the nerd who has been in those shoes a number of times. And sometimes the teacher or professor realizes that they made a mistake, that even if DoubleB is the only student who passed the exam, they realize and I agree that it's not helping anyone by flunking all of the other engineering students who still will do decent work once released to society. That's different than weeding out the underperformers.

IIRC the "test" was finalized in 2015, and it look Lamppa a lot longer than that to get it right. I'm pretty impressed for sure. It was a bet on an uncertain future, and they were right. But I don't think we can say that the others were procrastinating. Even since 2015, those of us in product development know that 3 years is not much time to develop new things with stringent requirements.

For those others of you who are preparing to skewer me, I'll just ask if you thought 5 years ago that the Caddy (became my Tundra) was an awful polluter. If you're honest and think it has been decent for its era, then can you propose what the emissions limits should be for 2023 and 2026, just so I can agree with you that manufacturers will have plenty of time to know and design for the new rules? And if you're not willing to propose what those limits should be 5 years from now, then why are you so hostilely defending the 5 year interval from 2015 to 2020?

 

[JRHAWK9]

IIRC the "test" was finalized in 2015, and it look Lamppa a lot longer than that to get it right. I'm pretty impressed for sure. It was a bet on an uncertain future, and they were right. But I don't think we can say that the others were procrastinating. Even since 2015, those of us in product development know that 3 years is not much time to develop new things with stringent requirements.

For those others of you who are preparing to skewer me, I'll just ask if you thought 5 years ago that the Caddy (became my Tundra) was an awful polluter. If you're honest and think it has been decent for its era, then can you propose what the emissions limits should be for 2023 and 2026, just so I can agree with you that manufacturers will have plenty of time to know and design for the new rules? And if you're not willing to propose what those limits should be 5 years from now, then why are you so hostilely defending the 5 year interval from 2015 to 2020?

They all knew it was coming though, just like Daryl did.....they'd be a fool to think otherwise. The writing was on the wall for many years. Some chose to do something about it, think/act progressively and make a difference. Others just sat back and waited for big brother to force them to do something and then when that time came they started crying about how it's not enough time. I don't think it's as much about the 3 or 5 years or whatever it is as it is the fact they are going to be using the extension they are fighting for NOT for product development but to give them more time to fight/lobby against the certification in it's entirety. This is what Lamppa is most concerned about I'm guessing. It's not like the VF is the only wood burning appliance to pass phase 2, other quality gassification boilers have as well. I don't know how any big company can look anybody in the eyes and state they "aren't capable" when a family business of 7 people way up in B.F.E. accomplished it with zero R&D budget in comparison. It's quite laughable to me.

 

[maple1]

Yep, I'm the nerd who has been in those shoes a number of times. And sometimes the teacher or professor realizes that they made a mistake, that even if DoubleB is the only student who passed the exam, they realize and I agree that it's not helping anyone by flunking all of the other engineering students who still will do decent work once released to society. That's different than weeding out the underperformers.

IIRC the "test" was finalized in 2015, and it look Lamppa a lot longer than that to get it right. I'm pretty impressed for sure. It was a bet on an uncertain future, and they were right. But I don't think we can say that the others were procrastinating. Even since 2015, those of us in product development know that 3 years is not much time to develop new things with stringent requirements.

For those others of you who are preparing to skewer me, I'll just ask if you thought 5 years ago that the Caddy (became my Tundra) was an awful polluter. If you're honest and think it has been decent for its era, then can you propose what the emissions limits should be for 2023 and 2026, just so I can agree with you that manufacturers will have plenty of time to know and design for the new rules? And if you're not willing to propose what those limits should be 5 years from now, then why are you so hostilely defending the 5 year interval from 2015 to 2020?

Not 100% the point IMO. We could assume that the 2020 regs will be it - they won't be tightened up more. It's not all about that. Lots of $$ was also spent in just getting the certification - that's likely as big a part of it as making a burner that would meet the requirements. Other manufacturers & dealers had a real long tough go getting that certification even starting with a clean burner, at big business risk, and in good faith, now only to see the 'other guys' get cut a huge break from all their whining about it. I.e., all the flunking students in the above exam example didn't crack a book or put any effort in.

 

[Highbeam]

To answer your question..i would be thrilled! I would also be thrilled my competition sucks!

He now has a more fuel efficient stove. Less emissions than the competition and what I assume, is a competitively priced product AND first to market!
I'm an outside sales engineer for a living..if he or his sales guy can't sell with these advantages, he needs to seriously consider who is selling his product.

Those are great advantages for the Kuuma. But you know what would be even better? It would really be great for Kuuma if all other furnaces were illegal to sell. That would make Kuuma the only choice and really the ultimate competitive advantage that was at stake here. Kuuma will continue to sell based on those other advantages but without the monopoly.

This isn't like one guy in an engineering class passing the test so the whole test gets thrown out. This is like the guy that graduated with an engineering degree compared to a engineering school dropout with a basket weaving degree.

As a potential furnace buyer, I would consider all options and all specifications including cost. The emissions being better than 2015 is no big deal and the efficiency is only so-so for any of the furnaces including kuuma. All other furnaces being off the market is a game changer advantage that was to be won by all other companies failing. Just like when all of the engineering school dropouts become basket weavers.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The good news is lampmgf is ahead of the curve. A good place to be. I do think their hard work will pay off. Its a balancing act for the EPA. Lots of jobs and companies at stake. I can see both sides of this issue.

 

[lampmfg]

First - I want to thank everyone for the support we receive on here!
Second- There is a lot of excellent points that everyone has brought up regarding the testing and EPA regulations
Third- It's tough for us to plan anything now. We spent a lot of time, especially since 2013 when this stuff was really getting talked about deciding on how to move forward. When this was finalized in 2015 we set-up our plan for testing to meet the 2017 deadline. We could write a whole book on that process and being the guinea pigs. While planning this out, we've been working with our city (Tower, MN) which has been in severe decline for many years and even lost the high school. We are supposed to start building a modest new factory in the next month but now with this latest potential EPA set back it has been difficult to finalize.
Fourth- Budget furnaces being sold at big box stores definitely affected our sales the past couple of years because I'm very confident if they hadn't come to the market we would be busy building furnaces 12 months a year instead of 6. However, we stayed the course with our plan with our eyes on the big picture. They made the decision to spend $ developing these new models every year and R & D'ing them on the public knowing they had no chance to be compliant with the 2020 regulations. I think our pricing is currently very fair for what you get and if others can pass they will be priced similarly.

 

[Ashful]

... I agree that it's not helping anyone by flunking all of the other engineering students who still will do decent work once released to society. That's different than weeding out the underperformers.

Not that this poor analogy needs more discussion, but I’d tend to disagree. It’s one in twenty who are worth their title, if not fewer. When you manage to find a truly competent one, who managed to correctly interpret and retain most of what they were tought in school, hold on with both hands at any cost. Too many somehow coasted thru, without ever really learning the required material, lacking the ability to productively apply it. Most universities should be downright ashamed of the low bar they’ve set for passing undergraduate students in STEM fields, but it’s financial concerns working against those principles, in most cases.

Yes, I spent a long time bouncing between the real world and academia.

 

[maple1]

Those are great advantages for the Kuuma. But you know what would be even better? It would really be great for Kuuma if all other furnaces were illegal to sell. That would make Kuuma the only choice and really the ultimate competitive advantage that was at stake here. Kuuma will continue to sell based on those other advantages but without the monopoly.

I don't think it was only a possible monopolistic factor at play here. Rather, if all the furnaces would be made to comply on that even playing field that was put into place for all to adhere to, then the price gap that currently disadvantages Kuuma would be a lot closer than it is now from the investments the others would have to have made in improving their tech & getting the certifications. Sounds like Kuuma was committed to expanding even without knowing if others were about to release new improved units or not - but now knowing that the others all of a sudden won't have to is a definite cart upsetter.

 

[leon]

I have said it before,

If the fireboxes were properly lined with firebrick on the sides and top and the standard fire brick was held in place with angle iron channels made from plain angle iron to allow it to be easily replaced by sliding it in and out when or if it cracks and breaks you would have very little to no smoke "ever". I did that an I never had issues with smoke after that when I burned wood and coal in the Switzer hand fed boiler I had.
Working with fire brick is not that hard to do.
================================================================================

First - I want to thank everyone for the support we receive on here!
Second- There is a lot of excellent points that everyone has brought up regarding the testing and EPA regulations
Third- It's tough for us to plan anything now. We spent a lot of time, especially since 2013 when this stuff was really getting talked about deciding on how to move forward. When this was finalized in 2015 we set-up our plan for testing to meet the 2017 deadline. We could write a whole book on that process and being the guinea pigs. While planning this out, we've been working with our city (Tower, MN) which has been in severe decline for many years and even lost the high school. We are supposed to start building a modest new factory in the next month but now with this latest potential EPA set back it has been difficult to finalize.
Fourth- Budget furnaces being sold at big box stores definitely affected our sales the past couple of years because I'm very confident if they hadn't come to the market we would be busy building furnaces 12 months a year instead of 6. However, we stayed the course with our plan with our eyes on the big picture. They made the decision to spend $ developing these new models every year and R & D'ing them on the public knowing they had no chance to be compliant with the 2020 regulations. I think our pricing is currently very fair for what you get and if others can pass they will be priced similarly.

I don't think it was only a possible monopolistic factor at play here. Rather, if all the furnaces would be made to comply on that even playing field that was put into place for all to adhere to, then the price gap that currently disadvantages Kuuma would be a lot closer than it is now from the investments the others would have to have made in improving their tech & getting the certifications. Sounds like Kuuma was committed to expanding even without knowing if others were about to release new improved units or not - but now knowing that the others all of a sudden won't have to is a definite cart upsetter.

 

[brenndatomu]

Firebrick is the secret, huh?