EPA looking to delay 2020 Emission Regulations

[maple1]

Firebrick is the secret, huh?

Who knew?

 

[STIHLY DAN]

For those others of you who are preparing to skewer me, I'll just ask if you thought 5 years ago that the Caddy (became my Tundra) was an awful polluter. If you're honest and think it has been decent for its era, then can you propose what the emissions limits should be for 2023 and 2026, just so I can agree with you that manufacturers will have plenty of time to know and design for the new rules? And if you're not willing to propose what those limits should be 5 years from now, then why are you so hostilely defending the 5 year interval from 2015 to 2020?

Ok, !st off. In 1993 woodstoves got regulated for emissions to be clean burners. Only a Tard would think it wasn't going to extend to boilers and furnaces. It took 23 years for that to happen, which is unbelievable. All makers are so lucky it didnt happen in 2000 or so like it should have. So really all manufacturers had 27 YEARS to get it right. If they didn't, then they are greedy or STUPID. Probably both. Not only that but every other product consuming appliance has been regulated during this time. Cars, Appliances, lights, fossil fuels, insulation, water heaters, on and on everything. Wood furnaces and wood boilers ended up being last. So any manufacturer that can't pass the test DESERVES to fade away. This is actually a stupid argument because really there is nothing to argue about. Plus if you don't agree with this, you are WRONG!

 

[brenndatomu]

Who knew?

Right?! All that big R n D money spent needlessly! It been staring them in the face all along...all you need is a few magic firebricks

 

[Highbeam]

Only a tard! A ri-tard! @STIHLY DAN

Regardless of post content, thanks for the laugh!

 

[sportbikerider78]

Those are great advantages for the Kuuma. But you know what would be even better? It would really be great for Kuuma if all other furnaces were illegal to sell. That would make Kuuma the only choice and really the ultimate competitive advantage that was at stake here. Kuuma will continue to sell based on those other advantages but without the monopoly.

This isn't like one guy in an engineering class passing the test so the whole test gets thrown out. This is like the guy that graduated with an engineering degree compared to a engineering school dropout with a basket weaving degree.

As a potential furnace buyer, I would consider all options and all specifications including cost. The emissions being better than 2015 is no big deal and the efficiency is only so-so for any of the furnaces including kuuma. All other furnaces being off the market is a game changer advantage that was to be won by all other companies failing. Just like when all of the engineering school dropouts become basket weavers.

Such is the fickleness of government making regulations, in this case, industry regulations. The leaders are political appointments, just like the FBI, CIA, ect. Political appointments to political means.

 

[E Yoder]

These regs came in through the courts and is a fluid situation. R&D is a gamble, you just don't know how far to go. Make the best unit you can and try to be as flexible as possible.
The uncertainty will make it very difficult for smaller manufacturers. The numbers are too low. This isn't like making water heaters or heat pumps where costs can be recouped in few years. Lower cost fuel, a mild winter or two, new regulation... it's not been an easy road for any of the manufacturers from what I hear.

 

[maple1]

Didn't the regs come in through government?

 

[brenndatomu]

R&D is a gamble, you just don't know how far to go. Make the best unit you can and try to be as flexible as possible.

This sounds a little like doing the minimum...just enough to get a passing grade...Its true that the diploma for a D- student is the same as the A+ student...but just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Why not just do your best? (within reason anyways) Instead of counting on "teach" grading on a curve...which Lamppa did not do. If the other manufacturers don't get an extension, or revision of the rules, they could be out of business...is that really worth the risk?
Sorry to keep using the school analogies...

 

[E Yoder]

Didn't the regs come in through government?

The EPA put in the regs because of a court order. They were forced to do it by a certain date.

 

[E Yoder]

This sounds a little like doing the minimum...just enough to get a passing grade...Its true that the diploma for a D- student is the same as the A+ student...but just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Why not just do your best? (within reason anyways) Instead of counting on "teach" grading on a curve...which Lamppa did not do. If the other manufacturers don't get an extension, or revision of the rules, they could be out of business...is that really worth the risk?
Sorry to keep using the school analogies...

I applaud the ones like Lamppa who go for the best. We've pursued some very clean units too. I'm just saying pushing for the cleanest is risky since it's regulation that's pushing it more than customer demand.

 

[leon]

Fire brick absorbs the heat and slowly releases it back into the firebox. The hotter fire burns the smoke.
They use a lot of standard firebrick in industrial steam boilers.

 

[Mojappa]

Fire brick absorbs the heat and slowly releases it back into the firebox. The hotter fire burns the smoke.
They use a lot of standard firebrick in industrial steam boilers.

My Fisher was loaded with firebricks, still smoked and burned inefficiently. Pretty sure seasoned wood and secondary tubes (except cat stoves) play a bigger role than fire bricks.

 

[E Yoder]

Burning clean is a bit more complex than just one thing. Temperature, fuel/air mix, space to burn off... It's a combination of many factors, firebrick being a factor in temperature. My experience anyway.

 

[S.Whiplash]

This sounds a little like doing the minimum...just enough to get a passing grade...Its true that the diploma for a D- student is the same as the A+ student...but just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Why not just do your best? (within reason anyways) Instead of counting on "teach" grading on a curve...which Lamppa did not do. If the other manufacturers don't get an extension, or revision of the rules, they could be out of business...is that really worth the risk?
Sorry to keep using the school analogies...

Sadly many of the manufacturers themselves to not support the move to cleaner burning technology as it interferes with their quest to make more $$$ which is really their only interest.

 

[brenndatomu]

Sadly

Yes...

 

[sportbikerider78]

Sadly many of the manufacturers themselves to not support the move to cleaner burning technology as it interferes with their quest to make more $$$ which is really their only interest.

I would be willing to bet, that most people buy woodstoves to save money. There is likely a very frugal buyer behind most purchases. If that company wants to stay in business, perhaps they can't invest much with thin margins. I don't know the margins, or the cyclical purchasing habits, but I'm willing to bet that it is a difficult and fickle business.

Even with the stoves that don't burn as clean as they could, isn't it a good thing to get people burning less oil? In most rural areas, the alternative is propane or oil.

 

[bholler]

I would be willing to bet, that most people buy woodstoves to save money. There is likely a very frugal buyer behind most purchases. If that company wants to stay in business, perhaps they can't invest much with thin margins. I don't know the margins, or the cyclical purchasing habits, but I'm willing to bet that it is a difficult and fickle business.

Even with the stoves that don't burn as clean as they could, isn't it a good thing to get people burning less oil? In most rural areas, the alternative is propane or oil.

It may be better yes unless you live down wind of a smoke spewing beast. The argument of cost doesnt hold water look at the englander freestanding stoves. They burn clean and are fairly durable. All while being much cheaper than most of the old smoke dragons of the 70s and 80s when you factor in inflation. And if the furnaces had been working on it the whole time they could be there by now to.

Oh and really the only option unavailable in rursl areas may be natural gas. There are still many other options available.

 

[sportbikerider78]

It may be better yes unless you live down wind of a smoke spewing beast. The argument of cost doesnt hold water look at the englander freestanding stoves. They burn clean and are fairly durable. All while being much cheaper than most of the old smoke dragons of the 70s and 80s when you factor in inflation. And if the furnaces had been working on it the whole time they could be there by now to.

Oh and really the only option unavailable in rursl areas may be natural gas. There are still many other options available.

Yes and irrelevant from the topic being discussed.

We aren't comparing 70's to now. We are comparing the last EPA ruling to the one that was supposed to be passed that the OP was lamenting.

I know it makes some people crazy that they can't control their neighbor burning sub-par wood, but you can't and you shouldn't be able to.
Be careful what you wish for. The next regulation will prevent you from burning all wood.

 

[Highbeam]

I can smell my dang neighbor barbecuing delicious meat many evenings when I’m out making noise mowing my lawn or washing my pickup. Smells, sights, sounds, of life that some people consider pollution.

 

[E Yoder]

Reading over the comments to the 2015 NSPS, the majority of the negative feedback about wood stoves came from someone with a inconsiderate neighbor. The more we can get along the less cumbersome regulation encroaches into our lives.
Being a good neighbor is an investment worth making every time.
Any unit I've seen run that passes the 2015 standard can easily be operated without bothering anyone.

 

[bholler]

Yes and irrelevant from the topic being discussed.

We aren't comparing 70's to now. We are comparing the last EPA ruling to the one that was supposed to be passed that the OP was lamenting.

I know it makes some people crazy that they can't control their neighbor burning sub-par wood, but you can't and you shouldn't be able to.
Be careful what you wish for. The next regulation will prevent you from burning all wood.

It is not irrelevent because with tighter regs the stove get better it happens every time. And every time there are guys complaining it will make stoves to expensive and to complicated. Or that it is just one step away from banning wood burning. It will be good for all of us as it has been in the past.

 

[Highbeam]

It is not irrelevent because with tighter regs the stove get better it happens every time. And every time there are guys complaining it will make stoves to expensive and to complicated. Or that it is just one step away from banning wood burning. It will be good for all of us as it has been in the past.

I sure wish they allowed the older diesel trucks to still be made. Emissions controls killed efficiency, durability, cost, and simplicity. Fuel injection on gas engines is pretty great though and mostly a side effect of stricter emissions controls.

 

[sportbikerider78]

It is not irrelevent because with tighter regs the stove get better it happens every time. And every time there are guys complaining it will make stoves to expensive and to complicated. Or that it is just one step away from banning wood burning. It will be good for all of us as it has been in the past.

There is nothing that prevents our hick neighbors from throwing green wood into that high end, clean burning stove. The situation you described can happen regardless of stove selection, age, or price.

 

[bholler]

There is nothing that prevents our hick neighbors from throwing green wood into that high end, clean burning stove. The situation you described can happen regardless of stove selection, age, or price.

Yes but they can be burnt cleanly if the person cares to. The old ones couldnt be really.

 

[Ashful]

I sure wish they allowed the older diesel trucks to still be made. Emissions controls killed efficiency, durability, cost, and simplicity. Fuel injection on gas engines is pretty great though and mostly a side effect of stricter emissions controls.

So are inexpensive daily drivers that produce 100 hp per liter of displacement, something that you’d have never believed possible 40 years ago, and entirely thanks to elevated emissions standards.