I have not trapped gophers, but I k ow that the trap line mole trap works on them. It is much harder to use in Sandy soil though. It can be done, but requires more finesse.
Garden Thread 2023!
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Dan Freeman
Minister of Fire
Ah come on; half the fun of gardening is the battle, and there are ways to deal with these critters. Just a matter of how bad you want to garden. For those of us that have the bug real bad, there is nothing that is going to stop us until they put us in a box and bury us.
Yes, I can do it when the nighttime temps don't go much below 40º. The greenhouse holds some residual heat because the floor is insulated. In a colder climate a tent around the starts might help. That said, our weather can be erratic. It hit 54º today. The daffodils are 2" tall and the garlic is 4" tall. Hazelnuts are in full bloom. And in February we could get dumped on by a big snowfall.
Most of my timing is based on when the outdoor soil temp will be warm enough for the transplants. I have to depend on NOAA's long-range forecasts to determine this. I usually start the cold-tolerant plants in the greenhouse in mid-Feb. and heat lovers in late March. Last year was a cold wet spring so I waited until early April to start the tomatoes and canteloupe.
They clear out fast. Since they dig 10 feet an hour when they want to, it always looks like there are more than there actually is. They don't have many babies.
Some people I talk to online say they catch large numbers of moles, but on average, I catch between 1 and 3 per residential yard.
Some people I talk to online say they catch large numbers of moles, but on average, I catch between 1 and 3 per residential yard.
We've had success with Victor Poison Peanuts. The container is conically shaped to punch a hole in an active tunnel. You need to make sure the tunnel is activve. Treating for grubs can also help.
So here’s the thing with poisons and grub treatments.
What is their diet? They are carnivores that eat earthworms 80-90% of the time. If it’s not meat, why would they eat it? There’s a very popular gummy worm that is sold with an anti coagulant In it. Sure, it looks like a worm to us, but in the dark is it going to fool a mole? Does it feel smell, and taste like a mole? If you eat filet mignon every evening and somebody slips you a slice of eggplant in the dark, could you tell the difference?
The company that makes the bait has videos of the moles eating it. And they go right after it! But I have to wonder if the moles were starved for a bit before being offered the gummy worms. If hungry enough they’ll probably eat anything. I know I would. Would they go after it in their normal buffet line?
Re grub treatments, they are candy to moles. If they find a patch of grubs, they go crazy. But it’s not their main source of food. Think of it like a 6 year old in a candy store. If you take away the candy, will the 6 year old go away? They’ll go back to eating their normal food.
I suspect you were able to get rid of voles with your poison peanuts. Voles are rodents and herbivores. They are much less picky in what they eat and can easily be poisoned.
Moles will move on once they reduce the worm population enough.
Have you ever seen worm grunting videos? The guys mimic the sounds of moles moving through the soil and the worms literally throw themselves out of the ground to escape! It’s pretty amazing when you consider how much danger a worm is in on the surface. I’ve seen this small scale when I saw the sod to place my traps.
What is their diet? They are carnivores that eat earthworms 80-90% of the time. If it’s not meat, why would they eat it? There’s a very popular gummy worm that is sold with an anti coagulant In it. Sure, it looks like a worm to us, but in the dark is it going to fool a mole? Does it feel smell, and taste like a mole? If you eat filet mignon every evening and somebody slips you a slice of eggplant in the dark, could you tell the difference?
The company that makes the bait has videos of the moles eating it. And they go right after it! But I have to wonder if the moles were starved for a bit before being offered the gummy worms. If hungry enough they’ll probably eat anything. I know I would. Would they go after it in their normal buffet line?
Re grub treatments, they are candy to moles. If they find a patch of grubs, they go crazy. But it’s not their main source of food. Think of it like a 6 year old in a candy store. If you take away the candy, will the 6 year old go away? They’ll go back to eating their normal food.
I suspect you were able to get rid of voles with your poison peanuts. Voles are rodents and herbivores. They are much less picky in what they eat and can easily be poisoned.
Moles will move on once they reduce the worm population enough.
Have you ever seen worm grunting videos? The guys mimic the sounds of moles moving through the soil and the worms literally throw themselves out of the ground to escape! It’s pretty amazing when you consider how much danger a worm is in on the surface. I’ve seen this small scale when I saw the sod to place my traps.
Remember that these rodents are part of the food chain. Poison will work its way to their predators, like owls, fox, etc. If at all possible, seek alternatives. We've managed to keep the mole population down with sulfur smoke sticks.
Dan Freeman
Minister of Fire
Yup. That's the way the only cat I ever liked died back in 2000. She was our "exterminator". She kept the mosuse population out of our house. One night, she ate a mouse that had eaten poison on a neighbor's property. I found her dead on my front stoop with a half-eaten mouse tucked in under her hind legs. She was fine the day before.
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I bet something else got her, Dan. A lethal dose of the rodenticides I use is based on weight. An animal needs to eat 10% of its body weight. And quickly since the body does process it out. So a 10 -15g mouse would have to eat a 1-1.5 grams to poison it. My office staff says it’s further concentrated to the liver, but I haven’t read that. (We have them read up on the products we use so they can answer questions.). A 14lb cat would have to eat 1.4lbs of rodenticide within a few months 1.5 grams at a time. 1.4lbs is 635g. If every mouse had the full 1.5g and f poison in it, you’re looking at 424 mice. I suppose if the cat only ate mice that were poisoned it could be done, but the odds work against it.
Birds are an exception to this IMO. They evolved to be the lightest weight possible, so it’d be far easier to reach the threshold.
Birds are an exception to this IMO. They evolved to be the lightest weight possible, so it’d be far easier to reach the threshold.
I have thought more about this recently. At our first home the traps did not seem to work effectively, so we went to the poison. Granted this was in a more dense population where everyone used poisons and lawn fertilizers monthly. Already mostly sterile.
Now, at our "final home" I've been more concerned with the food chain and such.
Yeah, anticoagulants that are used have changed over the years as rats and mice have developed immunity. Warfarin is an example. They had to feed on it multiple times in order for it to do its job. Urban rodents developed immunity. They are now using 2nd and 3rd generation, single feed anticoagulants. They’ve also gotten a lot more strict on how it can be sold/applied. Pellets can’t be purchased by homeowners any more. Blocks need to be secured to keep the animal from dragging them away.
Expect a lot of changes to come to the pesticide and rodenticide industries. This is a good thing. I welcome it.
Expect a lot of changes to come to the pesticide and rodenticide industries. This is a good thing. I welcome it.
RomanW
Burning Hunk
On a completely different note...
Can pines be a companion plant? Just thinking out loud here planning my FF... I know plants like Blueberries like some more acidic soil for the fruit and since the needles raise the acidity of the soil, could you in theory plant something like likes that next to a pine, and have it do well? I imagine you might run into other soil issues like crowding (pine roots), or lack of any other nutrients that the pine is using or displacing...
Can pines be a companion plant? Just thinking out loud here planning my FF... I know plants like Blueberries like some more acidic soil for the fruit and since the needles raise the acidity of the soil, could you in theory plant something like likes that next to a pine, and have it do well? I imagine you might run into other soil issues like crowding (pine roots), or lack of any other nutrients that the pine is using or displacing...
Needles don’t do all that much. They compost into a neutral ph. Blueberries do better with acidic soil, but I grow them in neutral and they still produce. Probably not as good as if I had the correct ph, but I tire of trying to overcome the buffering action of organic matter by adding sulfur. If you excavated all around the plant and grew them in peat you may be able to keep the proper ph.
Dan Freeman
Minister of Fire
Interesting thought. While it might actually benefit other plants, it does not provide edible food (to my knowledge). I think of all plants in a FF as producing food. Now, that doesn't mean you can't do it. Rules are meant to be broken. For me, it's just easier to use a natural acidic fertilizer on my blueberries. I also give the blueberries a handful or two of coffee grounds once in a while.
DuaeGuttae
Minister of Fire
I think you’d be likely to run into the problems you mention, crowding and nutrient loss from the roots, if the blueberries were too close to the pines, also shade unless the pines were only to the north. My mom grows blueberries quite well in Virginia. Her soil is naturally acidic but not as acid as blueberries prefer, so she does use either sulfur or other acid-loving fertilizer from time to time. She has lots of pine trees on her property, and she does choose to mulch her blueberries heavily with the pine needles. It doesn’t change the pH particularly; it’s just a resource that she has that she uses.
Do you know the average pH of your native soil? That might tell you how much you’d have to amend to keep the blueberries happy. If pines are happy there, that can be a sign that blueberries would be as well. There’s a point where you just can’t do enough. I live on a limestone cliff in Texas Hill Country, and there’s no way to amend my alkaline soil enough long term (average pH is 8.3), so I grow blueberries in pots, but I imagine conditions might be quite different in your neck of the woods. Several hours east of us, there is a region of the state known as the “Piney Woods,” and that’s where blueberries thrive.
RomanW
Burning Hunk
That's a good question. I'll probably grab a sample in the spring and have it tested to see what's going on.
I've included a top view of the area I'm going to turn into the FF. That circle in the middle is a trampoline that's been put at ground level. My thought was to remove it, and move it to the northern yard, and use it as a pond. Then plant fruit trees with their support plants around the area. There are small 7' pines on the LH side, and 2 maples on the south end. I figured if I built up some well place swails, I could direct the down spout from the garage to feed the FF with water, and keep the pond up. Right at the bottom right corner of the red square I have a plum and apple tree already planted.
The blue area is where I'm going to place a green house. I have a lot of deer and moose around, so I'm tryingto think of how to make a deer fence not look unsightly LOL. I wonder if growing a nice thick hedge around it would work... but then it would probably block the last rays of sun near the end of the day...
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I don't know. I think you may be on to something with a trampoline in the middle of a food forest! It could be the start of a beautiful thing!
Dan Freeman
Minister of Fire
What is that area, about 40 x 40? That's a decent size.
Check into the composition of the trampoline cover before you use it as a pond liner. Most trampoline covers are not waterproof. While water may collect on them in the rain, it will slowly soak through. Many are actually tightly woven mesh. Never cheap out on the liner - it's the first thing that goes in, which means everything that comes after it will have to come out if you have a problem. For the size pond you are proposing, no larger than the area of a trampoline, I would use Firestone EDPM Pond liner. It comes with a 20 year guarantee. You might be able to use the trampoline mat as a liner underlayment.
Have you picked a greenhouse, yet? Are you looking to use it 3 seasons or 4 seasons? I'm guessing you are growing zone 4a? A 4-season greenhouse is going to be very expensive, and if you try to grow 4 seasons in a 3-season greenhouse, you'll spend an arm and a leg on insulation and heat. Be careful buying a greenhouse. Many advertise as 4 seasons when they are only 3 seasons once you get into colder zones. I learned that the hard way with my greenhouse.
Check into the composition of the trampoline cover before you use it as a pond liner. Most trampoline covers are not waterproof. While water may collect on them in the rain, it will slowly soak through. Many are actually tightly woven mesh. Never cheap out on the liner - it's the first thing that goes in, which means everything that comes after it will have to come out if you have a problem. For the size pond you are proposing, no larger than the area of a trampoline, I would use Firestone EDPM Pond liner. It comes with a 20 year guarantee. You might be able to use the trampoline mat as a liner underlayment.
Have you picked a greenhouse, yet? Are you looking to use it 3 seasons or 4 seasons? I'm guessing you are growing zone 4a? A 4-season greenhouse is going to be very expensive, and if you try to grow 4 seasons in a 3-season greenhouse, you'll spend an arm and a leg on insulation and heat. Be careful buying a greenhouse. Many advertise as 4 seasons when they are only 3 seasons once you get into colder zones. I learned that the hard way with my greenhouse.
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RomanW
Burning Hunk
Ok whoa whoa, I'm removing the trampoline. Taking out of the hole lol. I'll be moving it to the northern yard, and leaving the hole behind.
Dan Freeman
Minister of Fire
OK, now I have it! Trampoline is staying together, being moved to the backyard, and the remaining hole will become a pond in the middle of the FF? If that's correct, I love the idea. Still use an EDPM liner. More expensive than the cheapies, but you will have no headaches. And don't skimp on the liner underlayment. Do NOT use sand, paper, cardboard, old carpets, etc. between the bare ground and liner. Real pond underlayment is so much better for a number of reasons, and it is not that expensive. You'll sleep better at night.
I am so excited to see your progress as you move forward.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Going to start seed’s today. Salad greens and lettuce spinach and some kale. decided to this will be indoor.
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Dan Freeman
Minister of Fire
Please post your progress. I almost bought one of those or something like that. Then I made my own, but only two, square rails. I used vinyl fencepost sleeves. I only used it for 2 winters (2021 and 2022) I would get great results, and get some great heads of lettuce, but I was lazy about doing all the ongoing water/nutrient testing, and so I would have a "limited run" and had to keep starting from scratch every few months.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I can see an issue with try to continuously start new plant in this setup as far as nutrient levels go. I’m hoping I can make a starting tub with 1/2 strength and keep them there long enough. My tower garden has a 25 gallon reservoir so I’m hoping I can set that up and use one reservoir for all the plants. Will keep you posted.
