Garden Thread 2023!

[Dan Freeman]

I’m ready to get more serious about growing some a garden. I’m not ready to tackle tomatoes. It’s just hard here as it will freeze in March and by June the nights don’t cool enough to get much to set.

I’m trying to decide to go between hydroponics with tower garden and pvc for greens or containers. My dad has been fiddling with his garden for 7 years and all he’s really found is that the summers here are really challenging. And with no green house March freezes means we really are in a doughnut hole. Too hot for peak summer productivity too cold to get an early start without a green house.

Should I go with easy to move inside to outside hydroponics and or conventional containers, or think more seriously about a green house?

It's really hard for me to say since I am totally unfamiliar with what you are describing. My first question would be, what is your growing zone? You can look that up here: https://garden.org/nga/zipzone/2012/

My second would be how far are you away from the coast where you are in SE NC, and how does the coast play with your weather and soil, if it does at all? These are two good places to start.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

@EbS-P , that’s great that you’re wanting to get more into gardening. This thread should be a place where you can get some good advice. Others like @begreen have more experience than I do, but I’ve got some hot climate experience I can share.

I do hydroponic seedling starting, but I don’t grow major food items that way, so I can’t give you advice on that. I do some container gardening but generally find it a bit harder in some ways that growing in the ground. My soil is awful here (mostly just limestone rock with no topsoil), so I have raised beds that I built up in a hugelkultur style. I’m in zone 8b and have the same issue of freezes in March and high heat starting early. This year my nearest major airport (San Antonio) recorded 155 days over 90 degrees, and we had the hottest May, June, and July ever on record for each month. My tomatoes had trouble setting fruit to say the least. Most just didn’t have time to set much before the 100+ temperatures started in May.

Around here the wisdom is that you have to start your plants early, grow them big inside, transplant as soon as you can and hope to get harvest before the major heat comes. Summer isn’t the most productive garden time, but I can keep plants going or plant new ones and have a good chance at a fall crop, too. It’s taken me a while to learn that system as I moved from Virginia where it was a very different approach.

Last summer we had a slightly cooler summer with more rain, and I had a stupendous garden year. I don’t know where exactly you are in North Carolina, but I looked at some climate data for Wilmington (zone 8a with similar frost dates to mine but a lot more humidity and rain). Gardening should be doable in such a climate with proper preparation.

I don’t have a greenhouse, but I do start all my plants inside from seeds. I use Aerogarden hydroponic systems to start the seeds, then I transplant into little nursery bags. I use sunny windows and sun outside on warm days once I take them out of the Aerogarden, though now I do own another grow light that I may use this year. Once they start getting big and the daytime temperatures are warm, I take them outside every day and bring them in every night till I’m ready to transplant.

All of that is for plants that need a head start for maturity like tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, even cucumbers. I direct sow other items or pre sprout and sow for more difficult seeds.

What crops are you most interested in growing? Okra and sweet potatoes come to mind as crops that might do well in your area.

I saw that you mentioned collards. ’m a huge collard fan from my childhood, though I don’t grow them. You are living in collard country, though. I heard a great NPR report a while back about a professor who drove all around Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina spotting collard greens in gardens, knocking on doors, and collecting heirloom seeds. A few of those seeds are sold at Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, I believe.

I’m needing to start getting serious about garden planning because I’m going to need to start some seeds soon. Right now my Aerogardens are still busy with tomatoes and peppers.



I’m planning to pick those ripe tomatoes for a salad tomorrow. I’ll combine them with some other cherry tomatoes that have been ripening inside from the picking that I did before our major freeze. These pictures are just from the last couple of days.



The last picture is a bunch of ripe Taiga tomatoes that also ripened inside. I diced them up and used them in Chicken Paprikash recently. I was very impressed with this variety, especially in such a difficult year. I’m looking forward to trying it again.

 

[begreen]

Blueberries do well. Black and raspberry are ok. But season is short. Squirrels are an issue.

I’ve done some research on perennials. Kale, greens, artichokes ect. Ordered some seeds but need to start them.

We like collards so those should be good.

Right now I’m full sun space limited. So hi density production is a priority.

My sister grows a winter and a summer garden not far from you. She has collards and kale growing right now. It's definitely possible in your climate. She only grew flowers when in Wilmington, but that climate is favorable to many crops. But pay attention to cool weather crops vs heat lovers. Kale, broccoli, and other brassica family plants are cool-weather crops. DG's experience growing in VA should be similar to your climate.

 

[clancey]

Heck I would start looking at greenhouses even thinking about hydroponics being included in a small area. North Carolina is a beautiful state and that Atlantic coastline had the water color of emerald green when I saw it last about ten years ago. I was used to the grey color of the ocean around the N.J. area and above...clancey

 

[EbS-P]

I decided to go smaller scale hydroponics. I should with the tower garden with wheels be able to add a second pump to and only manage one water source pumping to this 108 site pvc rack for smaller leafy greens. It all should be able to move in and out through the garage door when freezing weather hits easily enough.
VIVOSUN Hydroponics Growing System 108 Plant Sites, 3 Layers 12 Food-Grade PVC-U Pipes Hydroponic Gardening System Grow Kit with Water Pump, Pump Timer, Nest Basket and Sponge for Leafy Vegetables https://a.co/d/3pg1oRF

 

[Dan Freeman]

I decided to go smaller scale hydroponics. I should with the tower garden with wheels be able to add a second pump to and only manage one water source pumping to this 108 site pvc rack for smaller leafy greens. It all should be able to move in and out through the garage door when freezing weather hits easily enough.
VIVOSUN Hydroponics Growing System 108 Plant Sites, 3 Layers 12 Food-Grade PVC-U Pipes Hydroponic Gardening System Grow Kit with Water Pump, Pump Timer, Nest Basket and Sponge for Leafy Vegetables https://a.co/d/3pg1oRF

Nice looking unit. I would be interested in hearing how it works out for you.

 

[EbS-P]

Nice looking unit. I would be interested in hearing how it works out for you.

It will need a better base and wheels but for salad greens I think 10-20 nets a week is a good start.

 

[begreen]

Neat. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you. What will be the nutrient used?

 

[EbS-P]

Neat. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you. What will be the nutrient used?

Need to look more into it. Probably will just copy the tower garden nutrients. $65 for 2 gallons ( 1 gallon each of A and B) might not be that bad a price.

 

[Dan Freeman]

Greenhouse Update

A few posts back I wrote that I am beginning to think long term about a new greenhouse.

Garden Thread 2023!

Most of us didn’t really stop growing when winter hit…

www.hearth.com

Another greenhouse is now on the consideration block...
Hoklartherm Riga XL 6 Greenhouse (14X20)

Hoklartherm Riga XL 6 Greenhouse (14X20) | Free Shipping

www.greenhousenation.com

Reasons:
1. It is only 3 1/2x the cost of the Planta at $15,000! :blinking: :crying: :doh:
2. It is much wider at 14 feet instead of 10 feet. We want more of a room than a bowling alley. :nodding:
3. Instead of having to put it down in the field, we could put it right outside our kitchen door where the present greenhouse is eliminating the need to run water and electricity (already at the site) and be in much closer proximity to the house as we get older or if there is a lot of snow on the ground.
4. Better built joints, frames, windows, doors, gaskets and at 16mm the glazing is 2.66% thicker than the polycarbonate on the Planta, and almosty 4x what I have on my present greenhouse.

This is definitely the route to go logistically, but at $15,999 for the Riga vs $4200 for the Planta, it is going to take a lot of doing. Depending how our business does this Spring/Summer despite all the negative economic indicators, will tell the tale when/if we get the Riga.

We would want to install it during the summer since it will be going where the present greenhouse is situated, and we have to have the GH to start seeds in the early Spring. After the plants get moved outdoors, we could start on the demolition of the old and building of the new.

It would be quite an undertaking both physically and financially, but we would not have to go through this again in this lifetime! 👍

 

[EbS-P]

Greenhouse Update

A few posts back I wrote that I am beginning to think long term about a new greenhouse.

Garden Thread 2023!

Most of us didn’t really stop growing when winter hit…

www.hearth.com

Another greenhouse is now on the consideration block...
Hoklartherm Riga XL 6 Greenhouse (14X20)

Hoklartherm Riga XL 6 Greenhouse (14X20) | Free Shipping

www.greenhousenation.com

View attachment 307227

Reasons:
1. It is only 3 1/2x the cost of the Planta at $15,000! :blinking: :crying: :doh:
2. It is much wider at 14 feet instead of 10 feet. We want more of a room than a bowling alley. :nodding:
3. Instead of having to put it down in the field, we could put it right outside our kitchen door where the present greenhouse is eliminating the need to run water and electricity (already at the site) and be in much closer proximity to the house as we get older or if there is a lot of snow on the ground.
4. Better built joints, frames, windows, doors, gaskets and at 16mm the glazing is 2.66% thicker than the polycarbonate on the Planta, and almosty 4x what I have on my present greenhouse.

This is definitely the route to go logistically, but at $15,999 for the Riga vs $4200 for the Planta, it is going to take a lot of doing. Depending how our business does this Spring/Summer despite all the negative economic indicators, will tell the tale when/if we get the Riga.

We would want to install it during the summer since it will be going where the present greenhouse is situated, and we have to have the GH to start seeds in the early Spring. After the plants get moved outdoors, we could start on the demolition of the old and building of the new.

It would be quite an undertaking both physically and financially, but we would not have to go through this again in this lifetime! 👍

Wind rating really matters to me. Have you priced a pole shed with poly carb siding and roof? Done with some thought I think they would outlast the cheaper kit green houses. I’d build a door big enough to get a small tractor and tiller in. Just a thought.

 

[Dan Freeman]

Wind rating really matters to me. Have you priced a pole shed with poly carb siding and roof? Done with some thought I think they would outlast the cheaper kit green houses. I’d build a door big enough to get a small tractor and tiller in. Just a thought.

This green house has a long track record of being one of the strongest in the industry.

Haven't priced it. At this point in my life, don't know if I want to go the pole shed poly carb sided greenhouse. Too much work; and most likely, too little correct technology. (Been there, done that, and own the T-shirt.)

At $15,999, I wouldn't call this greenhouse, with its excellent reputation, a "cheaper kit greenhouse".

We don't own a tractor. We do everything by hand, even at 66 y/o each.

 

[clancey]

Free and EbS-P --Because of the economics I would hang tight for this year and not spend extra money if you can avoid it because interest rates will raise if your going to do credit. I feel our markets are "green" today but "red" tomorrow... It's very enticing and those green houses are beautiful and I like the size of them 14x20 but I say personally--at 66 you get the last rush of energy to do things like this figuring you cannot do it later and have to do it now if your going to do it. I am sure that there are a lot of other projects that have been put off and now maybe one could "tidy" those up and see what this new unsteady year brings us for the future. That age is a concerning one because you feel strong enough to do things like this so its a hard decision to make. But right now I say "slow down" and do the things that you "need to do" and stop putting them off.. I am a party pooper so I vote "No" on greenhouses for this year and that goes for pole sheds too. old clancey

 

[EbS-P]

This green house has a long track record of being one of the strongest in the industry.

Haven't priced it. At this point in my life, don't know if I want to go the pole shed poly carb sided greenhouse. Too much work; and most likely, too little correct technology. (Been there, done that, and own the T-shirt.)

At $15,999, I wouldn't call this greenhouse, with its excellent reputation, a "cheaper kit greenhouse".

We don't own a tractor. We do everything by hand, even at 66 y/o each.

No 16k is not cheap. Priced like the Cadillac of greenhouses Ive looked at. I Didn’t look at its wind rating. The cheap one I was referring to the first one you posted. It was 65 mph rated. It’s all about usability, durability, and value. First and third can be subjective. For 16k I hope it would withstand anything but a record setting derecho.

Having an efficient system for your scale of production is what’s important. I’m not going to rent or buy a tiller for what would take me 4 hours or less. But the more physical jobs need won’t get easier. Planning ahead so you infrastructure is accommodating your needs in the 15 years is probably important.

 

[begreen]

Need to look more into it. Probably will just copy the tower garden nutrients. $65 for 2 gallons ( 1 gallon each of A and B) might not be that bad a price.

View attachment 307225

Getting the nutrients right and keeping them balanced will be important. What lighting will be used and how many? 2 per tier?

 

[Montanalocal]

Deciding whether or not to construct a greenhouse depends on what one wants to use it for. If only using it to start seedlings, then there are much more efficient options.

Seedlings need two things that a greenhouse supplies, light and heat. In the case of a greenhouse, the light is provided free, and you have to provide the heat, at least in the temperate regions, which comprise most of the US. Providing this heat can become very expensive.

The alternative is to grow seedlings inside ones house. In this case the heat is free, or at least not more expensive than otherwise, and you have to provide the light.

This is what I do, and it is very cost effective. I use low cost 4 ft. shop lights, and have replaced the florescent tube lights that came with them with the newer 4 ft. LED tubes. They are quite affordable and will last practically forever. Starting seedling does not require any fancy spectrum lighting, that is for latter on in a plants lifetime when they are flowering. The key is to get the lights right down on top of the plants, the light intensity decreases by the inverse of the square of the distance, so if you move the light away from one inch to two inches, the light intensity decreases by a factor of 4.

 

[begreen]

Providing this heat can become very expensive.

This can be done with low-cost heat pads. They keep the soil temp at around 70º and have worked well for me.

 

[Montanalocal]

Yes it can be done in the Puget Sound area. I do not know if it can be done in the areas of the country where it can get below zero well into spring, like where I live. That might be something folks will have to try.

 

[Dan Freeman]

I generally start my seeds on or around March 21, about 2 months before our last frost. I do use heat matts to get a timely germination. I also use a heater set so the temperature does not fall below 45 or so while the young plants are growing. At this temperature, if I didn't use heat matts, germination would take forever.

 

[EbS-P]

Getting the nutrients right and keeping them balanced will be important. What lighting will be used and how many? 2 per tier?

Will start inside under grow lights. I will have to figure out what I can do outside with no lights on my patio. (I’m hoping most growing). I have four old grow lights that came with the tower garden.

 

[begreen]

Will start inside under grow lights. I will have to figure out what I can do outside with no lights on my patio. (I’m hoping most growing). I have four old grow lights that came with the tower garden.

I'm sure my old grow lights will be too heavy for these light PVC racks. I am currently trying out these lights. They are not as broad spectrum as some more expensive ones, but so far are working well for my lettuce patch and the tomatoes. They were $44 a pair during December and are very lightweight.
Amazon product ASIN B08JLJ3D6YThis setup will probably be fine without lights outdoors as long as there is adequate sunlight hours for the crops being grown. The main thing to watch will be pH and algae buildup.

 

[Dan Freeman]

Those look like decent lights, and they even mention PAR in the description. I'm surprised. Most grow light companies don't even know what PAR is from the garbage they are pushing out on people. If a grow light company is not talking about PAR, run in the other direction because they are trying to sell an inferior grow light, so they'll talk about other terms for measuring light. (Their favorite is lumens.) Plants only care about PAR light, a.k.a. photosynthetic active radiation. No other light matters to them.

 

[VintageGal]

Gophers and moles. Enough said. 😥

 

[clancey]

I do not know much about the technologies of lights but I know it is important especially when one wants to check out lights for what purpose. I found this article on the net and maybe it would help a bit...Hope so anyway...clancey

What is PAR in Grow Lights? What is the Best for Plants? | Your Indoor Herbs and Garden

PAR in grow lights is the indication of how much useful light for plant development is produced by the device. This should be aligned with the PFFD requirements for plants.

www.yourindoorherbs.com

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Gophers and moles. Enough said. 😥

Amazon product ASIN B013J6QX3Y

I’ve trapped thousands of moles, different soil types generally change the type of traps one uses. This trap works well in both clay and Sandy soil.