Encore Non-Cat Overfires

[MountainStoveGuy]

it took me a good hour to read this thread today, i even got yelled at by the boss for spending to much hearthnet time...

 

[elkimmeg]

Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.

MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap. That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each

Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE

This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today by the largest manufacture of hearth products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players

What is your point? I can't ask questions because someone named vermont is stepping up to the plate?

What does one incorrectly installed summit have to do with this thread? Nobody from PE wrote him a letter saying it wasn't supposed to produce heat!

Chill Elkmiester

you are right I over reacted sorry. Its took a lot of convincing to get Vermont here. I think that is a major step that we members of the hearth are being heard. I don't want to discourage but encourage it, attracting other manufactures to participate. I did a poor job of expressing this point

 

[Gunner]

No worries Elk :coolsmile:

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

My offer was serious on page 8, but if you buy one of (broken link removed to http://www.drillspot.com/products/57784/DWYER_460_Air-Velocity-Meter?s=1) it will tell the tale. I would bet my first born you are pulling more then 1" on the watercolum (which would peg this instrument).

 

[cmcramer]

As soon as VC recommends a damper - I'll do it.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

thats silly, the chimney and the stove are two seperate devices. Let the stove manufacture recomend fixes for there stove, and let chimney experts tell you what wrong with your chimney. I dont think there is anything wrong with your stove, i think you have a bad installation. Buy a draft meter, then no ones opinion matters, those things dont lie, whats another $40 when you have $2k invested. Or even better, go buy a $6 damper and just install it.

put a quad, or a jotul, or a hearthstone, or a PE... ect on your 30' chimney and you will get the same result.

 

[Gooserider]

While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem. This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.

We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height. My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap. To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...

However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap. Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension. The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.

It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."

Gooserider

I dont look at manuals when i sell chimneys, mabey i should. when i address the 10/2/3 rule i use the pipe only, before the cap is installed. that rule is used to prevent downdrafting eddies of of other roof structures, so if the top of the cap is in that envelope, i would say thats bad. As elk likes to say, better safe then sorry.

The way you do it is the way that sounds right to me, and I can understand not looking at manuals (beyond maybe an occasional skim) if you already know what the rules are. My concern would be for the person that doesn't have your background and just goes with what the manual shows in good faith... IMHO this is even more questionable than my earlier issue about the questionable website customer install photos, as this is something that is clearly put out by the company in an "official document".

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for someone that does something the manual says not to, but I do when the manual gives ambiguous or wrong info, or leaves things out. IMHO if you are going to provide info you should either do a complete job of it, or say "this product intended for professional installation only" and leave out the "How to DIY" info. Don't tell people how to DIY, but leave out stuff that only a pro might be reasonably expected to know.

Gooserider

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

agreed there goose.
hopefully the DIY also reads the pipe installation manual, every one i have ever seen tells you to measure to the bottom of the cap.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

here is a similar story for you.
My good freind Jim, bought a rais 86 stove from me. He is the type that more is better in any scenario. I helped him install the chimney. He decided on a 20' chimney in a top level in his home. Upstaris of homes are always positivly pressured and they dont need as much chimney as a main level or basement level stove. I tried to tell him this but he is pretty hard headed.
So most friday nights i go over there and talk about aquariums and what not, and every friday night the stove has red spots all over it. He is overfiring this stove almost every time he uses it..(and proud of his red spots, "thats a darn hot fire huh") finally the last big snow storm took a 4' section of his pipe off, a few weeks ago he came in to the shop to tell me that his stove no longer glows, and is burning longer, but his chimney is gone and wants to buy more. He didnt see the correlation of what just happend. So now, he is on short pipe and loving life. His stove burns longer, and puts out more heat because of proper draft. The equivelent of a shorter chimney is installing a damper on a tall chimney. It reduces draft.
His chimney actually blew off with wind, his install was in a existing wood chase that he had 4' and a 2' section sticking out. Now he doenst meet the 10/2/3 rule, but it works. he needs to buy a extra foot to make it leagle, but that will have to wait untill spring.

 

[elkimmeg]

While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem. This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.

We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height. My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap. To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...

However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap. Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension. The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.

It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."

Gooserider

I dont look at manuals when i sell chimneys, mabey i should. when i address the 10/2/3 rule i use the pipe only, before the cap is installed. that rule is used to prevent downdrafting eddies of of other roof structures, so if the top of the cap is in that envelope, i would say thats bad. As elk likes to say, better safe then sorry.

The way you do it is the way that sounds right to me, and I can understand not looking at manuals (beyond maybe an occasional skim) if you already know what the rules are. My concern would be for the person that doesn't have your background and just goes with what the manual shows in good faith... IMHO this is even more questionable than my earlier issue about the questionable website customer install photos, as this is something that is clearly put out by the company in an "official document".

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for someone that does something the manual says not to, but I do when the manual gives ambiguous or wrong info, or leaves things out. IMHO if you are going to provide info you should either do a complete job of it, or say "this product intended for professional installation only" and leave out the "How to DIY" info. Don't tell people how to DIY, but leave out stuff that only a pro might be reasonably expected to know.

Gooserider

Goose this is addressed on the first page of the manual Have you given any thought the installation instructions are not for the Diy but to serve as guidelines for the professional and It assumes that the professional does not need hand hloding First page of the manual clearly states this in a highlighted box

We recommend our wood burning product be installed and serviced by professionals
Who are certified in US. By the National Fire Institute ( NFI) as NFI wood burning Specialist

 

[begreen]

Wow, leave for a day and this place gets cooking hot.

First, let me thank Vermont for stepping in. Welcome.

Second, cmcramer, try a draft damper. It can make a very big difference. I wouldn't have been able to run our old 602 without one, it would have overfired constantly. (Actually it did for the former owner, that's why I had to rebuild it.) Part of the problem when there are a lot of different thoughts and then different folks with different or related problems joining in a thread is that one loses focus on the core issue. Kudos to MSG for sifting through the posts to find the 30' chimney.

From the Harman Oakwood manual:
Signs of an overdraft
include rapid fuel consumption, inability to slow the fire,
and parts of the stove or chimney connector glowing red.
It is important that you follow the chimney guidelines in
this manual, including size, type, and height to avoid draft
problems.

Here's a couple links on the symptoms of overdraft. Sound familiar?
(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoxdraft.htm)
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/related/woodstoveapp.pdf) (pg A20)

 

[Gooserider]

Elk, I've seen that box, but if that was really the audience they were writing the info in the manual for, I would not expect to see most of the stuff that I see in there. The pro shouldn't need any kind of picture, or comment on the 2-3-10 rule, or all the details about how to make an approved wall pass-through, or notes about putting three screws in a pipe joint, etc., etc, for about 8 out of the 14 pages on installation in the manual. Indeed, if I were a "Pro" I'd be mildly annoyed at having to dig through all those pages of standard code for all stoves info in order to find the specific information for the stove I was installing...

A pro should already know how to install a chimney, or make sure an existing chimney is suitable.
A pro should already know how to connect single wall pipe.
A pro should already know how to determine if a chimney is the right size
A pro should already know how to make a pass through for a combustible wall
A pro should already know how to make a wall shield
A pro should already know how to make floor protector and how to choose materials for one.


The pro should only need the info specific to the stove in question

Clearance requirements (with and w/o added shields)
Flue diameter
Clearances for pipes, and other exceptions from usual code specs
Floor protector R-value required, and dimensions

If I were writing the manual ONLY to be used by a pro who already knew the relevant codes (part of definition of "pro" that many fail to meet) then I could probably condense the material that VC spends 14 pages on down to five or six....

However, as is we get a manual full of info that the pro shouldn't need, but that is just enough to get a DIY in trouble. We also get botched "Pro" installs, and in at least some cases, botched inspections of those pro installs....

It sort of reminds me some ways of an article I saw a while back on Kosher foods - There are apparently two Kosher certifications one can get, one is issued by the State Gov't of New York by inspectors that may or may not even be Jewish (and don't ask me what business a state gov't has enforcing a religious standard) and the other is an actual Rabbinical seal issued by a Rabbi in accordance with all the applicable rules of the religion (I'm not Jewish, don't ask me for the details...) The NYS gov't claims their seal is a "fraud prevention" to keep places from claiming to be kosher that aren't. However it is worth noting that just about all the NYS producers of Kosher foods find it is worth their while to voluntarily go to the extra effort to get the rabbinical seal in addition to the NYS seal that they have to get in order to say "its Kosher" Further, according to the article, most Jewish folks that are really serious about keeping kosher tend to ignore the NYS seal and look for the rabbinical one. (It's been a while, and I forget the details, but that was the main idea)

I kind of feel the same way about a gov't inspection - it does not make me feel any safer about the job. However if there were a good PRIVATE certification agency, I'd be more inclined to trust their approval.

Gooserider


Gooserider

 

[Roospike]

Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.

MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap. That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each

Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE


This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today by the largest manufacture of hearth
products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players

Now lets see ........

There was about 5 Pacific Energy stove owners on that thread.

Tom Oyen from chinmeysweep on line , on line sales and Pacific Energy dealer. President / CEO
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/emptom.htm)

Jack Cohen, Pacific Energy distributor .
Vice President Bac Sales
[email protected]
518 828 6363 ext 240

The local Pacific Energy dealerthat sold the stove.

THE Pacific Energy manufacture/ company was called and input was given.
(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/support.html)

And it was an install issue over heat distribution of the fireplace and not a safety issue or manufacture defect of the stove. ( or glowing red )

I think that thread and stove was well covered with Pacific Energy dealers , distributors and the company.

And YES there was a pro inspector on the case that went above and beyond. ;-)

 

[TMonter]

Just a comment on the "recommended chimney height" in the manual. The reason it's recommended and not a hard and fast rule is that every chimney is different. When I installed my 3100i Quad, the stove vendor told me I didn't have enough chimney.

I dropped my manometer on the pipe and showed him at room temp it drafted at 0.25 inches with no heat, this was because I did a complete reline with insulation. I only have 12' of chimney which is far less than I got recommended.

There is no standard for chimney height in the regulations, but you should have enough draft to operate your stove.

Just because someone is a professional installer or inspector does not mean that they are automatically right.

I kind of feel the same way about a gov’t inspection - it does not make me feel any safer about the job. However if there were a good PRIVATE certification agency, I’d be more inclined to trust their approval.

Heh, why do you think boilers follow ASME rather than US government codes? I agree Goose, government oversight does not mean it's correct or safe.

 

[cmcramer]

Dollar bill test shows all gaskets to be tight. Can't say that I can locate the primary air flap to check for debris that may be hanging it up in an open position - where the heck is it?

OK. You Pro guys have convinced me, I think. I'm off to buy a damper and a gizmo to measure the draft. ('air velocity meter'?)

Manual Damper OR Barometric??

Also note that the (broken link removed) article about overdraft that was recommended to me included this:

Note: if you attempt to reduce your chimney updraft with either type of damper, you do so at your own risk. Only a few of the woodstove manufacturers we know of recommend the use of stovepipe dampers, and then only in cases of extreme overdrafting: many specifically forbid their use

Does VC "forbid" their use? The VC call center guy reading off his computer screen definitely said, with emphasis, "We get asked that a lot, and NO! No damper."

Will installing a damper void my warranty, Mr. Vermont?

 

[cmcramer]

Found the primary air flap - it's free and clear.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Looking at exclusion #2 on page 36 of your (broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2007/30002425_Encore_NC_1450.pdf), you have already voided your warrenty because a manufacture told you not to install a damper on a chimney that has to much draft (not in the manual, VIA email). The warrenty for your stove SPECIFICLY calls out peeling paint as a sign of overfiring, and overfiring voids the warrenty.
I have NEVER herd of a damper voiding any warrenty, or any manufacture saying its use will void a warrenty.

 

[Corie]

Yeah that is pretty odd. Imagine you had the stove hook up to a chimney with 30 something feet of height. There is no WAY you could get by without a damper in that case either, but the manufacturer forbids it. It just doesn't make much sense on devices that we know are all something sensitive to draft.

 

[Gunner]

cmcramer,
what was you previous stove and how did it perform?

 

[cmcramer]

what was you previous stove and how did it perform?

My VC Resolute, from late 1970's, ran fine! I could engage the damper and close the air intakes to control any fire.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

thats because it wasnt a reburner. you had full air control in your old stove.

 

[Gooserider]

Dollar bill test shows all gaskets to be tight. Can't say that I can locate the primary air flap to check for debris that may be hanging it up in an open position - where the heck is it?

OK. You Pro guys have convinced me, I think. I'm off to buy a damper and a gizmo to measure the draft. ('air velocity meter'?)

Manual Damper OR Barometric??

Also note that the (broken link removed) article about overdraft that was recommended to me included this:

Note: if you attempt to reduce your chimney updraft with either type of damper, you do so at your own risk. Only a few of the woodstove manufacturers we know of recommend the use of stovepipe dampers, and then only in cases of extreme overdrafting: many specifically forbid their use

Does VC "forbid" their use? The VC call center guy reading off his computer screen definitely said, with emphasis, "We get asked that a lot, and NO! No damper."

Will installing a damper void my warranty, Mr. Vermont?

I would go for an inline manual damper. I know that some use barometric dampers with woodstoves, but I don't think they are compatible. The two have different operating concepts, and I think the manual model fits the way a woodstove operates better.

A barometric damper works on the idea of not restricting the draft, but rather drawing part of the air from outside the stove. To me this raises several problems -
1. The added cold air will cool the gasses in the flue, leading to creosote buildup - note how almost everything else we do to our chimneys has the partial objective of keeping those gasses warm....
2. Where does that extra air come from? I'd rather not be pulling heated air out of my house to send up the chimney.
3. It only slows the air flow through the stove as a secondary effect of dividing the gas flow.

The manual damper works by changing the effective cross section of the flue, thus restricting and slowing the gasses. It doesn't cause cooling, so it shouldn't cause an added creosote problem, and it doesn't pull any heated air out of the house. Since the pressure differential driving everything is still present, I'd expect the gasses getting past the damper to even move a bit faster, which is a good thing.

I would go with a manual damper in the first section of pipe after the flue exit.

As to the warrantee, I would expect that it shouldn't have any effect since all you are really doing is changing the gas flow through the stove in the same way that changing the chimney height would. Thus you might potentially decrease the draft below a safe amount (probably the reason the stove mfgrs are worried about it) but shouldn't be able to do anything that would actually damage the stove.

My guess is that the reason the stove mfgrs don't want you using flue dampers is twofold... Both reasons relate to the question of what happens if you misuse one and they had "reccomended" it. As long as they say "don't do that" then they are pretty much covered - "it's not our fault, we told them not to...." They don't want the potential liability that could result if you cranked the damper down to far and gassed yourselves because the stove had no venting. The other problem would be more with the gov't - the stove has been certified at a given emissions rating w/o the damper, using a certain flue size. They probably can't advise you to install a device that could potentially cause the stove to burn in a less clean way.

Gooserider

 

[cmcramer]

Please remember that it 'twas (broken link removed) that claimed some stove companies forbid dampers....not one humble and still learning cmcramer


A manual damper goes in Sunday am. Testing soon to follow.

 

[Gooserider]

Just as a FWIW, Not all stove companies forbid manual dampers - Hearthstone quite clearly RECCOMENDS them for some chimneys in it's manual for the Heritage. They suggest taking a draft reading at installation, and looking for a draft between 0.25" and 1.0" WC. If the draft is over 1.0"WC they reccomend installing a manual damper.

FWIW, in light of the minimum chimney height discussions elsewhere, they also state REQUIRED heights, with a minimum of 13' and a maximum of 30', using the word "required" as opposed to VC's use of "recommended"

Gooserider

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

one thing i liked in the VC manual i read, was the graph for chimney hight and altitude. Your chimney is appropriate for a 11,000 foot altitude installation.. you would have to assume that the same chimney will act different at sea level or there would be no need for the graph.