Encore Non-Cat Overfires

[cmcramer]

It's not the seal at flue connection. (just tested out newly sealed stove: still glows red)
It's not faulty seal at door or ash pan.
It's not overly dry wood.
It's not too much draft.
It's not lack of a building permit.
It's not lack of certificate of compliance.
It's not about being a "complainer".

It is about design/engineering flaws, acknowledged - in writing - by CFM/VC's Senior Technical Advisor, that void my warrantee.

IF Glowing parts = Overfiring,
AND Overfiring = Misuse,
AND Misuse = Void Warrantee
THEN Glowing Parts = Void Warrantee

Let's see, how do I start my letter...How about:
"Dear Mr. Attorney General"

 

[rtljr]

My stove installation was inspected both by the local fire department for permit purposes and by my insurance company prior to use. The dealerthat I purchased from and who installed the stove will be out Saturday AM to inspect the stove. They will contact VC for any information prior to the appointment. The co-owner said that it sounded like too much draft and, due to gasketed construction rather than cemented construction, there might be an air leak somewhere. Both my family and my wife's family are long-time VC owners (original Defiant and Vigilant). Due to the new technology I expect a long learning curve, but I don't want to put my wife and children in danger or damage an expensive piece of hardware.

 

[cmcramer]

Please keep us informed!

If you would like a copy of the letter from CFM/VC that acknowledges this glowing stove problem, just email me your fax number and I'll fax you a copy.

 

[elkimmeg]

don't for get to send your letter to consumer affairs and division of product safety or public safety also forward your letter to CFM. I say go for it
glowing red is unacceptable..

BTw are all the stoves involved matt black? or are they enamal coated. If enamaled look real close, glowing red should be cracking the enamal
Can you post a picture of the glowing red?

I tke a step back I was justy trying to qualify the conditions and the instalation I did send the letter I posted to the Vermont Castings plant in Vermont.
I did not get a response yet. If I do I will post it

 

[Harley]

Just making a suggestion

It seems this has gotten a little beyond the type of installation/use of the stove issue - for all interested - I think at this point - we are talking about safety and how to fix the problem - not point fingers.

Elk did the right thing and let VC know what was being said here... that was a little while ago, and quite frankly, the lack of response does really say a lot to me. It wasn't too long ago that we heard they may participate in the discussion. I have always been a big VC fan, so I'm not "bashing" them because I've recently switched brands.

Given all of the details that have been put out on this thread - In my mind - I really have to put this issue in VC's court.... not the stove owner, and not even the dealer who sold the stove. There's been a little somewhat heated discussion about the everburn technology, but they are in 2 different models of stoves, so what works in 1 may not work in the other (Gordo - I'd still like to see the video and hear what the "rumble" sounds like).

Although I said above "not point fingers" - I guess I just did. I believe it would be in VC's interest to respond to the 'glowing red metal is OK' <no - that wasn't quotes> part of the letter.

I'd still like to hear something from them saying they even give a crap about the issue and that they are looking into it - but so far - nothing.

 

[Shane]

The thing that was strange to me is that they included the Acclaim in the letter. That's an older non-cat that doesn't use EBT. The combustion package is a soft ceramic fiber material like the cat housings on the cat models. I don't have any complaints of glowing and I have roughly 10 of these stoves sold (ones with EBT includes VC & Dutchwest models). Also there is another VC dealer in town that supposedly dwarfs my sales so surely he's sold plenty. I wonder if there is a specific production run with a defect or something? If they come out with a safety recall I'll be sure to contact all of our customers etc.
Webmaster brought up a good point that cast manifolds etc commonly glow on cars and that it is possible that what was said in the letter is reasonable. I mean really I don't think that VC is a deceptive company and would try to dodge a huge issue. John Davidson I'm sure would not write such a letter without permission/support of the CFM brass and or legal counsel, as doing such surely could jeapardize his job. And I certainly wouldn't think that such a letter would be issued if it could not be backed up somehow? It just seems illogical to me.
Also note that I am not trying to downplay the issue at hand, there are obviously people with stoves that are over firing judging by some of the stack temps mentioned. But what if it is simply a case of some failed seam gasket? To me the technology is tried and true in a sense it's over 3 years old. Many stove companies utilize it. We're not talking about a Whitfield Photoeye or something.

 

[elkimmeg]

It may be it took a while for for problems to arise the customer base finally finds Hearth.net forums. the letter was dated in Mov but it acknowledges a problem that existed prior to them..

Is it only confined to the Encore and Resolute Acclaim? what about the just released non cat Defiant .Also note no mention was given about glowing red in the Dutchwest line

Is the glowing red only visiable in the mat black stoves? has anyone seen it in the enamaled stoves?. Shane you are a dealer and you find out about the letter john davinson wrote 3 months back here on hearth.net. Did you know VC had a recall on their sequioa fireplaces last year?

 

[Shane]

Yeah we definately knew about the recall. That's the thing VC in general is very proactive about recall situations etc. My distributor called me and said "you have one of the Sequoias that are part of the recall, it is field repairable and the kit is on the way." 1 week after the kit was delivered a follow up call was made to ensure that I had installed the kit and filed the paperwork. Very proactive in getting their product fixed and making sure they were all fixed. I don't recall seeing the letter from John Davidson last November, however, I was not in the office as much at this point. I was installing stoves, so I could have missed it, forgotten that I read it, or maybe it wasn't sent to every dealer. Seems like I'd remember it though.

 

[rtljr]

My Encore is non-enameled.

 

[elkimmeg]

Can one of you post a picture of the stove glowing red, all the light off, so that the glowing is exposed and highlighted?

I had a feeling your stove was matt black, as the glowing may not show up in the enamal coated stoves.

That does not mean it is not occuring in the enamal stoves its just not as visiable

 

[elkimmeg]

Update Dale is on the road this week so my e-mail to him is sitting on his computer not opened yet
Next I called the head of enginerering spoke to him and just sent him the Email I am also faxing him a copy
I do have some good news you two may want to PM me we can discuss what is going on behind the sceens not ready to publish on the forum and not quite confirmed.
CMcramer PM me back this morning but I have not communicated with rtljr

I also have supplied this discussion link to VC head of engineering

 

[tradergordo]

(Gordo - I'd still like to see the video and hear what the "rumble" sounds like)

OK, by request - I created the "everburn rumble" video. Not sure my server can handle much traffic, and its a huge file, but see if you can download it:
EverburnDemo.avi

PROBABLY BEST to right click the link and do a "save target as" instead of trying to play it directly. I'll put a lower resolution version on YouTube as soon as I can figure out what happened to the software I used to have to shrink video files.

-Gordo

 

[Corie]

It won't right click save as for me?

IDK why

 

[Corie]

Well I got it to download!

Very very interesting. Its also interesting how you can see the fire through the intake holes for the everburn system.

 

[Gunner]

can't get it to run...says connecting but never does.

 

[Roospike]

I cant get it to open . save as target saves a link page that does the same thing as direct.
It sits there and spins and i have 5 meg download.

Monster file ?

 

[begreen]

It downloaded ok for me. I am blown away by the stack temps. 950 to 1050 "normal" operating range? I've never seen that with any of the stoves I've owned. Well, at least there's no creosote in those pipes.

 

[Roospike]

I let the download run and it did come up. I was in the back room and couldnt figure out who was talking in the kitchen ! ( computer room is of of the kitchen )

Any good pictures of the rear air intakes of the stove ?

 

[elkimmeg]

The secondary burn chamber it is nit unusual to see it go 1,400 or even up to 1,700 degree in there.
With smoke channeled in the high heat chamber, is it any wonder a few particulates get burned off

This is the same setup the Lopi Leyden ,Harman oak wood and Quad Island royal uses
Smoke is forced down the coal bed drawn up into the secondary combustion chamber super heated hot air is injected and the high heat secondary burn begins

All Non cat Encores and Defiants have rear and bottom heat shields not an option they are attached as standard equipment the refractory package of insulation they use is the same that insulate the molten steel/cast iron pots that are then tipped and poured into the molds so IT constantly can take 2,700 degrees.
BE green that explains the rear distance to combustibles its damn hot back there

As to the problems after a lengthy discussion with engineering yesterday here are some thoughts I came away with
ONE VC realized that the dealers are not preparing /education the customers as to the characteristics of using the everburn system.,

When damperd down to activate the everburn/ secondary burn cycle, it is very similar to the Cat models after the initial rolling flames gas off
it settles down to a glowing coals burn Not that wild active fire of the air tube secondary burning but a sedate glowing ember fire. VC noted that the common user is so used to seeing open flames they think they are doing something wrong s the combination of the glowing primary burn and the secondary burn is producing the heat expected, but to one not understanding this they think the stove is not performing right. Some will open the ash door and create a blast furnace in there. Others start opening up the primary air to full open.

Nobody has explained that the stove acts normal without a dancing flame display. One can get this in the open damper mode.

The John Davidson letter in this post did not originate in engineering till I faxed them a copy yesterday engineering had not seen or had knowledge of the letter. His job is to train and educate the dealers and techs. He is not part of engineering, where a letter of this info should have originated.

VC head engineer first response was that of an air leak most probably the ash door latch or gasketing. Their second-guess it the stoves are being over fired. The third possibility the stoves are being overloaded. Yes it is possible to overload these stoves A fully loaded stove is loaded to the bottom of the rear damper exit. However with top loading it is possible to load over the damper all the way to just getting the top griddle closed about 6’ more inched are available that can be overloaded. Loading in that air space changes the airflow dynamics of the stove.

Which once it gets going, could lead to over firing. Another part of the Everburn operations is raking the hot coals to the middle rear around the refractory everburn shoe.
Most stoves we are accustomed to using, we all rake the coal bed forward and to the front. How long did it take the PE burners to adopt north south loading well there is a learning curb to working the Everburn system be a VC product. Harman, Quad, or Lopi.
LETS face facts in order to increase efficiency the heat has to stay in the stove longer more smoke particulates have to be burned off. That equates to less leaving up the chimney.

These stoves require good draft setups. That old direct connect is not going to work well as we dissected when a PE was direct connected in Ny the guy complained he was not getting heat.
it takes a good draft to accomplish a decent secondary burn. There are about 4 methods employed in producing secondary burn the cats and everburn use the secondary burn chambers
The third method is baffles and air tubes the forth is plain baffles.

Again there is also the possibility these stoves have some qc issues. VC would like to get them in their testing lab and see what the issues are. Till yesterday engineering did not know of these issues or the letter from John. Normally I do not communicate with engineering but to the head of operations. The reason I did not get a response is he is not in this week.

VC has indicated they intend to get this situation worked out I have PM both poster here that have issues and asked them about an

 

[Gunner]

Finally got the video. Couple Q's
Do you have to let it get that hot before engaging the damper?
What temps does it settle in at?
Whats the "coolest" you can run and still get everburn? How does this effect spring/fall burning?

Being able to look into the stove threw the holes in the back is freaky.

Good work on the vid.

 

[tradergordo]

Elk - good points - and again it also goes back to the poorly written manual - something VC can easily fix (and they should!). We discussed this a while ago, but their old manuals went into great detail about how the stoves work, and the new manual doesn't cover it at all! You are right about the characteristics of the burn - and in my video you can see how the fire looks with the damper open, and how it looks about 20 seconds after closing the bypass to activate the everburn secondary combustion. What I should have added is what it looked like 15-20 minutes later with the primary air completely cut off. The flue temps were stable at about 800 degrees F, the slight rumble was still going, and there were basically no flames in the firebox - just nicely glowing orange coals. This is the beauty of "horizontal combustion" - you get nice hot fires that last as long as possible without the wood on top being consumed too quickly, all with little to no particulate emissions. A snapshot from an hour or two later would show the everburn still going, with stack temps maybe down to 700, same old glowing fire with little to no flames - keeping the house warm all night long.

Regarding the potential problem with the encore - perhaps for some reason the cast iron around the secondary burn chamber is not adequately insulated with the ceramic filament material? Not sure. The engineers seem to think its a leak issue. To the original poster - how did you go about testing the gaskets?

 

[tradergordo]

Finally got the video. Couple Q's
Do you have to let it get that hot before engaging the damper?
What temps does it settle in at?
Whats the "coolest" you can run and still get everburn? How does this effect spring/fall burning?

Being able to look into the stove threw the holes in the back is freaky.

Good work on the vid.

I like to bring it up near 1000 before closing the bypass damper, because doing so works nearly every time (and by "works" I mean the everburn doesn't stall out after 5 or 10 minutes). Now you can (and I have) close the bypass sooner, but your results may vary, sometimes it works fine, sometimes it stalls. Mine usually settles in between 600-800 within 20 minutes of closing the bypass. The coolest I can run and still get an everburn is about 500. Regarding spring/fall burning - it is VERY EASY to overheat the house - I'm still learning how to burn in warmer temps because even this week when temps got to the 40's the house hit 80. Its just a matter of changing how you burn, you need to build smaller fires and plan to let them die out completely.

"Being able to look into the stove threw the holes in the back is freaky." Yea, that is an interesting feature...

 

[begreen]

This doesn't explain the high stack temps. In the video the stack thermometer is about 18" above the stove. A thousand degrees seems really high to me. Isn't that a lot of heat being wasted by going up the stack? Are these *stack* temps normal for all of this style stove? What are other owners seeing?

Also, to my knowledge, the Quad Isle Royale does not use the same technology. From what I understand, although it too is a top loader, it should not be grouped with the VC, Lopi and Harman stoves. Its design preceeded these stoves and it does not get as hot in the rear of the stove. The Isle Royale has rear corner clearance of 6 inches. I can't corner install a VC, Lopi or Harman, but can install an IR. Can we get some reports on stack temps typical with the Isle Royale from Jags and Carpneil?

 

[cmcramer]

Elk wrote

All Non cat Encores and Defiants have rear and bottom heat shields not an option they are attached as standard equipment

Not exactly. The bottom heat shield was NOT attached, and my stove sits on an unpainted cement basement floor so my understanding is that the bottom shield is not required. Is this correct?

VC realized that the dealers are not preparing /education the customers as to the characteristics of using the everburn system

I agree, and I have been burning wood for 30 years, 5 different stoves.

VC head engineer first response was that of an air leak most probably the ash door latch or gasketing.

A brand new $2000 stove should not have an air leak, but I will certainly test for this. How do I test ? In Everburn mode, do I stick a smoking cigar under the stove? What's your suggestion?

Their second-guess it the stoves are being over fired.

Obviously. But being overfired by running them per VC manual. That's the point.

The third possibility the stoves are being overloaded. Yes it is possible to overload these stoves A fully loaded stove is loaded to the bottom of the rear damper exit. However with top loading it is possible to load over the damper all the way to just getting the top griddle closed about 6’ more inched are available that can be overloaded. Loading in that air space changes the airflow dynamics of the stove.

Interesting. As noted in my earliest posts and the Davidson letter, yes, glowing stoves happen in Everburn mode (550-600 surface temp) and re-loaded VERY FULL. Yes, I have, in fact, re-loaded to above the base of the rear damper door and glowing resulted. To avoid glowing I am now filling burn chamber about half full. If this is an issue, the manual and dealer sure should have emphasized it. How many woodstoves have a limit on how full you can fill the burn chamber? And wouldn't you think VC would have tested the heck out of these stoves - including maxing them out in every way - before marketing them?

Another part of the Everburn operations is raking the hot coals to the middle rear around the refractory everburn shoe.

I believe you.....but this is news to me. Not in manual. Never heard of such a thing before. I will test this out in up coming days.

Again there is also the possibility these stoves have some qc issues. VC would like to get them in their testing lab and see what the issues are. VC has indicated they intend to get this situation worked out

Some QC issues? I agree, again. VC can certainly have my stove back for QC testing. I want to be a good customer, and I hope they want to continue to be my woodstove company.

Thank for the help!

 

[tradergordo]

A brand new $2000 stove should not have an air leak, but I will certainly test for this. How do I test ? In Everburn mode, do I stick a smoking cigar under the stove? What's your suggestion?

Probably not a bad idea, although I would start with the traditional "dollar bill test". Starting to sound like a broken record now, but again there seems to be a problem with Vermont Castings manuals, my manual has a section called "Test and Repair the Door Gaskets" but the Encore manual doesn't seem to have the same. Anyway, it says:

"Air leaks can be caused by low spots in the door gaskets.

To locate such low spots, close each door on a
slip of paper and attempt to pull the paper free. If the
paper slips out without tearing, the gasket isn’t snug
enough at that spot.

If the seal cannot be improved by adjusting the door
latch, try shimming the gasket. Pack a small quantity of
cement or a smaller diameter gasket into the channel
beneath the gasket to lift the main gasket and thereby
improve its contact with the door frame.
If shimming does not improve the seal, replace the
gasket following these steps..."

Another part of the Everburn operations is raking the hot coals to the middle rear around the refractory everburn shoe.

I believe you.....but this is news to me. Not in manual. Never heard of such a thing before. I will test this out in up coming days.

Once again this is something left out of the manual, but mentioned to me by a CFM technician. My manual says:
"Once the fire is burning steadily, continue
adding fuel until a thick bed has been established on
the grate. The bed should be about 2” (50mm) deep
and should cover the throat opening into the secondary
combustion chamber that is located in the lower center
fireback."

OK - that's all fine and good, but how long is it going to take to establish a 2" deep coal bed across the grate? You can accomplish the same thing a heck of a lot faster by raking the coals toward that throat opening they mention. If you have a big bed of coals later, you don't need to mess with the coals, just reload and close the bypass. If the fire has really died down, I rake ash away from the throat opening and fresh coals toward the opening before reloads. This works well. And again hating to sound like broken record, but all of this info could be useful if it were in the owners manual.