Encore Non-Cat Overfires

[tradergordo]

One thing I've noticed is that those with complaints seem to indicate an inability to control their burn, dampering down and closing the air control does not seem to bring the fire under control. This indicates an air leak (or possibly excessive draft though this is less likely).

As for VC telling people a little glow is OK - well I have no idea about that, but I can say that the lower back corners are protected by the rear heat shield, I can also say that I have never seen this glowing before on mine, not the corners, not around the collar, and certainly not the heat shield. I don't think it can be all that common or more than one person would have mentioned it here (and again technically our man here did not describe what VC says is OK anyway). May also be worth noting that I have NO crimps on my flue pipe where it enters the flue collar (or anywhere else for that matter, its a non-crimping brand: 22 gauge HeatFab Saf-T pipe, which I definitely recommend). I can easily see where this might be a problem for some installs, the flue collar is not very deep, I wouldn't want any crimp on that piece. Unfortunately there is nothing specific about this in the owners manual as Gooserider mentioned (or perhaps worse, they talk about inserting a crimped end) - this is something VC should clarify in future manuals.

 

[BrotherBart]

One thing I've noticed is that those with complaints seem to indicate an inability to control their burn, dampering down and closing the air control does not seem to bring the fire under control. This indicates an air leak (or possibly excessive draft though this is less likely).

As for VC telling people a little glow is OK - well I have no idea about that, but I can say that the lower back corners are protected by the rear heat shield, I can also say that I have never seen this glowing before on mine, not the corners, not around the collar, and certainly not the heat shield. I don't think it can be all that common or more than one person would have mentioned it here (and again technically our man here did not describe what VC says is OK anyway). May also be worth noting that I have NO crimps on my flue pipe where it enters the flue collar (or anywhere else for that matter, its a non-crimping brand). I can easily see where this might be a problem for some installs, the flue collar is not very deep, I wouldn't want any crimp on that piece. Unfortunately there is nothing specific about this in the owners manual as Gooserider mentioned (or perhaps worse, they talk about inserting a crimped end) - this is something VC should clarify in future manuals.

Do us a test. Get that famous "rumble" going real good and turn out the lights and take a look back there.

 

[elkimmeg]

Goose valid points all listings require the inslaller to install the stove according to code compliance. That is emphatically stated. If the installer is not versed in code then maybe he should not be installing stoves. Without firing up my note book, all joints are required to be overlapped 1.5" coincidently is the length of the crimping, therefore no crimping should bee seen.
I agree the manuals should address the starter piece. iF stops are set only 1" deep. But the person installing the stove should be versed in code. When one can look between the valleys of the crimps and see what is going on in the combustion chamber, common senses should kick in. This is not normal. I would pass seeing the crimps if refactory cement filled the gaps or as I suggested using a starter piece or shortening the crimped area. that is my suggestion from years of experience. but no one should be able to see the fire between spacing of the crimps.

You just justified the reasons that for permitting and inspections to check that the code and listings instructions are followed ,Thanks, And I thought you were anti gov. Unfortunately I have seen too many flue collar connections that failed. I fail them not worring about stove preformance, but thw what if draft backs up. I worry about carbon monoxide leaking out that joint.

I'm a little perplexed here are you advocating one should ignore the carbon monoxide leak potential? because one is not versed in code and the listing does not mention the real threat?

One is allowed to do self installations. That does not allow the installer to scoff code, permitting, and safety. and if he does not know code then inspections become more important.

the point here is all posters complaining about everburn stove have flue collar to connector pipe leakage . Don't point the finger at me I'm looking for solutions and getting the first connection right and sealed, properly is the start

 

[Roospike]

Again i hate to be the one to ask the question.........but ..............

I asked the question about taking the spark screen out of a chimney cap as it was posted and i was told its the STOVE PIPE and parts that can not be redesigned , modified or tampered with as to VOID the UL listing of the pre-made chimney pipe.

So now my question would be if your trim , cut , change the pipe ( crimps ) does this not void the UL listing on the chimney pipe ?

If the chimney pipes are UL listed is there wording with VC in the install manual about only using this brand or that brand ? I cant imagine the stove would be built and not able to except standard UL listed stove pipe.

 

[Gooserider]

The things you say about installing to code being required are true Elk, but I don't agree that getting blessed by the sacred inspector pen is what makes the install safe... You've admitted that not all inspectors are as knowledgeable on this subject as you are (and I respect your efforts to improve that), and we've seen more than a few tales here on the forum of "walk-through" inspections that passed installs with serious problems, so inspections are NOT going to solve this problem.

Note that I am NOT inherently opposed to the idea of inspections on a voluntary and advisory basis. (indeed I've even mentioned to the GF the idea of asking if you'd be interested (during what seems to be your slow season) in coming up to look our house over and tell me what things I ought to fix and why - possibly with a priority order - I'm decent with tools and can do most sorts of repairs, but I'm not up on the problem identification side of things....) I certainly have no problem with knowledgeable groups creating codes saying how things OUGHT to be done, and with following that advice - you will note in my posts that I may not tell people to get inspections and permits, but that I ALWAYS tell them to follow code as best I understand it (and say if I'm not sure) with the possible exception of faking it for short term testing....

Where I take issue is with the "mother-may-I" aspect of the government telling me that I have to have their permision to build something on MY property, using MY money, etc. - if the insurance company wants to demand an inspection before they cover me, that's the insurance company's right to define under what conditions they are willing to do business with me. The insurance company can refuse to do business with me, (or I with it) but
I can't decline to do business with the gov't. If I try, they will send a bunch of blue suited thugs down to steal my property and / or put me in a cage. You frequently mention ORDERING people not to use certain things, or to change the way something is built - I'm not saying that you are wrong from a technical standpoint, I am asking who appointed you GOD :question: Elsewhere there is a thread about putting stoves in one's bedroom - and whether or not you would LET someone put a stove in their bedroom... Warn them about the hazards, sure, but if the owner says that he considers the risks worth the added ambiance, Who the he!! are you to say they can't do it? You aren't their mother, or even their BIG BROTHER, so why are you acting as one? {Important note - I'm saying "You" here as the generic inspector - this isn't intended as a personal attack!}

The other aspect that I resent is the notion that I'm told it's for my safety, but it sure seems like a revenue source - I know you feel under paid for the inspections you do, but I've also sat in Town Meeting and heard multiple officials in the town gov't tell us that permits are an important REVENUE SOURCE for the Town Gov't....

Getting back to the main topic;

Knowing what I know now, I would also say that looking into the crimps and seeing the stove innards would bother me. But if all I had was the manual, and I had religiously done what the manual said to do in all other respects, and noting the warning on the Fourth page that I should follow ALL INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY or my house might burn down - well if thats the way it looks it must be the way it's SUPPOSED TO LOOK - the manual told me to stick the crimp into the stove outlet, and they put a mechanical stop there to keep the crimp from going all the way in like it did on the rest of the pipes so it must be done that way on purpose....

Given that, I'd be down right peeved if the inspector then came along and told me to do it differently! Note that I am NOT scoffing at code or safety - I am trying to do the "RIGHT THING" just like the book told me to do, what do you mean the book is wrong?

I am NOT pointing the finger at you Elk, I'm sure you are correct on the technical aspects of it, but that doesn't change what the manual says either. If the finger should be pointed anywhere, it should be resting solidly on VC's head, and I hope you will tell them that when you talk to them next....

 

[Gooserider]

Again i hate to be the one to ask the question.........but ..............

I asked the question about taking the spark screen out of a chimney cap as it was posted and i was told its the STOVE PIPE and parts that can not be redesigned , modified or tampered with as to VOID the UL listing of the pre-made chimney pipe.

So now my question would be if your trim , cut , change the pipe ( crimps ) does this not void the UL listing on the chimney pipe ?

If the chimney pipes are UL listed is there wording with VC in the install manual about only using this brand or that brand ? I cant imagine the stove would be built and not able to except standard UL listed stove pipe.

Good questions Roo! I know when I bought an elbow from a local stove shop a while back, it came from the factory with no crimps on either end, the shop manually crimped it when I bought it, so they were modifying it as a matter of routine practice.

The VC manual didn't specify any brands of pipe, but did list various standards that different types of pipe should meet. As far as I could tell, there was nothing that would have made the requirment for the pipe going into the coupler any different from the pipes on the rest of the setup. In the single wall pipe section they mentioned that some makers offered "special slip sections" of pipe that might "eliminate the need to cut" the pipes, which implies that they thought it was OK to cut single wall pipe (double wall, and other types of chimney they said to "follow manufacturer instructions")

Gooserider

 

[rtljr]

I'm another Encore non-cat owner; almost two months of ownership. I too have had the same issue, three times now, with a glowing red back around the area of the flue collar upon reload. Stove temperature on the left top will rise to the 500 - 550 degree range. Stove pipe temperature (single wall) one foot above the flue collar has been as high as 650 degrees as measured by a Rutland magnetic thermometer. In all three instances the stove top temperature increased by a maximum of 100 degrees while the stove pipe increased from 300 degrees at reload up to

Wicked rumbling is evident during these conditions. I can see fire in a gap around the flue collar when in updraft mode and when the stove "runs away" there is visible glowing inside the flue collar followed by glowing on the rear of the stove around the flue collar. This glowing starts on the right (as viewed from the rear of the stove) of the flue collar and then progresses to the left. The glowing starts at the junction of the top of the stove and the rear plate around the flue collar, marches downward and then starts to progress along the bottom of the flue collar with the two glowing trails heading towards each other.

The first time this happened, I rode it out. The second time I switched to updraft mode and covered the logs with cold wood ash. In all cases the primary air control was set to the minimum air flow setting. The second runaway was during a reload at 4 AM and I could see the reflection of flames flickering off my hearth pad under the air inlet at the rear of the stove. On the last runaway, I stuffed an insulted oven mitt into the air inlet and things settled down within about ten minutes. (Thanks to the poster who relayed how to stop a runaway Detroit Diesel somewhere on this forum, it worked with my Encore too!)

My Encore is hooked up via single wall black pipe to a ceiling thimble. From the thimble, there is about seven feet of double wall stainless to a thirty degree elbow followed by another thirty degree elbow to clear a roof truss. From there it is a straight shot up through the roof with about eight feet of double wall stainless to clear the ridge.

It sounds like some commonalities are present here. I look forward to continuing to follow this thread. In the meantime, I am not operating my stove as glowing red parts constitute overfiring per my owner's manual and voids the warranty on this $2,000 stove. In addition the paint at the top of the rear heat shield as viewed from the rear of the stove is flaking off. Perhaps this stove got a wee bit too hot.

 

[elkimmeg]

Again i hate to be the one to ask the question.........but ..............

I asked the question about taking the spark screen out of a chimney cap as it was posted and i was told its the STOVE PIPE and parts that can not be redesigned , modified or tampered with as to VOID the UL listing of the pre-made chimney pipe.

So now my question would be if your trim , cut , change the pipe ( crimps ) does this not void the UL listing on the chimney pipe ?

If the chimney pipes are UL listed is there wording with VC in the install manual about only using this brand or that brand ? I cant imagine the stove would be built and not able to except standard UL listed stove pipe.

Roo we are talking single wall stove vent pipe here naturally you are allowed to cut it to fit it to length Single wall stove pipe is not UL listed its rolled up 24 gage steel the same steel you ciy in your shop Are you saying it you cut a sheet of steel you loose the UL listing? that"s Ridic I think you read something wrong here or missinterpeted some thing said cutting Single wall pipe has nothing to do with UL listings making proper tight joints and using the right gage metal is all that is required.

 

[cmcramer]

If you have a defective stove where is your dealer in all this. Please give me the background info. I want to help you if I can. For me to press the issue with my contacts at Vc I have to know the details including your dealer you purchased it from and his response. To be fair I also will run this by Jack, if he is the distributor for your local. How did you get this letter from CFM?

I called the Dealer - Truax and Hovey, Liverpool, NY. I described the issue to "Howard" (cell 315-374-1535) , who said he'd look into it. An hour later, Howard calls to say VC Field Rep - Bob Carpenter - faxed him a letter and I can receive a copy. Also, Field Rep says VC will "stand by their product" and will call me and perhaps visit in 2-3 weeks "when he is in my area."

Also, I do not see flames through my unsealed crimps at flue connection at any time.

I'm heading out to get tools now....gonna take off rear heat shield, inspect, and seal crimps as I reassemble flue connection. Then fire it up and observe.

Thank you all very much for your interest in my stove issue.

 

[elkimmeg]

ok here are common factors all those that have experienced oveer firing do not have a good d seal flue collar to connector pipe all can view fire threw the connection.

there are 2 flue collar options for this stove the standard 8" oval or the optional 6" round The first question I have is which flue collars do these stoves have?
the second variable is these flue collars can be reversed to exit to the rear or to the top is the rear exit or top exit used in these cicumstances? If reversed from factory settings is the flue collar seated properly. If not, could they be leaking adding to the problem, Again no poster has supplied any dialoge with there dealer and in no case has the dealers been out to trouble
shoot these issues, Why????? This is what the dealers are suposed to do. Who has confirmed these stoves are properly setup? os the Everburn shoe seated properly
Are all the connecting bolts properly tightened who has checked this? Is the flue collar properly seated? Where is your dealer in all this, to comfirm and trouble shoot these issues?

After all it is the dealers that get the technical bulitins as to current problems and fixes. No manufacturer puts them on public forums that's why they setup dealer networks.

Can anyone tell me where their dealer stands on these issues? Why is it being hashed out here? There is something wrong in the way this is going down. The people trained and
most qualified to solve these problems are not being heard from Why?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this and get some answers but I need to know why dealers and tech support have not been involved. and if they were what did they do and what is their take on the situation? Every new stove requires some assembly and setup who is checking to see if these stoves in question are setup properly?


Part of the setup requires adjusting the door latch and ash cleanout door latch. A poor sealing ash door, definitely spell conditions of overfiring as does the front door seals,

Who is confirming these seals are not contribution to these condition. I did get an e-mail from VC telling me that dealers have to check the everburn shoe alignment ans seating and gasket
seal. Again who is setting up these stoves? who is checking out all the possible issues. Are all these stoves defective? Why has the dealer not replaced them if they are defective?

Almost nobody on a public forum has the expertise to trouble shoot your stoves, especially true for a recent technology stove.

Again what is your dealer input?

 

[rtljr]

8" round oval flue collar, top exit on my non-cat Encore. Dealer is coming over Saturday to look over their installation. Will post dealer findings after that time.

 

[cmcramer]

I have a 6" vertical flue collar. Just took it off, and the gasket material was smushed flat underneath- good seal, I'd say. Both doors and ash drawer also have good, tight seals as judged by the force required to turn the handles tight. The stove does keep a good, long, very steady fire under almost all conditions. As for dealer response, please see my previous post.

I took of the rear heat shield off just now. The rear heat shield on these stoves 'stands-off' the cast iron rear plate of the stove 1 to 1.5 inches...but NOT in all areas. Right next to the flue collar, where the heat shield comes to an end, the heat shield bends in toward the cast iron at 90 degrees, such that the edge of the heat shield actually touches the cast iron. This leaves a 1 inch strip of the rear cast iron plate exposed and visible, right next to the flue collar bolts. The portion that glows red has actually been this cast iron - not the heat shield itself, although the heat shield has still lost paint. I apologize for misleading you - an honest mistake.

But still....., most of the rear cast iron plate on this stove is now rust-colored: no black paint left. So the letter from CFM/VC does, in fact, describe my issue! With the heat shield off, you can inspect the entire back cast iron plate, including the rear corners normally covered by the heat shield, and it is almost all rusty. That whole dang thing is glowing red, I'll bet!

Gonna seal it up, seal those crimps, and fire it up. This will be a good test.

So thanks to all who were alarmed at my "the heat shield glows red" statement. You were right to sound the safety alarm, I was wrong. Nevertheless, we still have a glowing red CAST IRON back plate issue, as acknowledged by CFM/VC letter.

 

[tradergordo]

Do us a test. Get that famous "rumble" going real good and turn out the lights and take a look back there.

DONE, there is nothing to see! I'd be more than happy to make a video if it would help, then at least those who are interested can hear what that everburn rumble should sound like anyway... but there isn't going to be anything else very exciting to see, nothing glows, you can't see fire looking down at the flue collar, etc.

NOTE: I have a dutchwest large, which is quite a bit larger and heavier than the Encore - IF there is an engineering issue (and that is still a big IF) my guess is that it's related to the smaller stoves not being built to properly handle (exchange) the secondary combustion heat. Although I REALLY can't understand HOW something like that could POSSIBLY have been missed in testing the product before it ever went commercial. Only guess I have is that the owners with complaints either have much more draft than they ever had in the VC labs or they have leaks (and the evidence points to the leak theory - you SHOULD NOT be able to look down at the flue collar and see fire!).

My stove has a firebox that is almost 50% larger than the encore's, and I pack it as full of wood as I can every night, and I've never seen any glowing stove parts, nor has any paint flaked off ANYWHERE on the stove.

 

[elkimmeg]

I have inspected at least a dozen everburn stoves, I have yet to hear one complaint. I know the flue collar connection is correct or I would not pass the inspection... Then one has to ask, if they can't get the first connection right , then what else is not up to snuff? Now we have posters wanting to diss the crap out of a manufacturer because of posters with incorrect installs and installed illegally. Sounds about right?

Then why the hesitation to install the donor stove?

Like you I am reading these post and now have concerns. I mean there exist a letter from Vc stating glowing red is ok? I think that alone would kick in a concern?

I don't want to be part of installing a flawed designed stove. Remember inspectors are not part of stove opperations, only that they are installed code compliant.

 

[elkimmeg]

I sent this e-mail off to the the head of VC opperations in Vermont

"Dale this letter has found its way onto a public forum. In one day it has gathered so much interest that 800 people have viewed this post. Some posters have swapped stoves to other manufactures some have suggested recalls.
Owners are confused should their stove glow red it voids the warranty, but this letter acknowledges it is a common occurrence. The past few weeks the Everburn stoves are severely questioned. IT has come to a point, that almost all readers looking at your everburn product post are not considering VC products. Every manufacturer states glowing red is a condition of over firing. It will take a lot of PR to convince the public that Glowing red is acceptable. Again Hearth.net would welcome input from CFM. As to the reasons this occurs and any work arounds

the letter

November 3, 2006
Subject: Glowing Rear Components

I am writing this letter in response to reports that parts of the rear cast assemblies on the Resolute Acclaim and some of our Everburn Woodstoves are glowing red. The hot flue gases do hit the sides here while turning to go vertical in the rear lower right and rear lower left of the stoves. On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull “blood red” glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar. These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.

If further questions arise, please contact me.

Sincerely yours,
CFM Corporation
John Davidson
Senior Technical Advisor

 

[elkimmeg]

What happens if Vc requires you to fax in a certificate of inspections before warranty work is issued? There listing requires these stoves to be installed per listing which clearly states code compliance? That piece of paper can be required .It is proof the instalation was done right,therfore it must be a problem with the stove?

Not one of the complainers has answered the question I asked about if their stoves were permitted and passed compliance. I take a lot of **** to complain about illegal installations.

I"ve come to the conclusion, I can no longer help stoves that are illegally installed. To me these installation scoff the very ground I stand. By helping,
I am encouraging more people to scofff my profession, that I work dilligently at.

 

[Shane]

Elk I can see your point, but what about the stories we constantly hear about people having to drag the inspectors by their ears to actually inspect even though they've purchased their permits? How many stories have we heard when people call the AHJ they say an inspection is not necessary? There are people here that could not get an inspection, it's not their fault. And you must admit that not everyone does/knows their jobs like you. Many times inspections can be nothing but a technicality as the inspector is not familar enough with the products/codes they're inspecting/enforcing. You know the stuff that we've seen passed that shouldn't have been. VC should be able to confirm proper installation via the dealer. A couple of the people having problems have mentioned that their dealers will be arriving to check the situations. I wouldn't sway from helping folks with un-inspected installs, they're not scoffing the ground on which you stand. How many times have you helped folks out that have recieved bad info from their dealers/ahj's/friend and family members? You know that ignorance is excessively prevalent in this industry and that people put their trust in people they shouldn't. Is that not a major function of this site for us with experience and knowledge to help those without? If it weren't for the pro's on this board (and others with solid knowledge) where would some of these folks be? I can tell you some of them probably wouldn't be typing from warm comfy non-burnt down homes! Now it's different when we encounter people who say they don't care about codes etc. Those are the ones to write off.

 

[TMonter]

There listing requires these stoves to be installed per listing which clearly states code compliance?

Code compliance does not mean an inspection is required. Both my Wood stoves are properly installed to code, but have never been inspected by anyone other than the insurance company.

 

[elkimmeg]

shane in many rural states I would agree with you but two posters are from NY which borders Ma and I know they enforce code. The other is from Billirica Ma a town of 40,000 and here is a link to there goverment page.

(broken link removed to http://tinyurl.com/2e3q8j) [edit: Tiny link by Mo for readability.]

The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college. I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.

 

[TMonter]

The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college. I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.

I can find nothing on their site that someone replacing a stove has to have the new stove re-inspected. I can imagine that it would need to be installed per the code.

Do you have a better link?

 

[Shane]

shane in many rural states I would agree with you but two posters are from NY which borders Ma and I know they enforce code. The other is from Billirica Ma a town of 40,000 and here is a link to there goverment page.

Each situation should be judged differently. If they didn't get the inspections and they're required then they should. Of course this may or may not be the issue. They could be installed perfectly. I understand you pointing out that we just don't know. I'm really interested to see the response from VC to your letter. They've talked a big talk about "being a believer" and I've believed (blindly) let's see what happens with this situation. Even if the Everburn system does end up needing changed or something I still believe that VC has produced some of the finest stoves ever made, and while not considering a certain model for a possible purchase is reasonable. I don't believe that saying "I would never buy a VC" is reasonable. If that's the case then I will never buy a Ford Chevy or Dodge etc.

 

[elkimmeg]

The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college. I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.

I can find nothing on their site that someone replacing a stove has to have the new stove re-inspected. I can imagine that it would need to be installed per the code.

Do you have a better link?

codes in Ma which mirror the national codes

http://tinyurl.com/22o462 [edit: Tiny link by Mo. This link was broken, anyway. Hey elk, how about using Tiny!]

 

[elkimmeg]

The building officials attended my seminar last year at Bridgewater State college. I have my notes and the flue collar to connector pipe was covered.
In the state of Ma we require a solid fuel affdavit stating the the installation was preformed according to code. It is part of the wood stove permitting application available to all 351 citties and towns posted on the state web site.

I can find nothing on their site that someone replacing a stove has to have the new stove re-inspected. I can imagine that it would need to be installed per the code.

Do you have a better link?

codes in Ma which mirror the national codes

[edit: bad link deleted to prevent MASSIVE scrolling! Elk, use Tiny!]


try this link
[edit: another bad link deleted by Mo.]

 

[TMonter]

None of the links work. All come up 404 Not found

 

[Highbeam]

shane in many rural states I would agree with you but two posters are from NY which borders Ma and I know they enforce code. The other is from Billirica Ma a town of 40,000 and here is a link to there goverment page.

Each situation should be judged differently. If they didn't get the inspections and they're required then they should. Of course this may or may not be the issue. They could be installed perfectly. I understand you pointing out that we just don't know. I'm really interested to see the response from VC to your letter. They've talked a big talk about "being a believer" and I've believed (blindly) let's see what happens with this situation. Even if the Everburn system does end up needing changed or something I still believe that VC has produced some of the finest stoves ever made, and while not considering a certain model for a possible purchase is reasonable. I don't believe that saying "I would never buy a VC" is reasonable. If that's the case then I will never buy a Ford Chevy or Dodge etc.

Hi Shane, it is very very common for folks to remain loyal to brands and disloyal to others based on brand alone. Especially Truck brands. The VC appears to be a fine product, it is the company position in this situation which leads me to label the brand as fighting an uphill battle. "Never" is a strong word and I won't say never, but I will say that the competition has an automatic leg up over that red hot potatoe. I am eagerly awaiting the VC response. VC sure takes a bashing on other sites as well. I guess all publicity is good publicity.