Encore Non-Cat Overfires

[cmcramer]

tradergordo -

It sounds like the 'rake the coals' technique is to help the subsequent load of wood to burn HOT enough and properly engage the Everburn once the damper is closed.. Is this right?

I have the opposite issue - too hot!

 

[tradergordo]

This doesn't explain the high stack temps. In the video the stack thermometer is about 18" above the stove. A thousand degrees seems really high to me. Isn't that a lot of heat being wasted by going up the stack? Are these *stack* temps normal for all of this style stove? What are other owners seeing?

Don't know how much difference it makes, but I believe that thermometer is 14" above the stove top, which is slightly lower than the 18" recommended height (I think I read the instructions after drilling the hole ). In my particular case the high stack temp doesn't make much difference because I have a long single wall flue all inside the room (with vaulted ceiling) so I recapture a lot of the heat that would otherwise be wasted. But for all I know it was designed the way it is for good draft and low creosote (this is probably one of the biggest trade offs woodstove engineers must deal with - the balance between heat exchange & draft).

Also, to my knowledge, the Quad Isle Royale does not use the same technology. From what I understand, although it too is a top loader, it should not be grouped with the VC, Lopi and Harman stoves. Its design preceeded these stoves and it does not get as hot in the rear of the stove. The Isle Royale has rear corner clearance of 6 inches. I can't corner install a VC, Lopi or Harman, but can install an IR. Can we get some reports on stack temps typical with the Isle Royale from Jags and Carpneil?

Isle Royale uses top mount burn tubes - totally different design. You have to keep the flames going to get secondary combustion with that model of stove. From the (broken link removed to http://www.fireside.com/downloads/installManuals/man_isleroyale.pdf):
"The next stage of burning, the secondary stage, is the period
when the wood gives off flammable gases which burn above
the fuel with bright flames. During this stage of burning it is
very important that the flames be maintained and not allowed
to go out. This will ensure the cleanest possible fire. If you
are adjusting your stove for a low burn rate, you should
close down the air to the point where you can still maintain
some flame. If the flames tend to go out, the stove is set
too low for your burning conditions."

 

[tradergordo]

tradergordo -

It sounds like the 'rake the coals' technique is to help the subsequent load of wood to burn HOT enough and properly engage the Everburn once the damper is closed.. Is this right?

I have the opposite issue - too hot!

First - yes, this does not apply to you at all, you have no problem getting secondary burn to work!
To clarify the purpose of raking the coals toward the throat - this is to superheat the gasified wood (AKA smoke) before it hits the secondary combustion chamber, mixes with air and bursts into flame. The bigger the coal bed around the throat opening, the easier it is to achive good secondary burn. This is less important once you have a big coal bed established.

 

[ansehnlich1]

I've followed this entire thread, along with all other threads regarding Everburn Technology. I had stated in previous threads I would not purchase a stove with the Everburn Technology in it, and I remain convinced of this.

I have not sold wood stoves, nor have I any claim to any expertise regarding them, but I have a suggestion for wood stove manufacturers......

Make a stove that

1. burns wood

2. heats a home

3. is easy to work

 

[elkimmeg]

The raking the coals also does this it removes the ash and fly ash that accumulates in the mix and it dropps down into the ash pan. You will receive a better burn without the ash inbetween the coals

Anioyther thing that happens over time is bark and falls off the logs insertyed in the top and at times deposits on the griddle top gasket when that happens the seal is not as good from time to time I take a soft paint bursh and clean it off naturaslly at 500 degrees to not attempt cleaning it I anso find ash accumulates on the bottom front doors again with a soft pain brush I gently sweep them.. I agree the manuals could do a lot better job od haw the stove runs and how to opperate it. This is also partly the responsibility of the retailer dealer and his installer to take the time to explain how to opperate the stove. Trader any way to post that info I gave you about the horrizontal burn mode with the diagrams of how the smoke and air parth are designed you know the first 8 pages of the older VC manual

Idealy the coals are stirred to remove the ash and piled over the everburn shoe so the air is drawn threw the real hot coals threw being better than over them and also remove tha sah so it too isn m not drawn in with the air fly ash reduces preformance

 

[Highbeam]

I've followed this entire thread, along with all other threads regarding Everburn Technology. I had stated in previous threads I would not purchase a stove with the Everburn Technology in it, and I remain convinced of this.

I have not sold wood stoves, nor have I any claim to any expertise regarding them, but I have a suggestion for wood stove manufacturers......

Make a stove that

1. burns wood

2. heats a home

3. is easy to work

I agree, maybe these super fancy technology stoves are not for me. Plane old non-cat looks much simpler for the 24/7 burner. It's hard enough to prepare firewood, light the fires, feed the stove, and regulate the temperature without screwing around with these extra features. I like long burns, I like clean emmisions, and I like efficiency but cripes, does the typical wood burner want to babysit the heck out their stoves all the time? Making the operation of burning wood too complicated will surely backfire.

 

[TMonter]

With the amount of problems users seem to be having with the Everburn technology, it makes me wonder why VC has hung onto it. There are a lot of other non-cat stoves out there that are not temperamental and don't have the issues this line seems to have.

Maybe it's just me but it sounds like the VC non-cat technology in this stove is encumbered by too many variables to ever work right without tons of fiddling.

If VC doesn't make a solid effort to resolve the issue here, I can't see how I could ever recommend one of their stoves to anyone.

 

[tradergordo]

Trader any way to post that info I gave you about the horrizontal burn mode with the diagrams of how the smoke and air parth are designed you know the first 8 pages of the older VC manual

(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Defiant_Vig_Res_Intre_Pre88-0226.pdf) is unfortunatly just a graphical scan, I could convert it to text electronically for posting, but its easier to send people to the link instead. If you are interested in:
"Economics and Efficient Combustion, The How and Why" and "Fuel Limiting" which covers the "horizontal combustion" concept and the "magazine system" concept, its on page 4 of the document linked above.

As for the ribbing on Vermont Castings - I like to be scientific about things and honestly because I have not owned any other stove, I can't compare apples to apples. Having said that, I see complaints from users of every manufacturer - just go to the hearth.com review engine and see for yourself. From what I've been able to determine, every stove has its quirks, you have to learn how to operate it with experience. And sometimes a stove might have a defect, or an installation might have problems. There are different stoves for different people, I think like with anything, its a matter of trade offs. Simplicity might come at a cost (which could be shorter burn times, greater emissions, etc.)

I've gotten pretty used to operating my stove and I'm comfortable with it now, I also appreciate what it is capable of, I think it does a very good job of heating my house and burning efficiently. I don't know how other models would compare, but I have my reservations about "burn tube" style stoves which seem very popular today, and the catalytic models which seem to have more complaints than any other designs in general despite the very big praises they get from some owners. Also I think some people are not very objective when commenting on their own stoves so I don't know what to believe. I guess in the absense of a serious independent review (like "consumer reports") the only person I really trust is myself - boy would I love to try about 10 different stoves in my own house under as nearly identical conditions as possible... but that's never going to happen. I think its interesting to note that the ONE person so far here who traded his everburn (Dutchwest) stove back in for another model ended up getting a stove that some other person apparently didn't like and traded back to the shop, and the traded in dutchwest went to some other guy who was looking for a used one.

A handful of people complaining about a stove doesn't necesarily mean that stove is garbage, if they sold 100,000 units and 1% have complaints, that's 1000 unhappy people - maybe not so good, but is it different for other stove companies (again go read the reviews on hearth.com)? I don't know. I had a gasket problem with my stove initially, if this same problem impacted many units, then you could have a lot of overfiring stoves out there... in my case I caught the problem immediately and fixed it, but that's because it was obvious, might not be so obvious in other instances. The fact that there are absolutely no operating temperatures listed in the manual doesn't help people who want to know if they are overfiring their stove.

I'm not ready to write VC off, but they obviously need to do a better job of training their dealers and writing their manuals. Owners (and Dealers) need to be proactive in looking for potential problems, especially with a new install, and addressing concerns quickly. Of course it doesn't help if there is a problem and VC is brushing it aside. I too think they should participate in this forum - its probably the best way for them to sell stoves anyway - basically free advertising, so their absence certainly doesn't win them any points.

 

[pmacleay]

Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues. It does sound like your stove is burning hot. I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets. Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted. You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both. If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap. Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove. Open and close the primary air lever. You will feel the flap opening and closing. When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps. It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help. Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.

 

[elkimmeg]

See Vermont casting is watching and monitoring our forum. I know as I was on the other end directing, the manager of engineering to this site ,reviewing this post, while being on the phone with him. They are reviewing what is said here. Its late Friday so not much more will be done today. It will be looked into.

Vermont thanks and welcome aboard Hearth.net Its great to see your company presensce here

 

[Roospike]

This is what "I" would do ..........

Call your dealer and have the dealer address the issue(S) of the everburn , stove , install and let them trouble shoot any issues and problems.

If the issues and problems can not be addressed and fixed by your local dealer .........................

***GET A DIFFERENT MODEL and or GET A DIFFERENT STOVE******

With all these threads and pages of post of issues on the Everburn stoves its obviously not an issue that is going to be fixed here , if the issue is just a small QC problem or its the stove design let the dealer find out the problem otherwise go a different direction.

Just my o2¢

 

[Gooserider]

While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem. This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.

We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height. My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap. To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...

However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap. Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension. The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.

It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."

Gooserider

 

[Gunner]

Surface temp when re-loading = 500-600
Surface Temp when glowing = 600-650

These are approximate, taken with a new $12 thermometer. The surface stove temp is definitely below the 700+ range, that's for sure, when 'blood red' glowing happens.

Now, this condition does not happen every time. It seems that I can avoid it by letting the stove burn down a little longer before refueling, or by adding only half a load of new wood. But I don't want to run my stove like that!

Bottom line nothing should be glowing with a 650* stovetop.

No stove should take this much fiddle farting around to operate properly.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

While on the topic of manual problems, I've spotted another issue that could cause a problem. This is one where VC isn't the only offender - I've got a downloaded Hearthstone Heritage manual with the same issue It is also possible that I'm misunderstanding the code, if so I think there's a possible clarity issue with the code.

We all see frequent reference to the "2-3-10" rule about chimney height. My understanding is that the height measurment is to the top of the flue exit where the smoke comes out, and does NOT include the cap. To me this just seems intuitive as one could otherwise have a chimney with a low exit and a tall cap...

However of the FIVE VC manuals I have, THREE show a chimney with what looks like a cap on it, with the dimension line drawn to the top of the cap. Two have a truncated cone like object that is included in the dimension. The Hearthstone manual is worse however - in other pictures that use the same style of chimney the top peice is specifically labeled "chimney cap" - and the dimension lines go to the top of the cap screen and don't include the "roof" of the cap.

It would seem to me like they could come up with a clearer drawing, or possibly include one additional sentence in the blurb on the rule such as "These dimensions are to the top of the chimney only, and do not include any chimney cap."

Gooserider

I dont look at manuals when i sell chimneys, mabey i should. when i address the 10/2/3 rule i use the pipe only, before the cap is installed. that rule is used to prevent downdrafting eddies of of other roof structures, so if the top of the cap is in that envelope, i would say thats bad. As elk likes to say, better safe then sorry.

 

[cmcramer]

Vermont wrote

I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets. Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted. You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.

Will do - tomorrow morning when stove cools.

If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors.

I've owned two other VC stoves - I can do this, too.

Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble.

Hmmm. I guess I'm being asked to do a gasket leak Quality Control check ........on VC's gasket leak Quality Control check. I will, because I want a properly fuctioning woodstove.

Another place to look would be the primary flap. Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove. Open and close the primary air lever. You will feel the flap opening and closing. When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps. It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely.

Will do.

Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.

I did. CFM/VC rep just gave me the John Davidson line: "Not a real problem, Sir, if it happens now and then."

Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.

Glad to have you on this forum, Vermont. And right now ...... I am a long time Vermont Casting owner who is not satisfied with his new stove, but willing to work with you to resolve this issue.

In other news: I do not even have to 'overload' my stove to get a glowing red condition! Today I half-filled the burn chamber with hardwoods and it glowed red.

Stay tuned for my leak test results.

And thanks to all.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

no way in hell would i sell a stove knowing its going on a 30' chimney without a damper. No way. No damper no sale. Granted you might have a leak, but IMO i think its overdrafting like a mother...

 

[Gunner]

no way in hell would i sell a stove knowing its going on a 30' chimney without a damper. No way. No damper no sale. Granted you might have a leak, but IMO i think its overdrafting like a mother...

I would have to agree, but he says the stovetop temps are less than 700 when glowing. What gives? He also asked VC about the damper they said NO WAY.????

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

thats because off all the fresh air rushing over the damper, cooling the top surface, and the everburn is in the back cranking at 200% capacity. I think that it was a bad move for VC to recommend not putting a damper in. If it were my stove, i would try it.

 

[elkimmeg]

Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.

MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap. That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each

Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE

This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today by the largest manufacture of hearth products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Put a damper in, i will send you a 10lb sack of fat wood free of charge if im wrong.

 

[Gunner]

I see...Didn't think there was enough air at the top to keep temps lower with the air completely shut down. Were does the primary air enter?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

the secondary combustion system is where its entering, which is not controllable by any leaver. (at leasnt not in any secondary combustion stove i have ever seen)

 

[Gunner]

Gunner I working diligently in getting the first representation of a manufacturer to address issues on out board this is a giant step forward. There are alternative solutions for each owner with overburn stoves agreeable to them and VC. But the popost has become bigger that these two IT VC stepping up to the plate here.

MSG I agree sounds like overdraft. Aslo it would not be the first $10 stove top thermo that read incorrrectly I got 4 here you can have cheap. That's why I monitor the stoves with 2 each

Gunner where was PE to slove the guy in NY that could not produce heat in his PE summit. IF you remember correctly I had a hand in getting that resolved Not PE

This may be a good thing Hearth,net got reconized today by the largest manufacture of hearth products in America Hopefully we can attract some of the other major players

What is your point? I can't ask questions because someone named vermont is stepping up to the plate?

What does one incorrectly installed summit have to do with this thread? Nobody from PE wrote him a letter saying it wasn't supposed to produce heat!

Chill Elkmiester

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

So, to clarify my theroy, once you shut down the primary air, it forces all the air to be pulled through the secondary combustion system, which in a overdraft situation pulls to much air through the stove making hot spots. All the air rushes through the system, making the air rush throgh the back of the stove over fireing where the gasses are and rushing over the baffle in the top, bringing the temp down (or the rear exit without a baffle sucking all the heat out of the stove). Making the top burn cool or normal, and the back glow red. Other symptoms of overdraft are short burn times, and lack of control of the primary air lever.
I challenge VC's recomendation of no damper. This is like the classic overdraft situation, which can ONLY be controled by a damper or a catalytic stove.

 

[elkimmeg]

Really I shiould have gone back and read the post over. He has a 30' straight shot chimney? the more and more I think about it I agree with MSG Overdraft.

most hardware stores have in line dampers for single wall pipe. Your stove would not be the first one that required that extra draft control especially 30'
If this is the case, then almost every modern stove would exhibit simmilar symptons. Many an inline damper have solve simmilar over draft issues in Jotuls.