Dissapointed in New Blaze King King

[Squisher]

Attaboy and I have already mentioned it earlier but here in Canada ducting or use of a hood to funnel heated air from a space heater into the return air of a FAF is strictly prohibited. There is no 10ft away rule or reference. A FAF must not draw more return air then It supplies to a room that a space heater is in. In the WETT manual it's very clear, strictly prohibited by NBCC. They show a picture of this exact type of setup with a big X through it. One of the major reasons is because of negative pressure problems. Negative pressure means no draft, as well as the potential for pulling co out of the stove and distributing it around the home. It's been frustrating for me because the WETT manual just references the NBCC But doesn't give the actual number of the section/clause it's referencing. Normally it does.

If you plan to use the continuous operation of a furnace fan to distribute heat from a space heater installation, the duct system should not be altered in any way. Equal air must be supplied as the air removed. Also curious trevj what your electrical bill is like if you are continuously running that furnace fan to move heat?

I'm sorry but for me the buck stops there. I've heard no reference by trevj that he is going to change that setup. The plan seems instead to fix things to continue using it the way it is.

So I'd be curious to know from the inspector trevj has referenced or the latest contact of the sweep/installer who seemed well versed in code, their take on this setup? Or from anyone in Canada with experience with setups like this?

 

[showrguy]

What happened to page 15 ?

 

[Attaboy]

Attaboy and I have already mentioned it earlier but here in Canada ducting or use of a hood to funnel heated air from a space heater into the return air of a FAF is strictly prohibited. There is no 10ft away rule or reference. A FAF must not draw more return air then It supplies to a room that a space heater is in. In the WETT manual it's very clear, strictly prohibited by NBCC. They show a picture of this exact type of setup with a big X through it. One of the major reasons is because of negative pressure problems. Negative pressure means no draft, as well as the potential for pulling co out of the stove and distributing it around the home. It's been frustrating for me because the WETT manual just references the NBCC But doesn't give the actual number of the section/clause it's referencing. Normally it does.

If you plan to use the continuous operation of a furnace fan to distribute heat from a space heater installation, the duct system should not be altered in any way. Equal air must be supplied as the air removed. Also curious trevj what your electrical bill is like if you are continuously running that furnace fan to move heat?

I'm sorry but for me the buck stops there. I've heard no reference by trevj that he is going to change that setup. The plan seems instead to fix things to continue using it the way it is.

So I'd be curious to know from the inspector trevj has referenced or the latest contact of the sweep/installer who seemed well versed in code, their take on this setup? Or from anyone in Canada with experience with setups like this?

I believe the OP mentioned somewhere that the shroud and heat recuperation system is operating off a thermostat, if so it is not running continuously but more intermittently, however not really better either way, it is banned, as well over and above the air out / air in situation should something go wrong with the stove or a fire flare up in the basement that system will quickly become a killer by rapidly distributing suffocating smoke and CO throughout the house and kill the people living in the house. These old systems were not designed and approved by engineers, in 99.9% of cases it was done after the fact and concocted in a home brew inspiration for a heat recuperation scenario with out much after thought to potential deadly consequences.

 

[lsucet]

from page 16 click on "prev"

 

[Coyoterun]

What happened to page 15 ?

It's there. You just have to click "prev" or "next" to get all of the pages sometimes.

I don't know why some of them are getting blanked out.

 

[BigFir]

Could he simply cover the opening of the vent to make it to code or would he have to entirely remove the hood?

 

[Attaboy]

What happened to page 15 ?

From the last page click on '' PREV'' it will take you to the previous page.

 

[Attaboy]

Could he simply cover the opening of the vent to make it to code or would he have to entirely remove the hood?

I believe it is to be removed / disconnected from the main central heating system or in the least remove power to it so the circulation fans are non operational.

 

[husky345 vermont resolute]

I always have my furnace fan on to distribute air and my bill isn't bad. It's only 120 volt motor nbd .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Squisher]

If you have a modern variable speed ecm motor on your furnace maybe nbd. But if you have a old furnace it can add up.

You can figure it out with a formula(ohms law).

 

[Squisher]

Could he simply cover the opening of the vent to make it to code or would he have to entirely remove the hood?

It would probably be simpler to remove it and cover the opening in the ducting but either way if it was sealed off it should be ok. The rules as I see it are that a FAF can't take more makeup air than supply air it provides to a room/area with a space heater in it. How that is achieved, by either removing or just closing off the hood I don't think would matter.

 

[lsucet]

Guys lets help the guy with the main topic of getting that stove to produce some heat that way him and his family can stay warm. the problem of the stove not giving heat is not cause the hood or his air distribution. Some has hood like him, others vent thru the floor etc etc etc. regardless all that he has a different problem that is keeping the stove from producing enough heat for his comfort.
If there is an issue with the install causing CO,CO2 etc, it will be killing them with hood or not, with fan on or not. The stove still inside the living space. I don't know if the hood and fan will make it faster but the worse will still happening.

 

[Marshy]

@trevj, you and I have a lot in common in regards to our stove setup and also for our heating demand. I found out we really have a lot working against us with the stove configured like we have and I've had my own struggles I could share. In my opinion there is no conceivable way you are going to get the heat you need without making some significant changes to your stove configuration and I think you still might need to put to bed the question of moisture in your wood. I don't believe your stove is operating at its full potential and if it was, its still uncertain in my mind that it will give you the heat you need. Regarding stove configuration, things you should consider addressing in order of priority are;

1) Raising your thimble above the stove to the maximum while complying with code regarding minimal clearance to combustibles to the floor joist is a good start. At that point I would install a 8" round thimble to maximize the available flow area.

2) Use a double wall close clearance pipe between the stove and thimble in place of that single wall you have now. DuraVent makes a "DVL" connector pipe you might want to look into. (Search the internet, you can usually find it cheaper with free delivery than local dealers sell it for.)
The purpose for the double wall pipe is to help maintain the flue temperature which is the primary factor that creates draft. A higher flue temp also will help mitigate creosote buildup which I suspect you will have an issue with at the top of your chimney.

3) Lastly, consider installing an insulated liner in your existing chimney. Easier said than done because you may not have the minimum required space for the size liner needed to satisfy the stove requirements, even if you bust out the existing clay liner.

There are two primary considerations for needing/having an insulated liner installed; 1. after performing the above recommendations you still cannot obtain the necessary draft as spec'ed in the manual (0.05 inches of WC operating on HIGH) or, 2. you are having a creosote buildup issue.

Insulated liners will reduce the heat loss to the chimney (into the masonry) and will ensure the proper draft and mitigate creosote by maintaining the flue temperature so the condensable gasses stay a gas while in the pipe. Even if you are able to are able to achieve the 0.05" of WC draft as spec'ed in the manual without a liner you might (likely in my opinion) will have creosote formation in the top of your chimney. The exact amount of buildup will be highly dependent on how much heat remains in the flue gas by the time it reaches the top.

Depending on how much work you plan to tackle yourself, you could do #1 and #2 on your own. I did and it cost my approximately $5-600 USD. The cost of the DVL pipe was about approximately $480 and consisted of a 24" straight, two 45 elbows, a 12 telescoping section (always include a telescoping section, ALWAYS!), an adapter and a thimble connector. The rest of the cost was a new thimble, thimble cement, motor mix, 4" masonry cutting wheel, a 12" long 3/8" masonry drill bit, and a couple trowels.

I believe even your existing single wall pipe could be arraigned in a better configuration. The horizontal piece between the thimble your upper 45 elbow is killing you. I highly recommend you connect your upper 45 elbow directly to the thimble and add length between the two 45 elbows to compensate for the removed horizontal. While I wouldn't want you to minimize the vertical rise section any, you should attempt to minimize that horizontal run at all costs. The more vertical rise straight out the top of the stove the less smoke spillage you will get during reload.

I hope you're still with us here I know this is getting lengthy.

All of that aside, take a dive into your manual to the back and review the trouble shooting section. Lets look for commonality among the issues you described, primarily smoke spillage and poor output of the stove.



I previously mention smoke spillage and vertical rise out of the stove... Not much else to discuss other than that's why I recommend raising the thimble. Also the poor draft of the chimney or a cold chimney is a commonality for poor output of the stove, see below.



Poor draft can be caused by an oversized flue but it can also be cause by low flue gas temperatures. The thermal mass of the masonry chimney will absorb the heat from the flue gas. You have a large heat sink that is going to consume heat and cause poor draft (and creosote). My chimney is the same height as yours but its only one core of blocks to support one 8x8 inch clay liner. Your chimney not only has the masonry block around your 6x10 liner but it appears you also have an adjacent liner in the chimney for your fireplace. Additionally, the top 8 feet or so is exposed directly to the ambient air where mine is in a chase-way all the way to the cap. This keeps the cold wind off the masonry an slows the heat transfer taking place. I'll spare you further rambling about this.

I quickly will mention that I also bought my stove with no fans and operated it for several weeks/couple of months without them. The most notable thing I found was by having the actual BK fans on the stove the thermostat damper seemed to open more and could burn the wood s little faster and get more hear out of the stove. The thermostat seems to operate based partially on the metal temperature of the stove. Without the fans stripping the heat off the stove the stove seemed to close down that damper sooner as compared to having them on. Plain and simple, more heat is able to be transferred to the living space with the fans. The heat will not roll off the stove and go straight up like your old stove could (natural convection), this stove needs forced convection, i.e. fans. I run my stove flat out on high heat non stop and I know what you are going through.

See any other similarities here with creosote buildup?


I strongly suggest you get your hands on some of those compressed wood blocks mentioned earlier and load the stove to the gills with them and see if there is any improvement in your stove output. If there is then you need to realize that your wood is not dry enough. If there is no significant change in the stoves performance then you can conclude the stove has poor draft and need to get a draft measurement. If you can get your hands on a bunch of kiln dried 2x4 scraps then use those. If your cat probe thermometer is not going higher than half into the active range then this supports the theory of wet wood. It should be no problem for that needle to reach the top of the active zone.

 

[Woody Stover]

could be arraigned

No doubt about it, someone will be arraigned before all said and done here.

The horizontal piece between the thimble your upper 45 elbow is killing you.

Yessir, that would be a real easy fix, something he could do in half an hour, and it would be interesting to see how much difference in draft and stove top temp it would make.

 

[showrguy]

I was wondering if you were gonna chime in here Marshy..

 

[Woody Stover]

While we wait for something to happen...I stumbled across this the other day; Have you ever seen a manual with so much useful information?
(broken link removed to https://sbiweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/2606/45060a_04-08-2016.pdf)

So moving the stove to the upstairs is out of the question?

He likes the heat down in his man-cave. Occasionally, his reverie will be interrupted by his wife's faint cry from the top of the stairs...."I'm freezing!" But usually he remembers to lock the door on his way down.

 

[begreen]

SBI does some good documentation.

 

[Marshy]

I was wondering if you were gonna chime in here Marshy..

Matter of time I reckon.

@trevj, if you have spare time and want to read about large stove comparisons then head over to this thread I started. I don't know if we did much comparing after page 2 but it will consume that spare time lol.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/large-stove-comparison.159811/

 

[webby3650]

While we wait for something to happen...I stumbled across this the other day; Have you ever seen a manual with so much useful information?
(broken link removed to https://sbiweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/2606/45060a_04-08-2016.pdf)

They pretty much cover everything on their manuals. Heck, they even send a French manual just in case!

 

[webby3650]

It's interesting that they don't speak very highly of outside air in their manuals. The one ☝️ doesn't mention it, but some of their others warn of condensation issues.

 

[Squisher]

Guys lets help the guy with the main topic of getting that stove to produce some heat that way him and his family can stay warm. the problem of the stove not giving heat is not cause the hood or his air distribution. Some has hood like him, others vent thru the floor etc etc etc. regardless all that he has a different problem that is keeping the stove from producing enough heat for his comfort.
If there is an issue with the install causing CO,CO2 etc, it will be killing them with hood or not, with fan on or not. The stove still inside the living space. I don't know if the hood and fan will make it faster but the worse will still happening.

I'll drop it. But if you think this hood on the cold air return is similar to a vent in the floor you clearly are not understanding the situation.

 

[trevj]

Outside air wouldn't hurt. But you can't go up with it, it needs to be even with or lower the firebox floor. Can that happen?

Likely not, if I cannot draw from through the perimeter framing above the level of the concrete basement wall.

I would otherwise need to draw air through a ground level vent along the wall by the basement walkout door, and run it across the traffic path on floor level.

We gonna consider that a non-starter? because it sounds like that from here.

Cheers
Trev

 

[trevj]

So what was the guys plan for putting a liner down that chimney for the king?

What was the interior flue measurement again?

If you guys talked code and this guy was a walking encyclopedia of it, what'd he say about the hood?

Said that the hood was dropped off Code in 2010, after a proposal for the 2005 code. He didn't seem much concerned for my health. But he did say it wouldn't pass.

Didn't talk plans. Just spitballed a few ideas, spitballed, a really rough estimate, and went through some of the issue he saw from my description.

I got 6 1/2 by 10 inches, inside dimensions, when I reached through the thimble to the flue.

Cheers
Trev

 

[Niko]

Said that the hood was dropped off Code in 2010, after a proposal for the 2005 code. He didn't seem much concerned for my health. But he did say it wouldn't pass.

Didn't talk plans. Just spitballed a few ideas, spitballed, a really rough estimate, and went through some of the issue he saw from my description.

I got 6 1/2 by 10 inches, inside dimensions, when I reached through the thimble to the flue.

Cheers
Trev

why is your glass so black? f your burning on high their is no way it should be black, also you bypass door was open in the picture and the thermostat on full blast and no flames in the box. was iot even on at the time of the picture?

 

[Coyoterun]

[snip]
The bypass needs to be closed to make proper heat, but it looks like it's not burning at all in the photo.

With the bypass closed and the thermostat all the way up, do you get a big roaring fire or what?

[snip]

I hope trev checks the thermostat . What if he's only been using 50% of the range? He says he hears it clack closed a lot which shouldn't happen much at 600 degrees on the stovetop. Simply spin the little black knob full clockwise until it hard stops and verify the pointer is pointing directly at the ground. Ignore the label, spin the knob full clockwise!

Do you think he would tell us if he hadn't been engaging the cat? Only engaging the cat during reloads causing smoke rollout? Trev, when at your computer looking at the stove, spin the cat handle full clockwise to engage the cat and get the heat.

Trev, did you see these posts about the bypass? Is it possible you got the bypass mixed up? I've never seen a BK King, so I don't know how easy it is to mix up the positions. But that would certainly explain the symptoms.