FYI on the P&M BL28. I talked to P&M last week and then said should burn somewhere between 10-15 cord a year. 14 year old well insulated cape cod, total hating of 3,000 sq. ft., 85 feet boiler to house, property located in central PA. Any P&M seem to be a good boiler, but the P&M factory said there gasser in my climate should be about 8-10 cords. I'm looking at an indoor gasser. Been there done that on the OWB. The one I got rid off ate wood and/or coal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
CANT DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER
- Thread starter dspoon19
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Buzz Saw
Minister of Fire
Is it possible that this unlimited free wood could become limited or go away in the next 5-10 years? The old saying "if it's too good to be true" keeps popping up in my head about your wood situation. B/c like you said
Another thing to consider, at least for me, is someone else filling up the burner. By someone else I mean the wife. I'm gonna play hell getting her all bundled up to go fire an OWB. Sshe will have to slip on shoes and coat for the walk to the shed, but once inside she won't have cold snow blowing on her while she tries to wrestle big chunks of wood.
Ever thought of processing your unlimited free wood and selling it to pay for a gasser? Best of both worlds?
Is there a P&M dealer in the area? I haven't decided yet how important dealer support is going to be for me on my purchase. Are there any gasser dealers in Ohio?
How much will this run?$$$$
So at best would save 7 cords a year. That is pretty significant in my book. I am still young and foolish and I think I need to try the OWB. For what I am paying now in propane I can live with the hassles while the boiler pays itself off in 2.5 heating seasons.
Every year Lorain cuts down hundreds of trees. Most get chipped up and sold as mulch. I know a lot of people that work for the city and can hook me up with free wood. Lately I have been cutting at a horse farm that I found on craigslist that is closer to my house. They needed their 40 acres of prime hardwood thinned out and I was happy to oblige. Its not 100% I can always get free wood but id say its 97% for sure. Even if I have to pay I found amish selling 3/4 cord bundles for $20.
I've thought about that. Good hardwood cords around here go for about $190. I work a lot of hours for work now and wood prep for sales would cut into my hunting and fishing time even more!
There is a dealer in Mansfield. He is hard to get ahold of and slow to get back to you. I am trying to get ahold of P&M directly to see if they have another dealer in the area or if they do direct sales.
Ive seen prices between 7K and 7.5K for the BL28-40. Optimizer 250 will be more around 9K+ I think.
Did get a Hawken Energy quote on a regular OWB, model HE-1130. $6300 from dealer in Oberlin. Hawken does make a gasser but I cant remember the price now.
And a CB 5036 for $6600. This is what most people have around me.
hobbyheater
Minister of Fire
Where abouts in central PA you from? Do you have a good dealer close? I run back and forth through PA all the time.
Buzz Saw
Minister of Fire
dspoon19,
Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed? If that is the case have you check out this site? (broken link removed)
(broken link removed) looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there. If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to
I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started. What do you think?
Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed? If that is the case have you check out this site? (broken link removed)
(broken link removed) looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there. If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to
I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started. What do you think?
Pricing is big for me. I burn wood to save money so its all about the $/BTU for me. I don't do this for convenience because if that was the case I would just get geothermal or stick with propane. Obviously I'm not going to start an open campfire outside and have a fan suck hot air in the house but I'm also not going to spend top dollar on a gasser because it saves me a few cords of wood.
I've burnt wood indoor for 25 years with my parents. For me the process never made sense. For them it was all they knew.
My thoughts on burning indoors; you have to get the wood indoors somehow. This means trekking the wood through the house into the basement or installing a wood shoot. One costs money the other costs a lot of time. Or you leave the wood outside close and go outside and get it, but I think this defeats the point of having an indoor system. You will bring bugs, spider, fleas, ticks, and at some point you will bring in a few mice. That's just part of bringing wood indoors. I am not 100% sure on this but at some point your indoor furnace will probably have a back draft and smoke will come in the house for a second. I like the smell of a fire burning but I like it when I want to smell it not when I am required to smell it. Burning indoors your going to suck all moisture out of the air so you will have to keep a humidifier running to keep the house from drying up. I can attribute many bloody noses to this cause when we first started burning we didn't have money for a humidifier. You will have to go through the house with a bucket of hot ashes at some point. There's also the risk of a fire hazard. Plus I don't want my basement taken up with wood and a boiler room to contain the mess.
These are just some of the reasons I don't want to burn indoors. And if I go with a gasser and have to put it outside, then I have to construct a small shed for it (more money), then I gotta put the storage tank(s) somewhere. Gassers are nice because they are low emissions and burn a few less cords of wood. I think their upfront extra cost of the unit plus all the extras that go with it that a regular OWB do not require makes a world of difference long and short term. I am still working on the spread sheet that shows the costs of both units and compares their cost per year and time savings over the life of the furnace. I am going to assume a few scenarios. First is that wood is free and second scenario that wood is not free. I am also going to assume that a gasser burns have the wood.
I like that your asking questions and picking my brain about this. It makes me think of all angles!
maple1
Minister of Fire
I'm not going to tell you which way to go, but...
I can appreciate a decision to go outdoors - but it should be an informed one.
Sounds like your mind is made up to do that - I would go with a gassifier. After you pay for it you will need to live with it for hopefully a long time - that long time is when you will appreciate the reduced wood consumption & smoke production. The initial price difference will then seem quite insignificant.
I can appreciate a decision to go outdoors - but it should be an informed one.
Sounds like your mind is made up to do that - I would go with a gassifier. After you pay for it you will need to live with it for hopefully a long time - that long time is when you will appreciate the reduced wood consumption & smoke production. The initial price difference will then seem quite insignificant.
Those were just my observations from indoor burning for 22 years. I think I will have to "live" a shorter time with the OWB. Most people around me are 10 cords or less. Besides saving time, what does spending the extra money on the boiler get me? Fuel is free so count that out. I'm still going to have to go out and feed both types. What does spending the extra money get me besides an estimated 10 hours max of wood cutting time savings?
Theoretically if the house is sealed air tight, and the only moisture in the house comes from the occupants, and the furnace combustion air blower takes in the same air that is in the house, shouldn't the moisture in the air be sent out the flue? The furnace has to breathe from somewhere correct? So where does it take in air from? An outside source? If so then that's OK. But if it sucks in air through all of the air leaks in your house, doesn't it bring in cold dry air with it? This would go against the purpose of heating the house and trying to keep moisture at an acceptable level?
You have to make a new fire every time you clean out the ashes?
A very good dealer in central PA is Twin Springs Plumbing and Heating in Somerset, PA. (broken link removed) Ask for Matt he is a good fellow and will answer all your questions honestly and not just tell you what you may want to hear. They are selling a lot of the Nature's Comfort as well. I was more curious than anything when I called the P&M factory about a price on a BL2840 with the shakers. The quote was $8,300. Matt had one for sale last week on ebay at $7,885.
I agree with you about some of the short falls of bringing wood in the house, but I work a lot of hours as well and found out cutting wood to keep up with heating the house was not near as much fun as cutting wood to heat the house. These things do eat a lot of wood. It appears everyone I have talked to and what I've read around the net says a gasser of any kind will use less wood. When it comes right down to it how much is all relative as there are so many variables to consider. You could install the outdoor boiler I had and may cut less or more. Like I said lots of variables. One thing about the outdoor gassers is that everyone I talk to says there is a learning curve to firing them, and generally more maintenance than an indoor one.
No doubt about it with today's oil and lp gas prices the outdoor boiler will pay for itself. But there is a lot of work involved and life doesn't afford me the time like it did when I first got it to feed it. On the flip side, a guy down the road built his own home made OWB and figures he will use about 6 cords this winter. Then again he was on the junkyard wars some years ago so could probably make an old pinto heat his house. By the way, he built our house as well as his, and his house is very similar to ours but has more square footage.
I agree with you about some of the short falls of bringing wood in the house, but I work a lot of hours as well and found out cutting wood to keep up with heating the house was not near as much fun as cutting wood to heat the house. These things do eat a lot of wood. It appears everyone I have talked to and what I've read around the net says a gasser of any kind will use less wood. When it comes right down to it how much is all relative as there are so many variables to consider. You could install the outdoor boiler I had and may cut less or more. Like I said lots of variables. One thing about the outdoor gassers is that everyone I talk to says there is a learning curve to firing them, and generally more maintenance than an indoor one.
No doubt about it with today's oil and lp gas prices the outdoor boiler will pay for itself. But there is a lot of work involved and life doesn't afford me the time like it did when I first got it to feed it. On the flip side, a guy down the road built his own home made OWB and figures he will use about 6 cords this winter. Then again he was on the junkyard wars some years ago so could probably make an old pinto heat his house. By the way, he built our house as well as his, and his house is very similar to ours but has more square footage.
maple1
Minister of Fire
So at best would save 7 cords a year. That is pretty significant in my book.
Besides saving time, what does spending the extra money on the boiler get me? Fuel is free so count that out.
You're contradicting yourself again. Either the wood you burn has value to you, or it doesn't - I'm reading you saying both in different places.
So where does it take in air from? An outside source? If so then that's OK.
Mine comes from a slightly cracked open basement window right behind my boiler. Moisture from other places such as showers, cooking, & drying laundry will more than make up what will go up the flue in a tight house.
You have to make a new fire every time you clean out the ashes?
No - I make a new fire every day. And when I do I scoop a few ashes out before doing so. That is life batch burning a gassifier to storage. I made one fire a year in my old one, sometime in October - but I wouldn't go back to that way now for anything.
I think you have your mind made up - so good luck.
Besides saving time, what does spending the extra money on the boiler get me? Fuel is free so count that out.
You're contradicting yourself again. Either the wood you burn has value to you, or it doesn't - I'm reading you saying both in different places.
So where does it take in air from? An outside source? If so then that's OK.
Mine comes from a slightly cracked open basement window right behind my boiler. Moisture from other places such as showers, cooking, & drying laundry will more than make up what will go up the flue in a tight house.
You have to make a new fire every time you clean out the ashes?
No - I make a new fire every day. And when I do I scoop a few ashes out before doing so. That is life batch burning a gassifier to storage. I made one fire a year in my old one, sometime in October - but I wouldn't go back to that way now for anything.
I think you have your mind made up - so good luck.
"Esperiesia docet" is Latin for "experience is the best teacher". The Romans figured it out a long time ago. Some people are able to shorten the learning process by taking advice from people that have lived the real world experiences while others will not take advice and move blindly forward. There is no reason to stress out or even sympathize when you know they are headed in the wrong direction. You've done your part.
I suppose it would be fruitless to bring up the pollution caused by nearly all non-gasification equipment.
I suppose that it would also be fruitless to mention that a typical OWB emits as much smoke and particulates as 600 packs of cigarettes being smoked in your yard. Every day.
I suppose that the link between childhood asthma and a high particulate environment would also make no difference.
I suppose mentioning that a typical OWB emits as much air pollution into your yard as 4 diesel semi's idling there all day would make no difference either.
It's the American way. What's the cheapest and there is nothing else to consider........
PS.....One of my 4 wood burning sons has an OWB (came with the house when he bought it) and he cannot wait until the day when he can ditch it. He is tired of the endless cutting splitting hauling stacking loading day and night through the snow and cold. He is tired of the mountain of ashes he has to deal with. He is tired of the smoke blowing through his yard and stinking up the house when the wind is wrong. He is ready to be done with hearing his neighbor (1/4 mile away) complain about the smoke and odor.......
As they said above......some learn from others experience, some learn the hard way. Your choice.
I suppose that it would also be fruitless to mention that a typical OWB emits as much smoke and particulates as 600 packs of cigarettes being smoked in your yard. Every day.
I suppose that the link between childhood asthma and a high particulate environment would also make no difference.
I suppose mentioning that a typical OWB emits as much air pollution into your yard as 4 diesel semi's idling there all day would make no difference either.
It's the American way. What's the cheapest and there is nothing else to consider........
PS.....One of my 4 wood burning sons has an OWB (came with the house when he bought it) and he cannot wait until the day when he can ditch it. He is tired of the endless cutting splitting hauling stacking loading day and night through the snow and cold. He is tired of the mountain of ashes he has to deal with. He is tired of the smoke blowing through his yard and stinking up the house when the wind is wrong. He is ready to be done with hearing his neighbor (1/4 mile away) complain about the smoke and odor.......
As they said above......some learn from others experience, some learn the hard way. Your choice.
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I learned my lesson when I was still a child. We didn't have a lot---OK we were poor. Not poor like today but back when poor people were skinny for lack of food. We are now live in a consumable society that has never learned to conserve anything. What's wrong with saving that extra 7 cords for down the road or for the good of someone else?
Perhaps the OWB will rot out about the same time those extra cords of wood start becoming more difficult to process because of your age and physical ability.
Perhaps the OWB will rot out about the same time those extra cords of wood start becoming more difficult to process because of your age and physical ability.
hobbyheater
Minister of Fire
Dspoon 19!
Do you understand the concept of the load required to make a outdoor gasification burn as a gasifier?
P&M 250 Optimizer max output 190,000 BTUs per hour with a load of 10,000 BTUs per hour. Will this load verse output work?
Do you understand the concept of the load required to make a outdoor gasification burn as a gasifier?
P&M 250 Optimizer max output 190,000 BTUs per hour with a load of 10,000 BTUs per hour. Will this load verse output work?
http://www.ascd.org/publications/ed...t09/vol67/num01/What-Would-Socrates-Say¢.aspx
out of left field maybe, but very relevant to the point Fred is raising..in my mind it explains the issues...maybe we are going about it the wrong way....it is more of a systemic problem manifesting itself in a individualized format..
Sorry for the tangential vector...but again that is part of the intelligence in this forum.
Scott
Started reading that link, skfire. It just makes me mad. Only because it's true. Critical thinking is dying quickly. Two girls I've got at home prove it daily. Asked to make grilled cheese this week, all we got was "I don't know how". We suggested they figure it out...lost cause.
I'm convinced the majority of the would will die within a few weeks if there were ever a global calamity that destroyed the power grid.
I'm convinced the majority of the would will die within a few weeks if there were ever a global calamity that destroyed the power grid.
I would like to learn more about the particulate emissions of the two boilers. Every where I look they just say "lowered emissions". Where can I find up-to-date particulate information on both standard OWB's and gasification units?
I have honestly not considered particulate emission up until this point and would like to learn more.
Does anyone out there have first hand experience with both an OWB and a gasser unit? If you do, do you have side by side numbers to compare everything? Cost, emissions, combustion efficiency, heat transfer efficiency. I want all numbers side by side under identical real world conditions.
If everyone cared about efficiencies we would all drive a Toyota Prius. It has efficiency, low particulate emissions, and gets the job done. Based on theory it should be the perfect car and everyone should have one. Theory is just that. I am here for real world numbers.
If everyone cared about efficiencies we would all drive a Toyota Prius. It has efficiency, low particulate emissions, and gets the job done. Based on theory it should be the perfect car and everyone should have one. Theory is just that. I am here for real world numbers.
hobbyheater
Minister of Fire
This is real world conditions temp minus 5 c ! Jetstream gasification boiler at full output air is just hot enough to be uncomfortable to breath , the air smells no different than the air that would come out of a furnaces hot air duct .
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