CANT DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER

[dspoon19]

Interesting thread from a few months ago.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/best-owb-video-i-have-ever-seen.113364/

This is an example of what can be seen on YouTube and there are plenty more. So you will have to decide on what would be a good neighbor distance.
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I think this is just bad boiler operation and improperly seasoned wood. I've see conventional boilers run very efficient with low moisture wood and they hardly smoke at all once up to temp.

 

[Charles1981]

My neighbor works for a tree service. Has an OWB (heatilator) and burns green wood in it. I've seen them go through at least 10 cords so far this year. I mean it heats his 2500sq foot house and 1500sq foot pole barn but still. Holy wowza. It is a lot of work to go through that much wood...They are loading that OWB 3-4 times a day (probably because the burn such green wood).

And it can be annoying some days. Both him and my other neighbor have one, and some mornings its just billows of smoke heading our way.

 

[dspoon19]

My neighbor works for a tree service. Has an OWB (heatilator) and burns green wood in it. I've seen them go through at least 10 cords so far this year. I mean it heats his 2500sq foot house and 1500sq foot pole barn but still. Holy wowza. It is a lot of work to go through that much wood...They are loading that OWB 3-4 times a day (probably because the burn such green wood).

And it can be annoying some days. Both him and my other neighbor have one, and some mornings its just billows of smoke heading our way.

Yea I definitely don't want to be the guy that smokes all the time. My wood is all very seasoned. 10 cords is ridiculous to even deal with even if it's free and he can get all what he wants. I would not even own a wood burning appliance of any sort if I had to deal with 10 cords or more and had to pay $190 per cord. At that point for the small money savings I'll just stick to lp.

 

[Charles1981]

his wood is free but seriously...it is so much work for them. He is always complaining. I can't even start to bring up "proper" burning practices with him. He thinks I am crazy having 7-10 chords on hand the year before for next year. We are on good terms and I don't really even want to go there..he is the wood professional.

They are about 1000 feet away, but I still get the smoke my way. It really isn't that bad, but noticeable every so often, but I could see how some would be VERY sensitive about it especially those sensitive about asthma and respiratory issues.

 

[hobbyheater]

I think this is just bad boiler operation and improperly seasoned wood. I've see conventional boilers run very efficient with low moisture wood and they hardly smoke at all once up to temp.

This was what we owned for our first boiler. It burned well seasoned old growth Douglas Fir. It smoked worst than the one in the first video. The worst smoke occurred as the boiler would cycle up and just as the smoke would clear up, it would cycle off. We did not have happy neighbors. The concept of a primitive boiler like this will heat your home but is also totally inefficient.

. At that point for the small money savings I'll just stick to lp.

If saving money is the only reason for burning wood it sets off warning bells.
I have always enjoyed the firewood collecting routine but I enjoy it a lot more when only putting up 4 1/2 cords per year as opposed to 22 cords per year.

 

[maple1]

Yea I definitely don't want to be the guy that smokes all the time. My wood is all very seasoned. 10 cords is ridiculous to even deal with even if it's free and he can get all what he wants. I would not even own a wood burning appliance of any sort if I had to deal with 10 cords or more and had to pay $190 per cord. At that point for the small money savings I'll just stick to lp.

You're kind of contradicting yourself in places - saying 3-4 cords wouldn't be that much of a saving to you, but no way would you burn 10 cords a year? If you go with a non-gasser OWB, I would bet money you'll be looking at significantly more than 6 cords. Just read Maulers post # 46 back a page - 6 cord vs. 12+. 6 cord a year is 60 extra cord burned by year 10. That's $11,900 at your $190/cord figure - nothing to sneeze at.

 

[flyingcow]

flyingcow,
The point(s) that I was trying to make to you are these:
(1)Central Boiler does make a true gasser. (2)They function in the same manner as a Garn, Tarm, Econoburn, etc.
Your post implies that they do not on both accounts.

The title of this post suggests in no uncertain terms that the OP is contemplating whether to choose a conventional OWB or an OWB that is a gasifier. No thread derailment here.

Whether he chooses an indoor unit or an outdoor unit, it should be a gasser, not a conventional.

You're starting a peeing competition again. Maybe an E-Classic is technically a gasser, but it's not nearly refined as the indoor gasser's that are used by members here. You'll use more wood with a CB and you will have more smoke issues compared to an indoor gasser. The only exception I see to that is the Econoburn OWB. Which it was pointed out before, it's the same boiler they have as an indoor unit, just insualated with a an outside jacket.

As I have pointed out before, the numbers that were given to me from the E-Classic salesman. A cord of seasoned wood will replace a 100 gals of oil.My neighbor who has one, verifies these numbers.

An indoor gasser, 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 150/175 gals of oil. I have and others on this site have verified these numbers. A E-Classic is a step up from the old 6048's, but not much.

All i want to point to the OP is the E-Classic is not as efficient as an indoor gasser. And you will have no smoke after start up. E-Classic has made some really off the wall claims on efficiency.

 

[hobbyheater]

I will try and give short explanation of what causes the white smoke.
The fire box is completely surrounded by water with max temperature 190 F.
Fire box is loaded up with dry wood, water temp drops to 140 F, draft opens and a large percentage of the charge is ignited.
Water temp hits 190 F, draft closes, brisk fire is choked but still smolders with little smoke visible out of the chimney but the smoldering wood is still making creosote that now attaches to the fire box water surrounded walls.
Water temp drops to 140 F, draft again opens, smoldering wood again starts to burn but this is a low temperature fire creating much smoke and as it gets hotter, it will ignite the creosote that has attached itself to the firebox walls creating more smoke and keeping the smoke going until the water temp again reaches 190F when the draft shuts down. It is an endless cycle.
You would need a very large load that would keep the draft open for long periods of time to clear up the smoke. Your load does not appear to be that large.

Heat storage allows a boiler to have that continuous load.

 

[2sons]

Had an inefficient, basic OWB and would go through a minimum of 16 + cords of wood a winter. That was heating a 14 year old 3,000 sq. ft. house plus hot water. Saved a lot on wood cutting by burning soft coal, but make sure your neighbors are far away. When firing it with the coal it looks like a steam locomotive from the old western movies.

 

[stee6043]

You're starting a peeing competition again. Maybe an E-Classic is technically a gasser, but it's not nearly refined as the indoor gasser's that are used by members here. You'll use more wood with a CB and you will have more smoke issues compared to an indoor gasser. The only exception I see to that is the Econoburn OWB. Which it was pointed out before, it's the same boiler they have as an indoor unit, just insualated with a an outside jacket.

All i want to point to the OP is the E-Classic is not as efficient as an indoor gasser. And you will have no smoke after start up. E-Classic has made some really off the wall claims on efficiency.

I can certainly see the point you're trying to make, cow, but I think the disconnect here is that you're referencing the e-classic unit itself and not the "system". In my humble opinion, the reason an e-classic will not compete with an indoor unit is primarily based on the fact that it is designed to idle (huge firebox) and designed to be outside.

I would argue that an E-Classic installed in my basement, hooked up to my storage, and run full-bore with zero idling would be very close in terms of efficiency to most of the indoor gassers we have. I've never seen an e-classic in person but the fundamental down draft, HX concept seems to be very similar to the EU boilers.

Installed outside and used as designed (extensive idling) I fully agree with what you're saying about the e-classic, Cow.

 

[stee6043]

I would like to add another two cents from the viewpoint of a suburban wood burner using an EU gasser:

If I lived in the middle of nowhere on 100 acres of my own property filled with trees I would find myself seriously considering a standard OWB for my central heating needs (or an outside gasser, who knows).

All of us gasser owners know the realities of needing dry, quality, properly processed wood for our boilers. There is not a doubt in my mind that my brother in law (who runs a CB 60XX) and I spend almost exactly the same amount of time processing wood each year even though he uses 2x-3x as much as I do. Why? Because he only splits pieces bigger than 10"-12" in diameter. I have to split everything down to 4". Hour for hour, I save nothing in terms of time. In fact, I think I might spend more time some years depending on which stacks I'm using.

If there were no neighbors to worry about I can surely understand the appeal of dropping a tree and tossing it into the fire. As my BIL says "a good chimney fire helps clean the flue". And he has one or two per year I believe. Good for him.

If I was outside any metro area I would have zero problems burning green wood and sleeping well at night knowing that I'm wasting a lot of wood (renewable) but saving a lot of time. The forest fires in Michigan each year are doing more to pollute than my OWB ever would. I've never lost sleep over the hundred campfires I've had beers around...yet.

So there, that's my two cents on OWB's. It's unfortunate in my opinion that people with close neighbors or in places with poor air quality choose to run their boilers irresponsibly. This is why the OWB will surely go the way of the Pinto. But I don't think we do ourselves any justice by constantly bashing OWB's and their owners. Running an OWB is a lifestyle choice just like anything else. Just because they burn XX the wood doesn't necessarily mean the responsible OWB owner is any more a slave to their boiler than us "super eco friendly" gasser users are...

 

[dspoon19]

As of now I use around 30,443 BTU's of energy per hour to heat my house, heat my hot water and run my stove. I am only looking to heat the house with the addition of an outdoor wood burning appliance. What is the best outdoor wood burning appliance that will achieve this + a small cushion of BTU's? I am looking for best mix of $/BTU for the furnace itself and performance/life.

 

[hobbyheater]

As of now I use around 30,443 BTU's outdoor wood burning appliance that will achieve this + a small cushion of BTU's?.

Examples
Portage & Main Ultimizer Max output 225,000 Btu's per hour gives you a cushion of 194,557 BTU'S per hour .
Portage & Main Optimizer max output 190,000 BTU'S per hour gives a cushion of 159,557 BTU'S per hour.

 

[maple1]

As of now I use around 30,443 BTU's of energy per hour to heat my house, heat my hot water and run my stove. I am only looking to heat the house with the addition of an outdoor wood burning appliance. What is the best outdoor wood burning appliance that will achieve this + a small cushion of BTU's? I am looking for best mix of $/BTU for the furnace itself and performance/life.

You will have to come to that conclusion (which is best for you) yourself, by gathering all the info & weighing pros & cons with your priorities.

IMO, with a heatload that small and what would be a very large cushion inherent in any OWB, an OWB is not the best solution at all in either $/BTU, or performance, or life.

I'm out of this one...

 

[martyinmi]

You're starting a peeing competition again. Maybe an E-Classic is technically a gasser, but it's not nearly refined as the indoor gasser's that are used by members here. You'll use more wood with a CB and you will have more smoke issues compared to an indoor gasser. The only exception I see to that is the Econoburn OWB. Which it was pointed out before, it's the same boiler they have as an indoor unit, just insualated with a an outside jacket.

As I have pointed out before, the numbers that were given to me from the E-Classic salesman. A cord of seasoned wood will replace a 100 gals of oil.My neighbor who has one, verifies these numbers.

An indoor gasser, 1 cord of seasoned wood will replace 150/175 gals of oil. I have and others on this site have verified these numbers. A E-Classic is a step up from the old 6048's, but not much.

All i want to point to the OP is the E-Classic is not as efficient as an indoor gasser. And you will have no smoke after start up. E-Classic has made some really off the wall claims on efficiency.

Once again, my friend, explain what you mean by "not nearly as refined" please. I believe the E-Classics have a three stage burn. Three separate solenoids that, when working in unison with the controller, determine how much air is introduced as well as the location said air is introduced.

I have friends with E-Classics and they DO NOT SMOKE. The only two instances where they might would be when (1) bridging is experienced (same as yours) and (2) immediately after burn cycle is complete, but it only lasts for a few moments.

If you have your Tarm in a barn and not in your home, you know as well as I that you have as much radiant loss as the E-Classic, right?

From what I've read about the Econoburn OWB's they are a fine unit, but they cannot possibly be any more or any less efficient than the E-Classics. Their designs, as viewed from their websites, show both units share the same efficient downdraft design and a similar heat exchange system. If both are used the same way (without storage), I'd wager that wood consumption differences would be negligible. I'd go out on a limb and say that I think the E-Classic would use slightly less because of the control system it employs.

The point that I'd like to make to the OP is that the E-Classic is just as efficient as your Tarm when it comes to converting wood gas into heat. Your system should, however, be able to transfer more Btu's to your home because of the storage system that you employ and the fact that you have much, much less idle time. Once again, though, I'd wager that amount would be difficult to measure.

Lastly, if you choose to ignore CB's efficiency numbers, shouldn't you also refuse to quote their numbers pertaining to oil/wood comparisons?

It is not my intention to start a peeing competition here either. My sole intention is to make the OP aware that thermodynamic laws do not apply more to a European styled gasser than they do to a gasifying OWB.

stee6043, two very good posts! I've owned 3 Pinto's in the past. Two mid 70's wagons (one was a crusin' wagon!), and a Brand new '79 3 door I bought when I was a senior in high school.

 

[flyingcow]

Lastly, if you choose to ignore CB's efficiency numbers, shouldn't you also refuse to quote their numbers pertaining to oil/wood comparisons?

The numbers that was given to me from the CB salesman, were his own experience. Not CB's "effiency" numbers that they post in the misleading ad's. Plus my neighbor and good friend has the same real experience. My gasser out performs the the E-classic. 100 gals vs 150/175 gals per cord. You can make all kinds of nonsense in a long running thread. You were taken to the cleaners a while ago on this site defending CB's numbers. I am done with this marty.


stee, you make a good point that i somewhat agree with. I understand the idea of blocking wood up big. Less time splitting. I own 50 acres not worried about smoking out the neighbors. But whether I buy the wood or I have to process it myself I want to use less. But I think an E-Classic burning wide open will still not perform as well as a decent gasser. Has nothing to do with storage, or heat load. My question is...why the big azzed firebox? If it will perform as well as Erou type gasser's, why does Econoburn OWB have a smaller firebox? The cost of an E-Classic is as much, if not more than a gasser with storage. My 2 cents.

And to dspoon......my apologies. You are looking for information, and we got a bit derailed....

As a note, I drive truck for a living. I am not a heating guy. But some day.............who knows.

 

[martyinmi]

Lastly, if you choose to ignore CB's efficiency numbers, shouldn't you also refuse to quote their numbers pertaining to oil/wood comparisons?
You were taken to the cleaners a while ago on this site defending CB's numbers. I am done with this marty.

I have never been "taken to the cleaners" while "defending CB's numbers". Do some digging my friend. You'll find no such defense, especially from this P&M owner! I have, in the past, staunchly defended gasifying OWB's, especially when an indoor unit wouldn't be a viable option.

And.....The title of this thread is "CAN"T DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER". Of the two choices available in the thread title, you apparently chose....... neither?

You ARE trying to sell your style (and maybe brand?) of boiler. I'm simply trying to sell responsible wood gasification, be it from an indoor unit or an outdoor unit.

Do you realize just how incredibly ridiculous it sounds when you claim your gasser is up to 75% more efficient that an E-classic?

 

[hobbyheater]

....As a note, I drive truck for a living. I am not a heating guy. But some day.............who knows.

Full derailment in effect. Drove truck for a few years also Water cooled brakes, limiting valve for steering axle , lots of Fun .

 

[flyingcow]

Buddies of mine haul off road. They usually gross 250k on 6 axles. The right kinda wood can push 280k.

 

[stee6043]

The only way this thread could get more off track would be to start posting pictures of scantily clad women. But it's pure entertainment with a dash of enlightenment tossed in regardless. Highly enjoyable as far as I can tell.

 

[dspoon19]

Not a problem, I enjoy all the different POV's and experiences and knowledge everyone that has to offer. Like Jack Nicholson said in batman "you cant make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".

 

[hobbyheater]

The only way this thread could get more off track would be to start posting pictures of scantily clad women. .

This is the best that I can Do!
I'm recovering from laser Prostate surgery , so my bride of 42 years ( known as Woodwidow on another forum) cleaned the boiler and chimney for me on the weekend!

 

[bpirger]

Hobby....I hope you are feeling great and healing even better! And what a trooper to do the work for you!

I live in the middle of 44 acres of woods with my nearest neighbor over 0.5 mile away. I installed a Garn. We love it. I don't think there's anything better for radiant heat, becuase I can use low temp water very well. One fire a day. Takes 5 minutes tops. I don't need to split to the size of the typical "euro gasser"....but I do tend to split everything over 3" at least once anyways. I leave things bigger than my wife (yeah srnhe will run the splitter sometimes). No mess inside...no oil in 4 years. None.

For me it was about simplicity....can't be a more simple machine than the Garn. Hopefully it will last forever.

I'd rather not burn twice the wood and have twice the work......I'd rather not smell the smoke from my own stack like I suspect I would from an OWB.

My wood comes from my lot....so while it is "free", it isn't really free. I'm hoping to buy a 562XP soon....I have a winch on the 3pt behind the tractor....it isn't free. But I DO enjoy it....

I haven't heard of too many OWB lasting very long....most I have seen seem to go away in 5-7 years. Nothing worse than driving by one turning on when there's something of an inversion layer in the valley....

My little brother died in a house fire in 1976, gas pilot light ignited gasoline spilled in the basement....so for me, there's no boiler in the garage.

Everyone has there own reasons/drivers for their choices....you really have to wrestle with it yourself and arrive upon your own conclusions. There really is a "smoking gun" answer....though there is a smoking stack!

Without storage, you'll likely idle often in anything with your modest heat load....which leads to problems with all wood burners without storage. That's another whole line of thought for ya, storage or not, etc.

It adds up, it reaches deep in your pocket during install time, but you get what you pay for......Enjoy the journey....it should be enjoyable....especially if you are doing it all yourself.

It's 3F outside, I'm sitting in shorts, the floor is 82 (radiant), the temp is 74, the Garn is outside winding down, everyone else is asleep in bed, LeBron just hit a killer 3 to beat the Warriors at the buzzer.....and I don't have to start a fire until tomorrow evening... Life is great, save Lebron. Go Spurs!

 

[hobbyheater]

I live in the middle of 44 acres of woods with my nearest neighbor over 0.5 mile away. I installed a Garn. We love it. I don't think there's anything better for radiant heat, becuase I can use low temp water very well. One fire a day. Takes 5 minutes tops. I don't need to split to the size of the typical "euro gasser"....but I do tend to split everything over 3" at least once anyways. I leave things bigger than my wife (yeah srnhe will run the splitter sometimes). No mess inside...no oil in 4 years. None.

For me it was about simplicity....can't be a more simple machine than the Garn.!

Sad the lose of your brother !

We come from the dark side of heating a home with a wood boiler ,the time before gassification and storage were heard of ! When we learned of the Jetstream early 80's it did not take very long to make the change. The Jetstream arrived on the seen about 3 years before the Garn , had the Garn been available it would have been our choice!

dspoon 19
This is a you tube link to a video on the Garn . Its an expensive system that not all can afford but I thought you might enjoy seeing the concept .

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[Fred61]

One point not considered by most is the aging of the owner/operator. Looking at a cord of wood from inside a 70 year old body is much different than what a 40 year old sees. I'm in my 70s and in my younger years if I was faced with putting up 12 cords of wood I would jump for my tools and head for the woods. Now things are different. Three cords are as much as I want to handle.

It bugs me to read articles every day written by 30 somethins about when a person should retire . They say we should keep working 'til 70. I say don't tell me thatI should work 'till 70 unless you are writing yoiur piece from inside a 7o year old body.