CANT DECIDE BETWEEN REGULAR OWB OR OUTDOOR WOOD GASSER

[henfruit]

Went to see a potential customer today. He is burn a free heat machine seven years old. He is tired of burning 22 cord a year. I asked about the pex he has in the ground, he said he gets minimal snow melt! Time for some new in ground and a new boiler.

 

[Buzz Saw]

So at best would save 7 cords a year.

dspoon,if you saved 7 cords a year that would be 70 cords in 10 years. How much extra time would you gain back not handling 70 cords of wood? Time =money or wood cutting time= less hunting fishing time. Maybe that is a factor to consider.

 

[arbutus]

I was where you were with cost. Putting an indoor boiler outdoors in an 8 x 12 shed, enough room for the boiler and a cord of wood, with the ability to add a lean to for additional wood storage later on. Put it near the back door or garage door, close but still out of the house. Indoor gasification boiler -Eko, Attack, Biomass, etc - (apparently good units with several users here) $4-6k, + $1500 in a good shed seems like it's comparable to your traditional OWB cost. Figure additional money for underground piping, pump, wiring, etc being equal for both scenarios.

The question is wood quality and quantity.

 

[Buzz Saw]

My thoughts on burning indoors; you have to get the wood indoors somehow. This means trekking the wood through the house into the basement or installing a wood shoot. One costs money the other costs a lot of time. Or you leave the wood outside close and go outside and get it, but I think this defeats the point of having an indoor system. You will bring bugs, spider, fleas, ticks, and at some point you will bring in a few mice. That's just part of bringing wood indoors. I am not 100% sure on this but at some point your indoor furnace will probably have a back draft and smoke will come in the house for a second. I like the smell of a fire burning but I like it when I want to smell it not when I am required to smell it. Burning indoors your going to suck all moisture out of the air so you will have to keep a humidifier running to keep the house from drying up. I can attribute many bloody noses to this cause when we first started burning we didn't have money for a humidifier. You will have to go through the house with a bucket of hot ashes at some point. There's also the risk of a fire hazard. Plus I don't want my basement taken up with wood and a boiler room to contain the mess.

I totally agree. However for me burning less wood the better. My wood is "free" as well. I just have to fuel up the tractors,splitter, saws, UTV after I have driven to the farm with my truck and trailer. Right now I'm lucky that I cut wood with my dad and uncle for now, but they are getting old. Dad is 67 and uncle Donnie is 63. In 10 years they don't be much help so I'll be on my own. I'm going to try and process as much wood in the future as now BUT what I don't need is going to heat my parent's house and maybe my uncles place too. The less wood I need to burn keeps that much more money in my parents' pockets.

Plus once I move to the farm I'm going to be building a workshop, so why not put the everything indoors. If you have no ambition for an outbuilding I can see why you lean towards a normal OWB. I also want to heat the workshop so I'm sure my heat loads will be higher than yours so if I can stretch a chunk of wood a little further that makes sense to me.

 

[Buzz Saw]

Oh another thing to consider is what would be the price difference per year over the life of the OWB vs INB in an insulated shed? If you got 15 more years of service with an IWB would that be financially beneficial?

So if OWB project cost $10,000 and lasted 10 years = $1,000 a year

IWB project cost $15,000 and lasted 25 years = $600 a year.

**These number are just round numbers I used for an example**

 

[Buzz Saw]

FWIW Just found out Wolff Brothers is an Econoburn dealer. There is a branch in Medina.

Check it out. No idea about pricing.
http://www.wolffbros.com/cgi-bin/la...TURL)=ECONOBURN_INDOOR_WOOD-FIRED_BOILERS_EBW

 

[skfire]

FACTS FOR "CHEWAGE"

1.UG PIPING(DONE RIGHT) + HX + CHEMS(ANNUALLY)+ SHED(+ADDED ANNUAL
TAXES IF APPLICABLE) = BIG $$$$

2. 7 OR MORE CORDS TO PROCESS...EVERY YEAR FOR THE LIFE OF THE OWB(6-10
YRS WITH SERIOUS MAINTENANCE SINCE NO STORAGE, ESPECIALLY A NON
GASSER OWB)...

3.FIGURE IN PRICES FOR NEW DOORS, CHIMNEYS, GRATES EVERY COUPLE OF
YEARS..

4. & WORST CASE SCENARIO...IN 6 YEARS...KAPUT...THEN HERE WE GO AGAIN
ANOTHER 7Gs(INFLATION TO 8or9) FOR A NEW ONE...

SEEMS MONEY DOES GROW ON TREES!!

WAS NOT WORTH IT TO ME.
PLENTY OF DOCUMENTATION IN THIS FORUM OF RESEARCH AND EXPERIENCES WITH BOTH.

SK

 

[dspoon19]

dspoon,if you saved 7 cords a year that would be 70 cords in 10 years. How much extra time would you gain back not handling 70 cords of wood? Time =money or wood cutting time= less hunting fishing time. Maybe that is a factor to consider.

Yes it does add up over time. I would save about 150 hours of time over 10 years.

 

[maple1]

I don't know about others, but 2.1 hours per cord of wood does not compute at all with my experience in getting a cord of wood ready to burn. I think 70 cords would come out to something closer to 700 hours than 150.

I'm out - again.....

 

[dspoon19]

I don't know about others, but 2.1 hours per cord of wood does not compute at all with my experience in getting a cord of wood ready to burn. I think 70 cords would come out to something closer to 700 hours than 150.

I'm out - again.....

your right...I was off. im averaging a half cord per 2 hours. so 300 hours of savings.

 

[dspoon19]

Does anyone know where I could find up to date info on particulate emissions for newer standard OWB's?

dspoon19,

Seems to me price point is a big deciding factor in your system build, or is there another factor I missed? If that is the case have you check out this site? (broken link removed)


(broken link removed) looks to be the cheapest unit at about $6,200 and prices go up from there. If you bought water storage tanks(propane tanks) at $1,000 the price would be very similar to



I don't want you to think I'm trying to spend your money for you, but I'm vicariously living through your project since you are going to be finished before I even get started. What do you think?

Havent read the fine print on the lifetime warranty but that might sway my decision if its a better warranty. I like the P&M designs, I like that they are both outdoors, now the question is which one. If I think for a second the gasser makes more sense but for some reason the bl28-40 seems like a good idea. I really need to take a closer look at my heating usage numbers and use that to help make the final decision. I got the particulate information for the gasser but cant find any info on the bl28-40. I'm not saying ive been talked into a gasser yet but I am taking a closer look at it.
SpecificationsULTIMIZER BL28-40
SpecificationsOptimizer 250 Wood Gasification Unit
Maximum Furnace Output (BTU/hour)225,000Maximum Furnace Output (BTU/hour)Up to 190,000
Heating Area (sq. ft.)4,000 plusHeating Area (sq. ft.)5,000
Size Total W x D x H44” x 62” x 77”Size Total W x D x H47" X 66" X 81"
Shipping Weight (lbs)2,300Shipping Weight (lbs)3,030 lbs
Chimney Size6”Chimney Size6”
Door Size W x H19” x 15”Door Size W x H18” x 20”
Fire Chamber W x H x L28” x 35” x 40”Fire Chamber W x H x L / Cubic Feet28” x 30” x 30” / 11
Surround Fire Brick Height12”Water Capacity (US gallons)240
Water Capacity (US gallons)*90Horizontal Fire Tubes20 (1.5" diameter)
Horizontal Flat Tube Heat Exchanger6” x 10” x 7’ ***Vertical Fire Tubes6 (2" diameter)
Heat ExchangerMulti-Pass Reverse TurnMaximum Log Length26"
Maximum Log Length40”Split or suggested Log diameter4"to 6"
Split Wood or Suggested Log DiameterWill burn wood as large as you want to handle**Power Draft MotorPositive Pressure
Electrical Requirement120 VoltElectrical Requirement120 Volt
Power Draft MotorYesHeat ExchangerTriple Pass
Limited Warranty20 Year Limited WarrantyLifetime
$7,900 $11,500

 

[martyinmi]

dspoon19,
Whether you buy an indoor unit or an outdoor unit, make sure it is a gasifier. Period.
You'll be doing yourself a favor by not having so much work.
You'll be doing your neighbors a favor by not choking them out.
Almost 7 pages. I'm exhausted!

BTW, BUY A GASSER

Gassers=Good

Conventional=Bad

 

[2sons]

First link is epa rated outdoor gassers. The second is an older article (also good for insomniacs); might be able to glean some info from it while wadding through the government speak.

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html)

http://woodheat.org/attachments/article/NYSOBreport.pdf

 

[Vizsla]

Thanks for laying this out there! I was hoping someone could break down the "total cost" of a gasser system. Now I would like to see a comparable regular OWB system broke down. Is all the ancillary equipment really 4K? I was just quoted a Hawken OWB for 6300 and the dealer said total would be around 8500 with all fittings, pumps, piping, etc. I know the good pex is expensive but besides that its just ball valves, a taco recirc. pump, filter, HX'er and misc. copper fittings. I don't see how all those things could all add up to $2200 for me. I am an engineer and have been designing industrial glass melting furnaces for years and I know the cost of the equipment that goes with the actual furnace is expensive but no where near the actual tank cost! Thanks though for sharing your experiences!

An engineer and your having trouble understanding a simple material take off and cost differences. Something doesn't sound right, cause your asking to be spoon fed a lot of easily access able information. Usually engineers have this all figured out and then ask questions. I'm not convinced your an engineer at all, especially when saving 7 cord seems insignificant. Or cost analysis over life of boiler, that alone would make the decision pretty easy. Especially when 95% of OWB will be out of biz shortly after clean burning standards go into effect. I'm sure several will reopen under whatever name seems catchy. But what warranty coverage there might be now, won't be there for future support.

There's no such thing as buying a cheaper OWB system when looking beyond initial cost. I would love to see a $2200 install package. I can hear the trees shivering

 

[heaterman]

Sad to say but there are no valid comparisons to be drawn from the total FAIL that was the EPA emissions tests of 2-3 years ago. The test method was so badly flawed that the numbers generated are regarded as nearly worthless by the honest engineers in the industry.
I mean.........who uses square sawn, 4x4" kiln dried red oak, cribbed and nailed together in a stack in the firebox? Most guys I know using an OWB consider wood to be seasoned if they cut it in July and start burning in October.

I had to opportunity to work a little bit with a guy from the DEQ air quality division from Michigan a few years ago. He and I corresponded a bit about the testing itself and their findings. That test was actual real world measurements of how a typical OWB performs. His name was Brian Brady and I've lost track of him because he doesn't work in the same capacity anymore.
He was involved in research some of the northern tier Midwestern states were doing to determine the extent of particulate emissions and efficiency of 7 different brands of boilers. They called them an OWHH (outdoor woodfired hydronic heater) because technically speaking they are not boilers. To my knowledge this study was not published due to some constraints imposed by funding of the project.

They set up monitoring stations around some OWB's at varying distances to measure how much particulate matter was in the air plume downwind of these units. They found even at distances of 1/2 mile away from the unit there were still enough particulates in the air to have an effect on people the same as the smog in Los Angeles.
At distances under a couple hundred yards the particulate levels were about equivalent to what a person doing a pack a day would put in their lungs.

When they tested for efficiency, using properly seasoned wood, they found that the average of the 7 models tested was in the 33-34% range with the worst one coming in at 28% and the best only hitting 41% if I recall correctly. So basically a person using a traditional OWB is doing twice as much work as a person using an indoor gasification unit. He's also putting hazardous levels of fine particulates (the size that get waaaay down into your lungs) into the air right in his own personal environment.
From what I have seen, most of the newer units that feature (supposedly) gasification type burns, are only marginally better.

 

[dspoon19]

An engineer and your having trouble understanding a simple material take off and cost differences. Something doesn't sound right, cause your asking to be spoon fed a lot of easily access able information. Usually engineers have this all figured out and then ask questions. I'm not convinced your an engineer at all, especially when saving 7 cord seems insignificant. Or cost analysis over life of boiler, that alone would make the decision pretty easy. Especially when 95% of OWB will be out of biz shortly after clean burning standards go into effect. I'm sure several will reopen under whatever name seems catchy. But what warranty coverage there might be now, won't be there for future support.

There's no such thing as buying a cheaper OWB system when looking beyond initial cost. I would love to see a $2200 install package. I can hear the trees shivering

I ran the numbers long ago. It is cheaper to go with an OWB period. I would save on wood processing and particulate emissions. With the small heat load I have wood processing savings do not justify the cost for me. As someone mentioned earlier, a pellet stove might be the way to go for me. Now that we have been getting into particulate emissions I am more interested. I still don't think the gasser (for me) is worth it but I am taking a second hard look at them now.

 

[hobbyheater]

The PDF pages are from the Jetstream manual on the principles of clean burning and the benefits from using storage. Please read!

No offense meant to be made by what I'm going to say, but I'm trying to draw a comparison or illustration. You have seen how your parents blind-fully burned wood indoors with the mess associated with it. You are about to do the same thing, only outdoors.
I have stated previously stated that we burned wood in two pre-gasification boilers and lived with the associated problems because there was nothing better to be had in that time period. For 30 plus years, we have used gasification with storage and fully understand the benefits.
Everyone who has posted in this thread is only trying to steer you in the right direction!
For your parents for their time, there was no better way. Now there is a better and more responsible way, but it is not by making an even bigger mess outside.
I myself and many on this forum enjoy the freedom of being able to heat our homes with wood and do so in a responsible way.

 

[dspoon19]

The PDF pages are from the Jetstream manual on the principles of clean burning and the benefits from using storage. Please read!

No offense meant to be made by what I'm going to say, but I'm trying to draw a comparison or illustration. You have seen how your parents blind-fully burned wood indoors with the mess associated with it. You are about to do the same thing, only outdoors.
I have stated previously stated that we burned wood in two pre-gasification boilers and lived with the associated problems because there was nothing better to be had in that time period. For 30 plus years, we have used gasification with storage and fully understand the benefits.
Everyone who has posted in this thread is only trying to steer you in the right direction!
For your parents for their time, there was no better way. Now there is a better and more responsible way, but it is not by making an even bigger mess outside.
I myself and many on this forum enjoy the freedom of being able to heat our homes with wood and do so in a responsible way.

No offense taken at all. I have tried for years to talk my parents out of their indoor wood burning insert. They heat about 1800 sq ft and run through 5-5.5 cords per year. House stays around 70-72 degrees. We have no good way of getting wood into the house except going through the living room to the fireplace. Ash drawer was emptied with sometimes still glowing coals in it. This had to be taken back through the living room to go outside. There are still small burn holes in the carpet where one would pop on the way to the door. So you can see why I am slightly paranoid about wanting everything outside.

I think gasification with storage is great use of the energy. At this point I don't have the money or a good place to put storage. I know the extra up front cost of the gasser with storage and everything is best for the long run in wood savings and environmental issues. Its just hard to stomach the up front hit. Can I draw a fair comparison to a gasser with storage like a standard hot water tank, and a gasser without storage to a instant hot water (tank less) system?

 

[skfire]

No offense taken at all. I have tried for years to talk my parents out of their indoor wood burning insert. They heat about 1800 sq ft and run through 5-5.5 cords per year. House stays around 70-72 degrees. We have no good way of getting wood into the house except going through the living room to the fireplace. Ash drawer was emptied with sometimes still glowing coals in it. This had to be taken back through the living room to go outside. There are still small burn holes in the carpet where one would pop on the way to the door. So you can see why I am slightly paranoid about wanting everything outside.

I think gasification with storage is great use of the energy. At this point I don't have the money or a good place to put storage. I know the extra up front cost of the gasser with storage and everything is best for the long run in wood savings and environmental issues. Its just hard to stomach the up front hit. Can I draw a fair comparison to a gasser with storage like a standard hot water tank, and a gasser without storage to a instant hot water (tank less) system?

On your first paragraph, you are comparing apples to oranges.
Your experience with the indoors insert issues has no bearing on the indoor gasser operation(assuming decent practices). My grandfather's stove glowed red some nights, the house had a fine layer of ash come spring time..etc....most of us have been there, it does not make it same today.

On your second paragraph, I think a closer investigation of values and total expenses is warranted prior to making assumptions on final costs. As to the final question, no.

I think you need to break every single cost down, add them up and then do same for pros vs cons involved but not based on your assumptions, but rather the hard data you will easily find in this forum, not too mention this thread alone...like marty said..7 pages...and I assure you there are about 1500 hundred more on this topic(that is how I joined),,,,,dig

Me out.(Maple 1 like)

Good luck

Scott

ps: I as well started like you, same criteria....and thanks to the great folks in here, I quickly immersed myself into the particulars and did a complete 180..but it took a serious amount of researching and analysis. If you are an eng, this should be cake and even easier to come to an educated decision.

 

[hobbyheater]

t. Can I draw a fair comparison to a gasser with storage like a standard hot water tank, and a gasser without storage to a instant hot water (tank less) system?

The comparison you are trying to draw does not make sense to me!
Real life experiments.
1 Our oil boiler backup with DHW, a demand unit that held 2 1/2 gallons, would use 3 gallons per day or 21 gallons per week in standby mode. When connected to storage, that figure dropped to 9 gallons per week.
2 When we wanted to switch to a electric demand boiler for backup, none of the local suppliers could tell us what KW capacity would be required even though we knew our daily load. So I bought two 40 gallon hot water tanks; quality Tanks with good insulation. They almost could do the job of heating the house but could not supply the water hot enough to be truly successful. But what was discovered in the milder months with low load draw, the electric hot water tanks were more economical to operate as opposed to the electric demand boiler. Hard to understand but a fact.
The electric boiler does not heat the storage at this time. If we ever get lower off peak rates, I will hook the electric boiler up to the storage tank.

 

[flyingcow]

Don't get hung up on that a gasser needs storage. Build
s small out building. Plus a shed to store wood in. You'll need that shed even if you do a owb. Shed plus an eko will be very comparable in price. Or buy the econoburn owb. That's a true gasser. But as heater man pointed out they out their own shell around it. Storage helps a little bit with effiency but its more for convience. If cost is your concern go pick a used smoke dragon on Craig's list. Best way t keep costs down and see how it goes.

 

[flyingcow]

But for god sakes don't cheap out on the underground piping!


I still think an air sourced HP is something for you to look at.

 

[Countryboy1966]

HI folks long time no post, but I wanted to chime in. I purchased an old indoor 140K btu fire king and the gas shed for $200 on craigslist in 2007. I used that unit and another $1700 in materials to heat my house until 2013/14 year when I moved into my new property. My tenant uses that boiler and enjoys its use.

It burns about 10-12 cords a year, but works very well IMO. There are areas in which it needs to be improved upon but we are addressing them as we go on.

I'm reading how OWB's last 7-8 years for some and I have to be honest that this unit from 1979 works just fine. I think the necessity is that you have to have a sense of mechanical aptitude to get the true value out of them. I don't understand why some units only last 8 years. Metal doesn't disappear. I weld and work on mine all the time, but the cost of the unit and a couple extra cord of wood was an opportunity cost I was willing to pay to forgo an expensive unit.

My new house has a wood furnace in it. I've burned 5 cords of wood so far this year so this has me wondering. I think the advantage of having the unit inside the house has been a benefit. Problem now is the garage is detached and I have a machine shop that needs to be heated. New plan is to put a boiler system in the garage and send a line to the house for an A coil. We shall see what next year brings.

All I can say is sometimes a cheap unit is beneficial to learn from such as I did. Since 2007, I have not paid a cent for fuel oil and the fact that I'm still a fat ass tells me I'm not having to cut too much wood.

 

[Vizsla]

First link is epa rated outdoor gassers. The second is an older article (also good for insomniacs); might be able to glean some info from it while wadding through the government speak.

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html)

http://woodheat.org/attachments/article/NYSOBreport.pdf

I ran the numbers long ago. It is cheaper to go with an OWB period. I would save on wood processing and particulate emissions.

I know the extra up front cost of the gasser with storage and everything is best for the long run in wood savings and environmental issues. Its just hard to stomach the up front hit.

Nope not an engineer, I don't think they get this easily confused and contradict themselves. Using figures calculated long ago? And all those reasons for not wanting an indoor unit, are almost word for word out of a OWB sales training binder. Hmmmm.... Best gasser OWB overall thermal efficiency 30's% and who knows what will be lost to underground lines. Even a single degree is a few million BTU's over a heating season. Versus many other well proven and documented other options. Indoor or outdoor.....it's OK many cannot see past the initial cheap price. And their counting on it. Good luck either way

 

[Fred61]

I'll sit the rest of this one out in the peanut gallery with SKFIRE