Bolt No ICE

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I would love to buy one for my wife. She drives round trip 120 miles a day to work round trip. I am not convinced the range is available yet for her. She likes it cold in the summer and hot in the winter (heated seats as well) with radio with some winter months with full lights in use coming and going. It would have to charge in 8 hours. Taking into account battery degradation over time I don't yet see it as a reality.

On a side note I did see a EV with a Honda 2k generator running in a parking lot plugged in. I guess that is one way to tackle longevity on a commute.
 
How long would it take fully to recharge at a child’s house if you were limited to 120V?
A long time. About 4 miles per hour of charge, or about 60 hours for a full 60kw charge for a completely depleted battery. The 240V-16A Level 2 charger that I bought for travel to the homes of our children will deliver a full charge in the same situation in about 15-18 hours. I don't believe it would be typical to run the battery down to 0, so as a practical matter charge time to full would be less to much less and would be to top off the battery. Chevy says a 240V-32A Level 2 charger will take about 9.5 hours in the same situation.

As to temperature comfort, I am somewhat amused when I see comments that car cabin temp in the low 60's is objectionable. I suppose that's understandable if a person lives in a moderate or warm winter climate. But if a person lives in a cold climate, like northern MN in winter, having cabin temp in the 60's is pretty common and quite comfortable. Our house typically is in the low 60's, even the high 50's, many mornings in winter. The wood stove has burned out overnight and the house cools down. So some heavy socks, a sweater or better yet a down vest, and flannel pj's underneath, all make for a warm wake-up where I live. Add a hot cup of coffee to that. So having the car in the low 60's is pretty normal temperature.

Chevy advice is to not use a generator to charge a Bolt. I'm guessing that dirty power from a portable generator would be the cause for the advice. Don't know the actual impact on the charging system. Maybe an inverter pure sine wave generator would remove the objection. A 2000W sine wave inverter generator, at 4 miles per hour of charging, might be all that is needed in a pinch. Yet, carrying a generator is a lot of weight to be hauling around that likely would never be needed if a little more attention was given to route, distance, and driving conditions.
 
Take a couple days off, and I miss all the action..... :eek:
.....glad you are well Jim, and enjoying Ruby.

We picked up our Bolt from the dealer the day before Thanksgiving, threw our bags in it and drove 110 miles to see family. Of course the Dealer promised to have it fully charged, and didn't. (I don't think they know how long L1 or L2 takes).

Your delivery was more eventful.

If its 185 miles, in above freezing weather at <65 mph the Bolt should make the round trip without charging, if the tires are properly inflated (that is, a few pounds above what is on the door). I keep mine at 41-42 psi for max efficiency. Even a little L2 at the destination (or 10 mins on a DCFC, or overnight L1) would prevent 'white knuckles'.

Our 210 mile trips are at 70+ mph, 4 people and a dog, and need about 15-20 mins on a DCFC in our 'winter' temps.
 
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A self-analysis tells me that with the Bolt "range anxiety" is my diagnosis, and my approach to anxiety is to find the cause, then resolve it. A 150 mile round trip in cold winter weather is my range anxiety parameter.

The first test drive proved that the Bolt could easily handle that and have plenty of miles of range left if driving was very conservative. Yesterday I did a second test drive with much less conservative driving. The resulting self-treatment greatly resolved my anxiety. With temps in even colder weather (10-22F), using the cabin heater set to 70F, using the steering wheel and the seat heaters as needed for added comfort, driving a typical mix of small towns and open highways, and with speeds mostly in the 60-65 mph range, the Bolt battery easily will handle the 150 mile round trip with 50 miles or more of range still in the battery.

Most importantly, the Bolt is a heck-of-a fun car to drive. A silent launch from a red stop light will leave almost any competitor in sight only through the rear view mirror. Maybe the next Chevy BEV will be named "Jolt."

Business opportunity: mobile DC fast charger equipped tow or service trucks to quickly breathe new life into exhausted BEVs stranded on the highway. This would pretty much eliminate any range anxiety. Might not be inexpensive, but neither is a tow truck for a vehicle breakdown.

BEV accessory or standard equipment:
1) a 14-30r or similar type receptacle on the car so that the battery could be used for 120/240V uses, especially emergency backup power for a home in the event of a power loss, or
2) ability to plug into the charging port and draw DC power from the car to an accessory inverter to provide 120/240VAC power

The Bolt's 60kw battery is equivalent to 4+ Tesla 13.2kw Powerwall 2.0 batteries. That's a lot of emergency power.
 
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The first test drive proved that the Bolt could easily handle that and have plenty of miles of range left if driving was very conservative. Yesterday I did a second test drive with much less conservative driving. The resulting self-treatment greatly resolved my anxiety. With temps in even colder weather (10-22F), using the cabin heater set to 70F, using the steering wheel and the seat heaters as needed for added comfort, driving a typical mix of small towns and open highways, and with speeds mostly in the 60-65 mph range, the Bolt battery easily will handle the 150 mile round trip with 50 miles or more of range still in the battery.

Nice. A few comments....the warm battery pack from your workshop is likely playing a small role here. The Bolt battery is not thermostated to a given setpoint, it is allowed to passively vary when parked to stay within a range, with a lower limit of about 32°F. Unplugged, it is allowed to get much colder depending on the SOC (state of charge) but will self-heat to maintain a lower setpoint and not freeze. So, if you parked the car overnight in a cold location (e.g. at a destination) the range might take a hit. This will be factored into the GOM (guess-o-meter) range. Also, a cold battery will often only DCFC at max 24 kW, doubling your FC time.

IOW, cold soaking is safe for the car, and will not strand you, but will lead to some small, annoying surprises in range and charge speed.

I usually use the seat and wheel heaters liberally and the cabin heater sparingly, as needed, as it is more efficient.

Most importantly, the Bolt is a heck-of-a fun car to drive. A silent launch from a red stop light will leave almost any competitor in sight only through the rear view mirror. Maybe the next Chevy BEV will be named "Jolt."

Agree. I find myself doing things requiring a sudden burst of speed/accel/power to change my placement in traffic (like to get away from a bothersome driver). In my ICE cars, mashing the accelerator like that would (after a slow lag) spike the RPMs, make a obvious loud engine noise surge, jolt everyone's necks with a transmission shift, and generally be unpleasant to my riders and neighbors. In the BEV I can do the same maneuver with a smooth application of acceleration (reducing 'jerk', the time derivative of acceleration), and without a surge of noise pollution in my environment. So I DO.

Business opportunity: mobile DC fast charger equipped tow or service trucks to quickly breathe new life into exhausted BEVs stranded on the highway. This would pretty much eliminate any range anxiety. Might not be inexpensive, but neither is a tow truck for a vehicle breakdown.

I do not plan to ever run out of juice, just as I never ran out of gas, or got stranded in my LEAF with a 22 kWh battery. That said, there are options. Towing the Bolt is tricky....read the manual. If you put it in Neutral, it has a tendency to switch out to Park (e.g. if you open the drivers side door). If being towed, this will engage the parking brake and burn out the brakes. Also fun at car washes if you get out of the car. So the manual says...flatbed.

Another option is to tow it with the front wheels on pavement (forward or backwards), and to ride in the car in 'L' or strong regen mode. At normal driving speeds this will charge that battery at 20-30 kW (with out stressing the system), with the drag requiring an extra 20-30 horsepower from the truck. 10 minutes of that would get you 15-20 miles of range.

BEV accessory or standard equipment:
1) a 14-30r or similar type receptacle on the car so that the battery could be used for 120/240V uses, especially emergency backup power for a home in the event of a power loss, or
2) ability to plug into the charging port and draw DC power from the car to an accessory inverter to provide 120/240VAC power

The Bolt's 60kw battery is equivalent to 4+ Tesla 13.2kw Powerwall 2.0 batteries. That's a lot of emergency power.


Not standard equipment, but you can get a12V 1500W pure sine inverter from amazon for $150, cable it up with some old, heavy-duty jumper cables, and you are good to go. When the car is 'on' the DC-DC converter powering the 12V system provides up to about 130A sustained. After conversion this (cheapo) system can deliver 120VAC at up to ~1200W continuous (higher surge) at 50% overall efficiency.

As with the towing..the trick is getting the car to stay 'on' rather than automatically switching itself to 'P' (after two hours), deactivating the DC-DC, and leading you to rapidly pull down (and likely damage) the half-size AGM 12V battery the bolt uses as a 'starter'. The 'best way' is to, from 'Drive' (1) apply the parking brake manually (2) switch to N (3) clamber over to the passenger seat and exit that car on the right (opening the driver door switches to P). It will stay in N forever this way, with the DC-DC engaged. Downside....the pedestrian alert sound is engaged in N when stopped (but not in D or P), so if the sound going annoys you, you have to (4) pull the fuse that powers it, and replace it after the blackout is over.

The LEAF was much simpler....the DC-DC (and not the alert sound) ran in P when stopped, and it would just quietly sit 'on' in P forever (with the parking brake set).
 
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How would you folks compare the Bolt's resistance cabin heater to the Leaf's heat pump heater as far as speed in warming up and effectiveness?
 
I had the cheapo LEAF with resistive heater. It was instant. the Bolt heater heats a fluid that goes to a core, and takes a bit to come up. I am a little down on HPs in cars....when you really need it (when it is super cold) then it quits and you switch to resistive anyway.
 
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For our climate a hp heater would be great and quite efficient, but I can see why GM to the approach to address a better solution for the national market.
 
If I sense correctly the operation of the Bolt heater, it works well and maintains very good temperature control. The remote start/pre-heat/condition before driving using plug-in power results in a very comfortable start for a drive. During the 3 hour second test drive with outside temp of 10-22F, the drive was very comfortable. Seat heating automatically adjusted based on the climate control settings. In other vehicles with seat heating I have frequently experienced seats too hot, and I would turn it off. Not with the Bolt. Inside temperature stability was very good with the temperature set at 70F. The day was sunny, and the Bolt solar sensor appeared to work well with the other settings to maintain consistent interior temperature.

The whole climate control system in the Bolt as described in the manual is complicated and sophisticated. It appears to be very well designed and functions to minimize kWh usage while providing a high level of comfort.
 
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Sounds similar to the Volt's system for cabin and seat heating.
 
I've often wondered why they don't heat EVs using latent heat of fusion salts that are melted as during recharging and solidify while driving to produce heat. This way only the draw of the circulation fan would use battery power.
Of course there is the added weight issue.
 
I've often wondered why they don't heat EVs using latent heat of fusion salts that are melted as during recharging and solidify while driving to produce heat. This way only the draw of the circulation fan would use battery power.
Of course there is the added weight issue.

What is the energy density per mass relative to Li-ion?
 
What is the energy density per mass relative to Li-ion?
I don't know off-hand.
I believe you're thinking about it correctly though -- purely by energy density.
It's hard to imagine that energy density of melted salt is even close to Li-ion even with a phase change.
 
Not sure about the energy density for molten salts, but the question reminded me of an article I read of a more cost effective replacement for lithium ion that is in development and being optimized.
(broken link removed to https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2017/10/09/sodium-based-batteries-cost-effective-lithium/)
but when will we see it?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywis...-before-sodium-batteries-are-worth-their-salt
 
Not sure about the energy density for molten salts, but the question reminded me of an article I read of a more cost effective replacement for lithium ion that is in development and being optimized.
(broken link removed to https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2017/10/09/sodium-based-batteries-cost-effective-lithium/)
but when will we see it?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywis...-before-sodium-batteries-are-worth-their-salt

I think the Na battery is for stationary apps. And I think the PR overstates the cost of LI.
 
Sounds like they still need to develop the anode, but it is being considered for transport and stationary use. In this 2016 article lithium was going for $20,000/ton for battery grade material on the spot market. Maybe it's down to $15,000 currently?
http://fortune.com/2016/06/06/lithium-price-tesla-metal-future/
 
I don't have a sense of how many pounds of Lithium there are in the 960 lb. Bolt battery. Just 10s of pounds?
 
The Google suggests that lithium batteries need 3-4X as much Lithium as suggested by the electrochemical reaction, or about 320g of metallic Li per kWh of capacity. For the 60 kWh Bolt battery, that works out to 40 lbs of metallic Li, or $400 worth at your (steep) $20k/ton figure.

IIRC the Cobalt is the most expensive element, with Nickel close behind. LG Chem's next generation battery (in the 2019 Bolt and LEAF) is engineered to have less Co and Ni to reduce material costs.

Most of the mass is graphite and electrolyte.
 
Thanks. That puts it more into perspective.
 
After 2-1/2 weeks with the Bolt, I'm about to change my prior expressed opinion that having an EV may result in driving less because of the need to give greater thought to range than driving with an ICE. For local driving (round trips up to about 150 miles), my range anxiety is rapidly diminishing. Even driving on snowy roads with temperatures barely above 0F and heating to a comfortable level, range generously exceeds 150 miles. I had winter tires installed, which I also had on my ICE, and the Bolt's handling and traction in heavy snow and on snow-packed roads is very good.

Also, what was mostly subconscious before became very conscious yesterday. I took a 20 mile trip and thought, why not? That drive doesn't cost anything. Consideration of the cost of driving, i.e. gasoline mostly but also oil and filter changes and vehicle service in general, is rapidly becoming a non-consideration. Even at only slightly over 3 miles/kw, which is what I'm experiencing in cold winter driving, the energy cost of driving has been reduced to a cost equivalent of a little more than $1/gal if electricity is our local rate of $0.11/kw, assuming 30 mpg with an ICE vehicle. Add to that the fact that all of the electricity to power the Bolt is coming from our solar PV, and the cost now looks to be about $0.

I know I will get over it, but at this time driving new technology is very sexy. Talking to other people about driving an all-electric car is really fun, especially when looking at the expressions on their faces. Besides this, the simple fact is that the EV works and does a very good job at doing that.
 
I have found myself driving more "for the hell of it" in my EV too. Yesterday I rather impulsively drove 30 min each way to surprise my wife by meeting her for lunch... and erased most of the range loss afterwards via the Level 2 charger at work once I got back.

Definitely https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox effect there.

The main cost to consider beyond "fuel" is the $/mile for the tires.
 
I find tire wear costs about half as much as the energy to propel the car. _g
 
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