Progress Hybrid house smoke and OAK

[avsmusic1]

Have you had a pro in your house to diagnose these issues

This is where my head goes too
There is a lot going on here it seems and may be time to get a pros opinion on site

 

[Highbeam]

Being a “pro” is not good enough. You need a guy that’s extremely good at this special problem and willing to help you. And you have to throw your preconceived notions out. Do not insult him by comparing him to some academic friend that knows about fluid dynamics.

Just some advice worth what you paid.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

We had CSIA certified professionals install the BK stove in the first place and came out to inspect it later when I had issues. They laughed at the aspect of taking any draft measurements.

I spent so much time modifying and testing the chimney in 2018 that I'm very skeptical about spending more money at the stove. The places around here will do whatever you ask them but $200 per visit.

We don't invite people in our house this year but we could look into hiring someone next year.

 

[bholler]

We had CSIA certified professionals install the BK stove in the first place and came out to inspect it later when I had issues. They laughed at the aspect of taking any draft measurements.

I spent so much time modifying and testing the chimney in 2018 that I'm very skeptical about spending more money at the stove. The places around here will do whatever you ask them but $200 per visit.

We don't invite people in our house this year but we could look into hiring someone next year.

So no one else has actually measured anything? Yes there are many csia certified guys who will have no clue how to figure this out. Actually some hvac guys may be better equipped.

And yeah to diagnose this there is no way I would come out for any less than $200. And it would probably be more. It is going to take allot of time.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

We'd be glad to find a bholler in our area. As far as I know there are none and especially none I would trust with a blank check to screw around with our stove for $200/hr.

I'm not at all convinced both of the problems I'm having are solvable unique problems to my installation. I've spoken to tons of people, including at WS and Blaze King that seem to be contradicting a lot of ideas people are throwing out here. I'm not coming with a lot of random preconceived notions from academics.

 

[bholler]

We'd be glad to find a bholler in our area. As far as I know there are none and especially none I would trust with a blank check to screw around with our stove for $200/hr.

I'm not at all convinced both of the problems I'm having are solvable unique problems to my installation. I've spoken to tons of people, including at WS and Blaze King that seem to be contradicting a lot of ideas people are throwing out here. I'm not coming with a lot of random preconceived notions from academics.

To be clear I don't bill $200/ hr. But diagnosing the problem could take 5 or 6 hours. I am not doing that for 200 either.

But really you can ask all the questions you want but no one will be able to do much without bring onsite to start a fire and check everything

 

[bholler]

What moisture content is your wood at?

Can you post pictures of everything?

How when and where are you getting your draft measuments?

 

[SpaceBus]

Buy a cheap manometer or a magnehelic gauge if you are feeling spendy. Leave it hooked up all the time, and then measure draft throughout the burn. This is what many folks with wood burning furnaces do, and these are just large jacketed stoves. You can remove the manometer or mag gauge after you figure out your issue.

We don't get any smoke smell in our house unless I do a bad job at lighting a stove. If everything is funcitoning properly we get no smoke or weird odors and my wife can smell if I get a backpuff in the kitchen while she is in the bedroom. I am asthmatic and respond very clearly to PM2.5 or VOC's, immediate wheezing and coughing. My wife has a much better sense of smell than I do.

There is something specific to your install or stoves would be made illegal by the FDA or EPA for environmental pollution. Your description of the smells sound like you are burning a third world adobe cooking fire in your house.

Based on your description of the smoke exiting the stove while you are burning, there is at least a momentary draft reduction or reversal. What are your flue temps when reloading on coals? Do you keep track of flue temp? Do you have double wall inside?

I see a lot of experience burners and admins asking many of these questions but getting few answers.

 

[wagne223]

I see a lot of experience burners and admins asking many of these questions but getting few answers

Yeah....

 

[chipsoflyin]

KISS. Start with the OAK. Maybe your reloading to early if the previous load is still offgassing. Start with the cheapest thing first.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I answered 90% of these questions in great detail 2yrs ago, that's why I didn't include more information or answer every single one down to the insulting questions that are getting asked. I wasn't looking here for general "solve my stove issue" thread. I agree bholler, it would be great to have an experienced professional on site rather than have people on the internet invent problems I'm having at my house.

I'm all for KISS, but I was looking here for someone with hands on experience with the Progress Hybrid before I waste any more time or money for what appears for a lot of chasing my tail for a magical clean air stove... Which many people I talked to outside this forum also claim does not exist. Or something impractical like I need to go move to a different house so I can cleanly use the stove.

I just have outer double wall temperatures. I didn't want to puncture another hole in my stovepipe to get that. For these smoking hot reloads the outer stovepipe wall is 250-300 degrees. Otherwise the stove is normally running around 200F outer stove wall temperature. Like I said, I'm not running large loads, up to about 1/2 the stove volume, ~ 20lbs of 3yr dried-under-cover red maple measuring <17% MC in the center of the split.

 

[SpaceBus]

I see a lot of folks outside this forum burn fresh cut trees, pile stones around their stove, use flue heat reclaimers, and burn down their houses, but I don't listen to them. There are folks on this forum that occasionally offer bad advice, but this forum is regulated by folks who have worked in the stove/hearth industry for many years.

Either you bought two stoves that defy physics, or your house is starving the fire from getting enough air. Perhaps your chimney does draft appropriately without a fire, and it could read an appropriate draft with a fire, but that pressure measurement is NOT telling you how much volume of air is going up the chimney. For every BTU generated by the stove it will need X CFM of air, and I suspect your house lets in less than X when the stove is already very hot.

If your theory about gas turbulence were true then all stove installs in all houses would have smoke seeping out of every pipe or stove joint, but that doesn't happen. I have a CO and a smoke detector near both of my stoves and they never go off. I've set off the smoke detector with burned food, but not from my woodstove.

Another way to look at this: If smoke is coming out of the intake, how is the fire getting oxygen? Certainly not from your house...

 

[bholler]

I answered 90% of these questions in great detail 2yrs ago, that's why I didn't include more information or answer every single one down to the insulting questions that are getting asked. I wasn't looking here for general "solve my stove issue" thread. I agree bholler, it would be great to have an experienced professional on site rather than have people on the internet invent problems I'm having at my house.

I'm all for KISS, but I was looking here for someone with hands on experience with the Progress Hybrid before I waste any more time or money for what appears for a lot of chasing my tail for a magical clean air stove... Which many people I talked to outside this forum also claim does not exist. Or something impractical like I need to go move to a different house so I can cleanly use the stove.

I just have outer double wall temperatures. I didn't want to puncture another hole in my stovepipe to get that. For these smoking hot reloads the outer stovepipe wall is 250-300 degrees. Otherwise the stove is normally running around 200F outer stove wall temperature. Like I said, I'm not running large loads, up to about 1/2 the stove volume, ~ 20lbs of 3yr dried-under-cover red maple measuring <17% MC in the center of the split.

I am sorry if you are insulted by my questions. But I have better things to do with my time than going back through your old posts on other threads to figure out what is going on. I have a business with paying customers to run and a family. I am here giving advice to people without compensation because I enjoy it. But I am not spending lots of time researching your situation for free I am sorry. We are trying to help but if you don't answer the questions asked of you we can't do that.

 

[wagne223]

Please don't take this as a smart alec comment.
With your current situation of:
Frustration, multiple stoves, money spent, lack of local help at a price you deem fair, draft tests, air studies and your family's sensitivity to air quality.

Maybe a solid fuel appliance is just not right for you at this time.

 

[jetsam]

How does creosote get soaked into the rope gasket? I didn't realize a modern, particularly a premium stove, would deposit liquid creosote on the gasket areas.

Actually more likely on a premium stove (though I have burned terrible, terrible wood on low in my BK and never seen liquid creosote).

Basic stoves tend to hit EPA requirements by limiting the lowest burn rate- which means you get less creosote in the firebox, because the user isn't even given the option of a low burn.

Many fancy stoves (BK in particular) give the user the option of burning real low. I have crunchy creosote in my firebox every shoulder season.

If this bothers you (though your stove does not under normal circumstances blow air backwards out of its gaskets, it's supposed to go the other way), you can avoid it by burning on medium or high. (Though if you were always going to burn on high, you might as well have got the Englander and saved some cash.)

 

[bholler]

Actually more likely on a premium stove (though I have burned terrible, terrible wood on low in my BK and never seen liquid creosote).

Basic stoves tend to hit EPA requirements by limiting the lowest burn rate- which means you get less creosote in the firebox, because the user isn't even given the option of a low burn.

Many fancy stoves (BK in particular) give the user the option of burning real low. I have crunchy creosote in my firebox every shoulder season.

If this bothers you (though your stove does not under normal circumstances blow air backwards out of its gaskets, it's supposed to go the other way), you can avoid it by burning on medium or high. (Though if you were always going to burn on high, you might as well have got the Englander and saved some cash.)

It isn't the quality of stove it is the burn tech. Secondary combustion stoves where the secondary takes place in the firebox will not do this because the box runs hotter. Cat stoves and secondary combustion stoves with a seperate combustion chamber can do it when run low.

 

[jetsam]

OP, regardless of whether it is the stoves or the venting, you're getting combustion byproducts in your house, and that's not normal.

Please make sure you have working CO detectors by the stove.

 

[SpaceBus]

Is your horizontal run pitched at all? Someone mentioned this to me in another thread and don't recall it being asked about this install or the previous one.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Is your horizontal run pitched at all? Someone mentioned this to me in another thread and don't recall it being asked about this install or the previous one.

The horizontal run is pitched very slightly, maybe 1in per 4ft.

Please don't take this as a smart alec comment.
With your current situation of:
Frustration, multiple stoves, money spent, lack of local help at a price you deem fair, draft tests, air studies and your family's sensitivity to air quality.

Maybe a solid fuel appliance is just not right for you at this time.

Yep. Thanks for your input. Would have been nice to hear that 3 years ago before we spent about $10K on woodburning stove installation and cut an 10" hole in our house. I thought these types of issues would be extremely rare and unlikely. Regardless of a lot of defending, a lot of information I've gotten back is showing the issues were never unlikely. I'm not planning to run this full time anymore, but will enjoy it as much as we can and it's great when it's running. The Blaze King Ashford was not useable, the WS PH is pretty useable, just at some handicaps.

@bholler, none of your questions have been insulting; great insightful questions. There are some that after prefacing this thread with "it is NOT a procedure issue" and I get asked and re-asked the "did you plug it in right" type questions. Some others just trying to crack jokes at me and muddy up the thread. So you can't get mad if I'm not responding to all of them. If you don't have free time or energy, please spend it elsewhere! I'm just looking for a little bit of information from Woodstock PH users to make my next decision.

The main issue #2 does not seem to be "weak draft", "dying fire", or "cat stalling". There's a chance it's related to make-up air volume somehow, but since it's perfectly tied to the stove temperature and doesn't improve with the window open it doesn't seem like it. There is great air speed through the stove and it is great at starting up with a small amount of coals. But like clockwork it hits 400F and starts emitting woody smoke fumes. The issue #1: reloading smoke it's surely draft related, if I had 50% more draft it probably would get sucked in. All the signs are showing my draft is at least average if not above average the normal install. There's zero glass staining at all for example.

By the way I'm running an Austin Air Healthmate+ Junior downstairs in the stoveroom and Austin Air Healthmate+ standard upstairs in the hallway where the fumes are most noticeable. They are doing a great job filtering out the smoke. Highly recommended products. The standard model is just running on 2. Even if you think there's zero particles of smoke in your house it could be a good idea...

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Here's the Ashford install, exact same chimney with a WS Progress Hybrid. Many "experts" I talked to claim this is one of the most common stove chimney layouts at least within a county or two of us.

 

[chipsoflyin]

From the looks of those pictures, an OAK would be a simple install. Throw a 3 ft section of double wall on the top, a pipe damper and you should be good to go.

 

[bholler]

I really have to question your draft numbers. They are way high for that height and number of elbows

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I really have to question your draft numbers. They are way high for that height and number of elbows

Ya... Possibly. If I can find someone with a lot better instrumentation it would be good to get more measurements. I'm not sure how much else I can do with a single Dwyer Mark2 and single probe.

Here's the Dwyer Mark2 just starting to build up the draft when the stove was starting (BK Ashford pictured) ~0.1in WC. The second one is just after pre-heating the flue and lighting a little bit of kindling for a couple minutes (~0.08in WC).

 

[SpaceBus]

With a small fire I'm not surprised you are getting those draft numbers, a small fire will require less make up air volume. I remember that you didn't have as many problems with small loads of small pieces of wood. When loading a full firebox on hot coals you are outpacing your house's capability of feeding the stove more air. The OAK will most likely overcome most of your issues. Looks like you have plenty of room to keep the OAK inlet lower than the door opening on your stove, so you should not have issues with the OAK becoming a chimney. Having basically the entire chimney outside probably doesn't help, but I would not be inclined to believe it is the problem in this case.

 

[Waulie]

Long time PH burner here. Here arethoughts.

Issue 1 is definitely a draft issue during relights. This will happen to me but only if I’m staring a new fire or very cold fire. Easy fix though I admit there are dangers involved if one were to get distracted but the fix for me is to leave the store door cracked until the flue warms. For me this is like one minute or less. I believe in my case, my oversize chimney is the cause. For you, it’s likely your exterior chimney.

Issue 2 does not appear to be a draft issue to me. I’m a little at a lose, but the smell you described reminds me of a stalled cat. Does his only happen when the cat is engaged? You mention STT but what is the fire state? If you ran it up to 400 without engaging the cat, would you he the smell.
I only run by stove pipe temps but I have single wall. Has the issue gotten worse? Does the cat clog often? The 50% open draft that you mentioned also makes me wonder about the cat.