Need Some Help. Neighbor (Environmental Atty) Filed Complaint

[blades]

Gas containers under $20 suck Eagle or Just Right start at apx $50 $25 up for carb compliant cheapies.
I wouldn't knock some of the older stoves there were a lot of mfg that just were not about to or able to spend big bucks on EPA testing. Even though there units were up to date tech wise, in some cases beyond. tube type burns, down draft with reburn before exhaust, some refitted with cats and heat extraction from exhaust stream after cat. There was a unit out of Minn. cat type with what only could described as a wine rack on top ( heat exchanger) with integral cleaning assembly for heat exchanger. Cat could be slid out in less than 2 minutes. At the time there was a lot of controversy on cats and the unit was way to big for my abode. I have to look at my old stove out back, tube type about the size of a NC13. MFG got out of business ( side line for them ) due to EPA testing cost. Made in the southwestern states somewhere can't remember right now.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Unfortunately, I think you are correct.

Frankly, EPA stoves appear to have developed the cult following of users needed to operate these stoves.

Ordinary people buy wood stoves for ordinary reasons in ordinary neighborhoods. Stove and firewood dealers don't tell them they they are joining a cult and need to follow the rules of the cult in order to use their stoves successfully. Some of the rules include having big mounds of wood around their homes, covered with tarps, filling their garages with wood or having with homes for their firewood constructed as out buildings.

Some join the cult and become advocates of the rituals of worship implicit in EPA rules, and others get out and sell out.

I'm sure environmentalists and the EPA consider they have a victory every time someone gets out and sells out. They will aim to get the cult members who survive with the next round of rule changes ----or the one after that.

I'm one that you are describing. Proud of it.

I'm embarrassed when I'm smoking excessively, and as I probably spend as much time outside as all my all my neighbors combined, I'm personally impacted by the smoke.

If I had an old stove, now that I know, I'd want dry wood and clear exhaust coming out of my chimney, more heat in my house.

I am also aware that I am one complaint away from being shut down, so I am very careful about it.

 

[bholler]

I've heard the no-spills work really good, but I went the other route and bought a few EZ Pour replacement spouts.

I have no knowledge of EPA stoves, how they work, burn times, maintenance, replacement parts, do they require electricity, etc...

The absolute biggest factor is, will it out-perform my Fisher stove during a 3-5 week long power outage like the 1998 ice storm?

No they don't need power to work. Some are more convective and will work much better with fans. Others are radiant just like your fisher and will work the same with no power.

As far as maintenance that varies depending upon the type of stove it is. All need gaskets every so often. My regency gasket is 10 yrs old and fine. Others need them more often. On tube stoves the only thing is the baffle it needs replaced if you break it. Again my regencies is original.

Cat stoves take a bit more they need new cats every 3 years or so.

Secondary combustion chamber stoves can require allot of maintenance

 

[SpaceBus]

I just grab a cup of coffee and say I am getting some fresh morning air. Go outside, sipping the coffee. Check the chimney. Go back in. Prevents marital comments about wood burning geekishness or insanity..... just saying.

Side note: I don't think I am fooling my wife. I think she knows exactly what I am doing. But it provides a great cover story for both of us.

My wife now understands the whole staring at the stove, checking the chimney, etc. after starting the stove when she had to run it by herself for a week.

 

[Don.S]

Yes it will. It's a stove that burns wood and wastes less heat that's it that's all.
Anyone who says the old stoves are better has obviously never used a new stove. And anyone who burns wet wood and does not care is stupid. I am happy to burn a stove that makes more heat for less wood and maybe even gives my little boy a chance to breath clean air.

 

[bholler]

Gas containers under $20 suck Eagle or Just Right start at apx $50 $25 up for carb compliant cheapies.
I wouldn't knock some of the older stoves there were a lot of mfg that just were not about to or able to spend big bucks on EPA testing. Even though there units were up to date tech wise, in some cases beyond. tube type burns, down draft with reburn before exhaust, some refitted with cats and heat extraction from exhaust stream after cat. There was a unit out of Minn. cat type with what only could described as a wine rack on top ( heat exchanger) with integral cleaning assembly for heat exchanger. Cat could be slid out in less than 2 minutes. At the time there was a lot of controversy on cats and the unit was way to big for my abode. I have to look at my old stove out back, tube type about the size of a NC13. MFG got out of business ( side line for them ) due to EPA testing cost. Made in the southwestern states somewhere can't remember right now.

Yes there were a few old ones that burnt clean. But only very few and most of them were not close to modern ones.

 

[Bad LP]

Screw your silly gas can gimmicks. Eagle Safety cans are the way to go.

Seriously, If I had some office staff telling me when it was OK to heat or cook with wood I wouldn't live there.

 

[bholler]

Screw your silly gas can gimmicks. Eagle Safety cans are the way to go.

Seriously, If I had some office staff telling me when it was OK to heat or cook with wood I wouldn't live there.

Have you ever used no spills cans? I love them.

 

[SpaceBus]

Have you ever used no spills cans? I love them.

I got a Justrite safety can with metal spout for my chainsaw and will never go back. Plastic gas cans are terrible.

 

[bholler]

I got a Justrite safety can with metal spout for my chainsaw and will never go back. Plastic gas cans are terrible.

I will have to try them

 

[SpaceBus]

It's a little steep, I'm not going to lie. However, I have spent many years dealing with cheap gas cans. I never thought I would care, at all, about gas can quality until I used a Justrite Type 1 (it has a funnel instead of a spout), and it changed my life. The Type 2 with hose is amazing, even though one gallon is kind of a somewhat annoyingly large container for filling up a saw. The way it pours is just awesome. Kind of a weird review for a gas can, and totally off topic, but I feel like this gas can is a hidden secret.

 

[bfitz3]

Unfortunately, I think you are correct.

Frankly, EPA stoves appear to have developed the cult following of users needed to operate these stoves.

Ordinary people buy wood stoves for ordinary reasons in ordinary neighborhoods. Stove and firewood dealers don't tell them they they are joining a cult and need to follow the rules of the cult in order to use their stoves successfully. Some of the rules include having big mounds of wood around their homes, covered with tarps, filling their garages with wood or having with homes for their firewood constructed as out buildings.

Some join the cult and become advocates of the rituals of worship implicit in EPA rules, and others get out and sell out.

I'm sure environmentalists and the EPA consider they have a victory every time someone gets out and sells out. They will aim to get the cult members who survive with the next round of rule changes ----or the one after that.

Auto makers installed turn signals at the gubmint’s insistence. Now, we all have to follow the cultish oppression and signal when turning or risk the wrath of The Man. What a world we live in.

 

[Bad LP]

I will have to try them

Eagle and Just Rite are basically the same thing. They don't spill, will last a lifetime, and are just a well proven industrial designed product.
I have 5 red, 5 gallon cans for gas, 2 5's in yellow for diesel, 2 red 1 gallon for raw gas and a 1 gallon in green for 2S mix.

 

[bholler]

Eagle and Just Rite are basically the same thing. They don't spill, will last a lifetime, and are just a well proven industrial designed product.
I have 5 red, 5 gallon cans for gas, 2 5's in yellow for diesel, 2 red 1 gallon for raw gas and a 1 gallon in green for 2S mix.

I am happy with my no spills cans but if they need replaced I will look into eagle or just right.

 

[Rob711]

From dicky neighbor to gas cans. I’m questioning this whole thread. OP is not new yet is not replying. I assume he knows there is a small sect of us that are truly interested in this outcome.

 

[NoobTube]

Thats a pretty trick gas can... Not sure I can really see spending the $60 on it though... Perhaps once I buy 5 gallons of race gas and spilling any would be a shame, then I'll consider... Still... Pretty cool, plus its Green and Gold. Go Green Bay !

 

[bholler]

From dicky neighbor to gas cans. I’m questioning this whole thread. OP is not new yet is not replying. I assume he knows there is a small sect of us that are truly interested in this outcome.

Which neighbor was the dicky one? His neighbor came to him and complained before filing a complaint. We don't know how badly he was smoking out his neighbor. The moral is burn dry wood and operate the stove correctly so there is no reason for anyone to complain.

 

[wooduser]

Will someone e

Which neighbor was the dicky one? His neighbor came to him and complained before filing a complaint. We don't know how badly he was smoking out his neighbor. The moral is burn dry wood and operate the stove correctly so there is no reason for anyone to complain.

I had a neighbor across the street 25 years ago who burned a wood stove and created a smelly mess. ( I was burning my stove at the time as well, so perhaps that was poetic justice!)

He was a pretty poor guy hagridden with a bunch of his recently acquired wife's no goodnik relations. Spent what money he had at the track or on lottery tickets and such.

Anyway, I wound up selling him an 80% efficient gas furnace and installing it for him. Used the one chimney flue for that, so no more wood stove.

 

[georgepds]

here in Ma. The law is pretty clear who has the authority on smoke

“Department of Environmental Protection (MassDEP) regulations limit visible smoke ("opacity") and prohibit air pollution that places people at risk, interferes with property uses, threatens natural resources, or creates nuisances, such as excessive odor and soot. “

The law is also pretty clear the board of health rules

“A city or town, through its Board of Health or other legal authority (referred to in this fact sheet as “Board of Health”), has the authority to enact “reasonable” rules and regulations to control air pollution, pursuant to Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 111, Section 31C (Section 31C). These regulations are enforceable only after they are approved by the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection (MassDEP) and printed in a newspaper published in the city or town (if there is no newspaper published in the city or town, the regulation must be posted in a public place). “

Boards of Health may enact regulations to control air pollution if the regulation serves to prevent:

1. Nuisance to members of the town;

2. Danger to the public health of the town; or

3. Detriment to public comfort and convenience in the town.

If you want to be combative, I’d say look to see if the board of health formulated their rules properly. Ask when the notice was published and get a copy. Ask to see the letter of approval from the EPA. Hey , you are just trying to inform yourself of the proper rules

Chances are, unless the town is big enough to have a solicitor, they did not follow the proper procedure.

That said , the fines are pretty stiff if you do not follow the boards rules. here is the state code




“Section 31C: Atmospheric pollution; regulation and control; publication; hearings; penalties; enforcement; jurisdiction; injunction
Section 31C. A board of health, or other legal authority constituted for such purpose by vote of the town or city council shall have jurisdiction to regulate and control atmospheric pollution, including, but not limited to, the emission of smoke, particulate matter, soot, cinders, ashes, toxic and radioactive substances, fumes, vapors, gases, industrial odors and dusts as may arise within its bounds and which constitutes a nuisance, a danger to the public health, or impair the public comfort and convenience.

Said board of health or other legal authority, subject to the approval of the department of environmental protection, in this section called the department, may from time to time adopt reasonable rules and regulations for the control of atmospheric pollution. Before the board of health or other legal authority submits such rules and regulations to the department for approval, such board or other legal authority shall hold a public hearing thereon, of which notice shall be given by publication for one day in each of two successive weeks in a newspaper published in the town, the first publication to be at least fourteen days prior to the date of the hearing, or if no newspaper is published in such town, by posting a copy of such notice in a public place therein. Said rules and regulations, when approved by the department, and after publication in a newspaper published in the town, or, if no newspaper is published in such town, after posting a copy in a public place, shall have the force of law.

The department shall advise the board or other legal authority in all matters of atmospheric pollution. The department may, upon request of the board of health or other legal authority of a town adversely affected by atmospheric pollution arising in another town, after a hearing to all parties interested, assume joint jurisdiction to regulate or control such cause of atmospheric pollution and may exercise all powers of the local board of health or other legal authority under provisions of the General Laws or any special laws.

Whoever violates any order, rule or regulation promulgated or adopted under the provisions of this section shall be punished, for the first offense, by a fine of not less than one thousand nor more than five thousand dollars and for a subsequent offense, by a fine of not less than five thousand nor more than ten thousand dollars. For the purpose of this paragraph each day or part thereof of violation of such an order, rule or regulation whether such violation be continuous or intermittent, shall be construed as a separate and succeeding offense.

Rules and regulations promulgated or adopted under the provisions of this section shall be enforced by said board of health or other legal authority either of which may delegate the power to enforce specific regulations to other agencies or departments of the same city or town. The superior court shall have jurisdiction in equity to enforce such rules and regulations and may restrain by injunction any violation thereof.”

Refs:

https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/08/su/31cguid.pdf

https://www.mass.gov/guides/heating-your-home-with-a-wood-burning-appliance

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVI/Chapter111/Section31C

~~~~~



In a related experience, back before the town put in sewer and water we all lived on shallow wells and septic tanks. My neighbor used to drain her wash tub directly into the ground, and close to my intake pipe. Every summer I had soap in my water. I talked to her, but it did no good. What I eventually did was put in a triple filter (sediment, charcoal, reverse osmosis) that cleaned up enough for drinking

I just don’t believe in running to the cops

But the equivalent would require the neighbor to close his window, does not seem that is going to happen

 

[bholler]

here in Ma. The law is pretty clear who has the authority on smoke

“Department of Environmental Protection (MassDEP) regulations limit visible smoke ("opacity") and prohibit air pollution that places people at risk, interferes with property uses, threatens natural resources, or creates nuisances, such as excessive odor and soot. “

The law is also pretty clear the board of health rules

“A city or town, through its Board of Health or other legal authority (referred to in this fact sheet as “Board of Health”), has the authority to enact “reasonable” rules and regulations to control air pollution, pursuant to Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 111, Section 31C (Section 31C). These regulations are enforceable only after they are approved by the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection (MassDEP) and printed in a newspaper published in the city or town (if there is no newspaper published in the city or town, the regulation must be posted in a public place). “

Boards of Health may enact regulations to control air pollution if the regulation serves to prevent:

1. Nuisance to members of the town;

2. Danger to the public health of the town; or

3. Detriment to public comfort and convenience in the town.

If you want to be combative, I’d say look to see if the board of health formulated their rules properly. Ask when the notice was published and get a copy. Ask to see the letter of approval from the EPA. Hey , you are just trying to inform yourself of the proper rules

Chances are, unless the town is big enough to have a solicitor, they did not follow the proper procedure.

That said , the fines are pretty stiff if you do not follow the boards rules. here is the state code




“Section 31C: Atmospheric pollution; regulation and control; publication; hearings; penalties; enforcement; jurisdiction; injunction
Section 31C. A board of health, or other legal authority constituted for such purpose by vote of the town or city council shall have jurisdiction to regulate and control atmospheric pollution, including, but not limited to, the emission of smoke, particulate matter, soot, cinders, ashes, toxic and radioactive substances, fumes, vapors, gases, industrial odors and dusts as may arise within its bounds and which constitutes a nuisance, a danger to the public health, or impair the public comfort and convenience.

Said board of health or other legal authority, subject to the approval of the department of environmental protection, in this section called the department, may from time to time adopt reasonable rules and regulations for the control of atmospheric pollution. Before the board of health or other legal authority submits such rules and regulations to the department for approval, such board or other legal authority shall hold a public hearing thereon, of which notice shall be given by publication for one day in each of two successive weeks in a newspaper published in the town, the first publication to be at least fourteen days prior to the date of the hearing, or if no newspaper is published in such town, by posting a copy of such notice in a public place therein. Said rules and regulations, when approved by the department, and after publication in a newspaper published in the town, or, if no newspaper is published in such town, after posting a copy in a public place, shall have the force of law.

The department shall advise the board or other legal authority in all matters of atmospheric pollution. The department may, upon request of the board of health or other legal authority of a town adversely affected by atmospheric pollution arising in another town, after a hearing to all parties interested, assume joint jurisdiction to regulate or control such cause of atmospheric pollution and may exercise all powers of the local board of health or other legal authority under provisions of the General Laws or any special laws.

Whoever violates any order, rule or regulation promulgated or adopted under the provisions of this section shall be punished, for the first offense, by a fine of not less than one thousand nor more than five thousand dollars and for a subsequent offense, by a fine of not less than five thousand nor more than ten thousand dollars. For the purpose of this paragraph each day or part thereof of violation of such an order, rule or regulation whether such violation be continuous or intermittent, shall be construed as a separate and succeeding offense.

Rules and regulations promulgated or adopted under the provisions of this section shall be enforced by said board of health or other legal authority either of which may delegate the power to enforce specific regulations to other agencies or departments of the same city or town. The superior court shall have jurisdiction in equity to enforce such rules and regulations and may restrain by injunction any violation thereof.”

Refs:

https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/08/su/31cguid.pdf

https://www.mass.gov/guides/heating-your-home-with-a-wood-burning-appliance

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVI/Chapter111/Section31C

~~~~~



In a related experience, back before the town put in sewer and water we all lived on shallow wells and septic tanks. My neighbor used to drain her wash tub directly into the ground, and close to my intake pipe. Every summer I had soap in my water. I talked to her, but it did no good. What I eventually did was put in a triple filter (sediment, charcoal, reverse osmosis) that cleaned up enough for drinking

I just don’t believe in running to the cops

But the equivalent would require the neighbor to close his window, does not seem that is going to happen

I am sorry but if someone was contaminating my drinking water and refused to change their habits after being informed about it I would report them. And no simply closing the window may not be enough if the smoke is bad enough. And regardless someone should be able to be outside on their property without being smoked out by their neighbor regularly.

 

[jatoxico]

I'm w/ @bholler contaminating my drinking water would have been over my line too.

 

[georgepds]

I'm w/ @bholler contaminating my drinking water would have been over my line too.

Reasonable response..

My feeling was" They'd been there for 3 generations, and I was a new kid on the block.

If there is something I can do to ease relations with a neighbor, I'll do it

Back before I became a house cat, I was a little wilder. I used to have outdoor fires that frightened my neighbor (different neighbor, but another old timer) , she never told me about it. She called the cops, who in turn called the local volunteer firefighter, George Cramer. George came by to the party in full firefighter gear, Ella was on the speakers, and said "Hi it's me, I like the music." I showed him I had water and sand to control the fire, but he said no, put it out, and I did .

I liked the introduction to authority "Hi it's me". Taught me a great deal about how to defuse a situation.

None of this helps here.. the Mass general code puts the fear of god into me.. it's pretty d**n clear as to smoke nuisance and fines

 

[jatoxico]

My feeling was" They'd been there for 3 generations, and I was a new kid on the block.

That's a tough spot. Some people don't care about being the new guy and they probably shouldn't when it comes to a situation like that. What's right is right and you are both subject to the same rules/regs as owners regardless how long you've been there but I do get what you're saying.

 

[Rob711]

Sure, I suppose I’m biased when it comes to wood smoke smell. I’ve been about 300 ft away from house, splitting wood when wife loaded stove. Idk maybe locust? Whatever it was it was foul. If that was all I burned constantly I’d be surprised if someone didn’t knock on my door. Burned that crap after midnight!
Op read as if he was aware of how stove was running. To me, new to this, a conciencious burner can get his exhaust pretty clean in a reasonable amount of time. So if neighbor rats me out to gobment because of startup/reload smoke then that neighbor is indeed a dick.
Suppose we’ll never know. Guy went to a meeting about this, never to be heard of again. I figure they found him guilty of causing smoke to exit chimney. Sentenced to bludgeoning with green firewood, only logical explanation in my book.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Based on the facts we have, if the op had changed to proper burning techniques, told his neighbor he was going to clean up his act to prevent the excessive smoke, (and actually done so), and stopped by to chat and make sure everything was ok from time to time, perhaps sent a chistmas card and a case or bottle of whatever the neighbor liked to drink, it would almost certainly ended differently. It's really simple, and really works. Try a little diplomacy, and see how much easier life is.