I didn't know this: Cat vs non-Cat

[bholler]

Of course it can be done and I agree, but I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping. Stove and house temperature regardless that can had coals for 10 hrs or more. Now is more nice and stable heat, the house staying nicer. At 10 hrs mark now I can open the air and get flames and a hot fire out of what still in there and dial it down again. Most mornings that's my routine at 5:30 AM. I don't know but for me is way better.

And I am glad that works for you in your house with your btu load. But don't claim you need to be home all day to heat with a non cat. It simply isn't true

 

[weatherguy]

I worked full time and headed with a noncat for many years as do the majority of people who heat with wood. It really isn't nearly as difficult as you guys make it out to be

Are you still burning from your basement or is this on the main floor in the new house?

 

[bholler]

Are you still burning from your basement or is this on the main floor in the new house?

The basement is a walkout with living space including 2 bedrooms in the new house. So yes I heat from the basement otherwise that space would be unuseable all winter.

 

[weatherguy]

The basement is a walkout with living space including 2 bedrooms in the new house. So yes I heat from the basement otherwise that space would be unuseable all winter.

I don't think we gain an advantage with the Princess in our climate, one of the reasons I switched to the Progress Hybrid, it suits my situation better.

 

[bholler]

I don't think we gain an advantage with the Princess in our climate, one of the reasons I switched to the Progress Hybrid, it suits my situation better.

I don't think the climate has anything to do with there are lots of people who the princess works well for here. It is all about the btu load.

 

[lsucet]

I did benefited in so many ways. Control over undesirable temperatures, more control over of what is happening in there and more, more than anything, and the more inportant part is the family feel safer operating these stoves. I have to be sometimes away for training, sometimes 2 days, sometimes a week. They have no problems using these stoves. That is the biggest advantage that I gained.

 

[bholler]

I did benefited in so many ways. Control over undesirable temperatures, more control over of what is happening in there and more, more than anything, and the more inportant part is the family feel safer operating these stoves. I have to be sometimes away for training, sometimes 2 days, sometimes a week. They have no problems using these stoves. That is the biggest advantage that I gained.

My wife never had a problem with either of my previous stoves. Again I am not saying anything bad about your stove choice. It is what works for you and that's great. But that doesn't mean that is what works for everyone.

 

[begreen]

Where do keep coming up with this 1000$ figure?

Since you’re only a part time burner you also wouldn’t need a new cat every three years. Probably every 5-6 years due to your part time burning. It’s 52 out right now, you’re probably using your furnace. Not me.

$200 every 2.5 yrs. For some that have stoves with more expensive cats it might be more. For others that burn less it might be less. Like I said, different folks have different needs. For us it make a lot more sense to use the cheaper and much cleaner heat pump than to burn wood in mild temps. For us a cat stove doesn't make sense. We burn when the stove is able to operate optimally which normally means 24/7 burning from Nov-March. That's full time burning, not nights and weekends. But this year is much warmer than normal and we are even more grateful that we put in the heat pump years ago. On sunny days solar gain heat the house too. We have no need for >12 hr burn times. Point being, different homes all across the spectrum will have differing needs and differing lifestyles. In a cold climate or in a large house one might be burning their stoves at a high setting.

PS: I started a fire from overnight coals early this morning before looking at the temp. It's now 55º at 10pm. and 74F in the living room. No heat needed, period.

 

[weatherguy]

I don't think the climate has anything to do with there are lots of people who the princess works well for here. It is all about the btu load.

That's why I asked you if it was on the main floor, if you had a King in the basement you might have different results. If I lived in the Pacific northwest I would own a blaze king, I would have a King or a Princess depending on the size of the house. We can have temps in the 50s in January and we can have then -10, a much bigger swing.

I don't think the climate has anything to do with there are lots of people who the princess works well for here. It is all about the btu load.

Sure, but I think they're tailor made for a more temperate climate. You might like yours better if it was on the main floor. I know a couple guys up here that have the King and they love it, low and slow in the milder weather and can turn it up when the frigid weather comes in.

 

[Highbeam]

$200 every 2.5 yrs. For some that have stoves with more expensive cats it might be more. For others that burn less it might be less. Like I said, different folks have different needs. For us it make a lot more sense to use the cheaper and much cleaner heat pump than to burn wood in mild temps. For us a cat stove doesn't make sense. We burn when the stove is able to operate optimally which normally means 24/7 burning from Nov-March. That's full time burning, not nights and weekends. But this year is much warmer than normal and we are even more grateful that we put in the heat pump years ago. On sunny days solar gain heat the house too. We have no need for >12 hr burn times. Point being, different homes all across the spectrum will have differing needs and differing lifestyles. In a cold climate or in a large house one might be burning their stoves at a high setting.

PS: I started a fire from overnight coals early this morning before looking at the temp. It's now 55º at 10pm. and 74F in the living room. No heat needed, period.

I might spend 200$ every 3 years for a new cat but I also save over 1 cord per year by burning a cat stove which saves me 750$ for each 200$ cat investment. I am just one data point and luckily there’s not that many of me!

Don’t you understand? I’m sure you can see the whole picture.

I’m glad your furnace works well, but if you’re going to use my numbers then it’s only fair to show my benefits as well as my costs.

 

[begreen]

I thought you were getting wood for a lot less than that. Didn't know you were buying cord wood all split. There is no argument that a cat stove is a good fit - for some people. My point is that for many others spending $200 every few years is not considered cheap. I spend less than that on my car.

PS: No furnace in the house. Just the heat pump system.

 

[Highbeam]

I thought you were getting wood for a lot less than that. Didn't know you were buying cord wood all split. There is no argument that a cat stove is a good fit - for some people. My point is that for many others spending $200 every few years is not considered cheap. I spend less than that on my car.

PS: No furnace in the house. Just the heat pump system.

But you see bg, that 200$ gets you 750$ worth of wood. I know you understand return on investment. For every 200 you spend you get 750 back! Every 3 years!

Personally I buy green logs for about $125 per cord and process it myself. That processing adds value but even if you just use the raw log prices i am saving 375$ per 200$ cat replacement. I’m still ahead by 175$ every 3 years.

I own a noncat too. Have had a few at this home. They work, they keep many homes warm for less equipment cost.

That 200$ cat replacement will be the cheapest 200$ a woodburner can spend.

Do you at least understand what I’m trying to say? We can both do math.

 

[begreen]

But you see bg, that 200$ gets you 750$ worth of wood

That may work for those burning low and slow. Most folks here with cats are reporting more similar wood consumption and burn times to non-cats when the stove is pushed for heat. It's not magic. There may be some savings, but realistically it's on the order of a few percent gained efficiency. We would gain little because in milder weather we would still be using the more efficient and cleaner heat pump. I'm not looking for an excuse to burn more, especially not with a black stove glass to look at. Well that, and our stove is paid for and will probably outlast me.

 

[Highbeam]

In my experience wood savings is much more than a few percent. 20-25%. Again, you should run a poll if you want to confirm this. From what I see, most folks on an annual basis save closer to 20%. It’s one of the reasons I upgraded.

Yes, on an annual basis, not just “when pushed for heat” which should only happen on the coldest day. To compare apples to apples, when pushed for heat my noncat eats 3.5 cf of wood every 3 hours! I need a bigger stove in the shop.

I admit that my 20-25% savings is probably best case scenario. My home’s heat load is properly matched to my cat stove so it runs where it really can be impressive.

If, for the majority of the time, you have to “push your stove” for adequate heat then maybe you need a bigger stove, better insulation, or a wood furnace!

Thanks for staying up late with me bg. All the eastern folks are in bed.

 

[edyit]

1000$ is not even enough to buy a one year supply of wood.

i would guess that depends on the area you live in, I get a mixed load of hard wood in log lengths for around 600$ i put some time and effort into it to css it but the exercise really isn't going to hurt me

Make 2 to 3 fires a day is something for retired people or if someone is at home 24/7 that can tend the stove.

I work full time, 7 days a week, burning season starts in october here and ends around may, I load the stove in the morning before i go to work, if it's really cold (0F or lower) i'll throw in a half load when i get home from work, if not i'll stir the coals and load it again before i go to bed. none of these loads require kindling or fire starters.

 

[wooduser]

Of course it can be done and I agree, but I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping. Stove and house temperature regardless that can had coals for 10 hrs or more. Now is more nice and stable heat, the house staying nicer. At 10 hrs mark now I can open the air and get flames and a hot fire out of what still in there and dial it down again. Most mornings that's my routine at 5:30 AM. I don't know but for me is way better.

If you are really concerned with nice, even temperatures, and low particulate Co2 emissions, just use a condensing gas furnace, or better yet electric heat. Both are far superior on these metrics to any wood stove on the market.

 

[wooduser]

. We would gain little because in milder weather we would still be using the more efficient and cleaner heat pump.

What my high efficiency wood burning friends ignore is that if they REALLY wanted high efficiency, low pollution, low CO2 emission heating, they would dump the wood stove in favor of electric heat.

I'm especially amused by those that don't want to be bothered by feeding the stove. The way to really do that is to turn up the gas furnace or electric heat pump.

Actually, I can expect that the government will be forcing everyone to do that as soon as they get the chance to do so. Bye, bye, wood stoves!

The real environmentalist has been turning up their noses at wood stoves for decades ----if not holding it.

By the standards of environmentalists, we are all guilty of original sin.

 

[maple1]

My point is that for many others spending $200 every few years is not considered cheap. I spend less than that on my car.

Umm, what kind of car do you have? And do you actually drive it?

 

[Woody Stover]

My average wood is soft maple, good wood ash and red oak. I do have some white oak and black locust in the wings but not enough to brag about.

You know how burning that high-octane wood kicks the heat up another notch, that's why I said it was "only Red Oak," I didn't want to fudge the numbers. If I pack in a load of BL, White Oak, Hickory or Dogwood, the stove top stays higher, longer, all through the burn including the coaling stage. I love Red Oak though; It's the majority of what's in the woods here, and it's what I mainly burn. It lights easier than the more dense woods, and also burns pretty long and coals well. All-around great wood.

My VC is (I believe 1.8) and I can easily get 12h from it (real heat).

At 1.8 cuft over 12 hours it simply can't put out that many BTUs. It is simple physics

My "real heat"...about 10 hrs. it has dropped to around 250 stove top, then I can bump up the air a bit and push the stove top back up toward 300. That's enough in low 40s/upper 20s to maintain room temp. Disclaimer: I only leave the bedroom/mudroom door open far enough to have that area at 65, main room is at 70. Obviously it would take more BTUs to keep the vaulted bedroom at 70 also...

I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping

So that's when you went to the cat. And just to make sure you got the nice, stable heat you wanted, you put in two stoves. How do you manage to load them both, and hold a full-time job?

 

[Nigel459]

Wow, so much "civilized disagreement" in this thread!

C'mon everyone, every single heating situation is different. We don't seem to argue that cat stoves CAN burn lower and slower. Also, at max outputs, no advantage. Can we not crack this nut? It all comes down to logic:

Simplest terms. Consider:
- BTU/hr need of the house. Low need = cat can be good, larger need, see next below:
- The ability for the house to "buffer" any heat added, esp. in the main living spaces. I.e., the larger the house, more buffer. Heating from the basement, more buffer. etc.
No buffer = cat may be good, esp. in shoulder seasons when lower outputs needed, or more restarts and smaller fires with tube stove.
Lots of buffer = prob anything will do.

There's my first stab at a flowchart, I bet (hope!) we can put this debate to bed someday...

Case study:

My house is low need. Small, well insulated, sealed, open etc. Stove in open living/kitchen area. I burned my BK for one year in it. Worked awesome. On low mostly. Worked so well, I took it up to the cabin (ha).

Decided to try a small noncat stove in the same small house this burning season. So far - just different. More temp swing for sure. BUT, BUT, a little LESS wood used with noncat than with cat... Why? because with the heat curve of the noncat stove, the average temp in my house is much cooler this year. I could be warmer no problem, but then I'd be opening windows and sending BTUs outside sometimes. Pros and cons. Ha!

So many different scenarios.

EDIT: forgot to add, I'll be putting a cat stove back in the house asap
If only woodstocks were readily available (to me in Canada), I think the Keystone would be a great fit.

 

[lsucet]

So that's when you went to the cat. And just to make sure you got the nice, stable heat you wanted, you put in two stoves. How do you manage to load them both, and hold a full-time job?

I always run 2 stoves at the time cause of the house lay out. Two pellet stoves, one wood one pellet, two wood stoves now. everything depend how cold is. if i can run just one on low on shoulder season the loading is every 24 hrs. I can do two load in one every 12 hrs if i want and run it harder or load each one and stay on an almost 24 hrs cycle. same amount of wood either way.

 

[aaronk25]

Ya I should probably be on a ad for blaze king. In MN where it’s cold but 1900 sq ft, including tuck under insulated garage, is heated by the princess from mid sept until mid may, so 7 months of the year. The cat stove is awesome due to low long runnning temps in the shoulder season, approximately 4 months of the season, so about 1/2.

Then the cool part is for 2 months literally it’s run at 80% and 100% and 100% fan 24/7 for one month. The great thing is it is such a versatile piece of equipment with its ability to operate on both ends of the spectrum. If I was 500
Miles north where 0f is the high, I would put a boiler in.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[lsucet]

If you are really concerned with nice, even temperatures, and low particulate Co2 emissions, just use a condensing gas furnace, or better yet electric heat. Both are far superior on these metrics to any wood stove on the market.

I know how it feels cause i have NG furnace on the other house. I used to have a LP furnace here also. I got rid of it. With what i spent on all this stoves and hardware over all this years, I was able to install a new more efficient furnace. I can afford the LP bill too with no issue. It is just the adventure that I am into it. I like it.

 

[lsucet]

I work full time, 7 days a week, burning season starts in october here and ends around may, I load the stove in the morning before i go to work, if it's really cold (0F or lower) i'll throw in a half load when i get home from work, if not i'll stir the coals and load it again before i go to bed. none of these loads require kindling or fire starters.

It is not about have coals, with a good bed of ash, coals can be bury and last days. It was about the temperature swing. I have the same stove as you and it is the one i am planning to install in the shop when finished. I do like the Madison cute little stove and works good. I replaced it with the big brother back in the day cause of a bigger firebox i was looking. For me is better than the big brother.

 

[begreen]

Umm, what kind of car do you have? And do you actually drive it?

LOL yep, a Volt but only about 8k a year. The only thing it has needed in the past 5 yrs has been a rare oil change. Brakes are like new. Tires are good. So far out of pocket has been well under $150.