1st stove: Catalytic or non-cat for burning Boxelder

[Fargo]

Unrelated to your question but you mentioned having an electric furnace. Why not get a cold climate rated heat pump? That would give you a lot of bang for your buck on cutting heating bills. 25F and above on average your bill would be cut to about a 1/3. Some of the newer ones are full output down to single digits, still saving money over your current heating. Add a smart thermostat set to use heat strips at a set temp you would be good for any temp. I think both a heat pump and stove, if high efficiency get a 30% tax credit.

I already have a heat pump. In fact, I have a pretty good electric furnace. Its made by a company named Steffes and it uses an Electric Thermal Storage system that contains ceramic bricks that hold 614,000 BTUs of energy. The system weighs around 3000 lbs. I have model 4130 (linked here) . Its a pretty high tech system designed to be used as part of an "Off Peak" heating system. It was in the house when I purchased it. The stored heat is intended to heat the house during times when the power company shuts down the power to my furnace during peak electricity hours. Then during the off peak hours my furnace 'charges' the bricks up again to full temp to store the heat for the next round. This gives me an all electric heating system that only runs when electricity is cheap.

So I don't expect a wood stove to really save me much money. Its mostly for emergency use and peace of mind in the case of an extended power loss. We lost power for 3 days last winter. That length of time has only happened once in the 10 years I've lived here. But we do get shorter power outages. So the stove provides some peach of mind knowing I'll have heat. The stove will also supplement my electric furnace. We run our furnace around 68 during the day and I'm always cold. So I'd love to burn some wood to bring up the heat on occasion without increasing electric bills. Maybe throw in a load in the morning to heat things up nice to start the day. (I work from home) Then let it slow burn all day (maybe another load at night) to supplement the furnace.

 

[farmwithjunk]

I already have a heat pump. In fact, I have a pretty good electric furnace. Its made by a company named Steffes and it uses an Electric Thermal Storage system that contains ceramic bricks that hold 614,000 BTUs of energy. The system weighs around 3000 lbs. I have model 4130 (linked here) . Its a pretty high tech system designed to be used as part of an "Off Peak" heating system. It was in the house when I purchased it. The stored heat is intended to heat the house during times when the power company shuts down the power to my furnace during peak electricity hours. Then during the off peak hours my furnace 'charges' the bricks up again to full temp to store the heat for the next round. This gives me an all electric heating system that only runs when electricity is cheap.

So I don't expect a wood stove to really save me much money. Its mostly for emergency use and peace of mind in the case of an extended power loss. We lost power for 3 days last winter. That length of time has only happened once in the 10 years I've lived here. But we do get shorter power outages. So the stove provides some peach of mind knowing I'll have heat. The stove will also supplement my electric furnace. We run our furnace around 68 during the day and I'm always cold. So I'd love to burn some wood to bring up the heat on occasion without increasing electric bills. Maybe throw in a load in the morning to heat things up nice to start the day. (I work from home) Then let it slow burn all day (maybe another load at night) to supplement the furnace.

Do you model 4130 in conjunction with a heat pump? I'm not sure if you are using the "electric furnace" and "heat pump" interchangeably or have a heat pump connected to that unit. Sounds like the 4130 is a standalone "electric furnace" that can accept a heat pump connected to it.

Your use case is like mine. Wood stove does 90% of the heating and the heat pump picks up the slack above 65F so it doesn't run much at all. I have electric baseboards for when its below 15F and the heat pump's output is diminished.

My vote is for a CAT stove. They are amazing with the air shut down but into season 3 mine is getting tired and the "10 year warranty" was denied based on a picture as it wasn't destroyed enough looking for them. So keep that in mind for future replacements (10,000-12,000 hours). Mine was $370 shipped.

 

[stoveliker]

Just to be clear, a heat pump gets you 3 BTU of heat for every BTU (convert to kWh here) in electrical energy used where as a (resistive coil) electric furnace gives you 1 BTU of heat for every BTU in electrical energy used.
Then your storage will have losses too, so your furnace (if resistive, as I suspect) will get you less heat energy out than you put electrical energy in whereas a heat pump will get you 2-4 times as much out as you put in.
That's where your electrical gain comes in.

 

[Fargo]

@farmwithjunk Yes, I have a heat pump connected to the furnace. Now mind you its just the AC compressor/heat pump. Its not a geothermal pump. So not the best of the best, but they are common and as stoveliker pointed out they do seem to gain a few additional btus. At least until temps get too cold. I don't think my heat pump runs below 10*F. There just isn't much heat left in the air at that point. But its during those coldest days that burning wood will be nice. We just came off of a week of below 0*F. We get a couple of days in the 30's today and tomorrow and then this weekend we will be around -11F again. That's the highs I'm talking about. Our evening lows are around -20*F. That's actual temps. Not 'real feel' or 'feels like' and whatever else they call it when they include wind chill and humidity. (Which really does make it feel even colder) So I think at those temps the wood stove should definely take some strain off of the furnace.

Thanks for the vote on which type of stove. I was leaning cat at first for the efficiency, then non-cat because I wanted to keep it simple and not deal with the expenses of a cat. Then I realized a few days ago, there are very few non-cat stoves that meet the 75% HHV for the 30% rebate. So the cat stove with the $2000 tax rebate starts to look really good. Until I have to start buying cats every 3-5 years. It seems like that could eat up that rebate pretty quickly with some cats. So I'm pretty much back to ignoring the rebate, and just trying to figure out what will fit my needs the best.

My latest thinking was wondering which stove is easiest to operate? If the stove becomes a continual hassle that requires constant attention, then it doesn't get used as much either. Especially since I'm currently planning on putting it in the basement where I won't be keeping a constant eye on it.

So going back to the list of which stoves I posted earlier that are locally available, what would be the recommendations for a reliable, simple to operate stove that would best meet my needs of emergency heat and supplemental heat. Cat or non-cat. (Being able to cook on stove top would be nice. The PE Alderlea has huge appeal for that. But its a secondary want) Whats the best choice from this list of local brands: Osburn, Hearthstone, Jotul, Quadrafire, Regency, Enviro, MF Fire, Kuma, and Ambiance. Oh Napeleon too, I missed that earlier.

If I could get a Pacific Energy or Blazeking, would that change the choice?

@all night moe are you ready to reveal your choice you mentioned earlier. I don't know if @begreen has seen the thread yet.

 

[stoveliker]

Regarding the tax credit,the pipe purchase is included, so you get 30% of that too ( if the stove qualifies and you're not yet at the max of $2000).

 

[EbS-P]

PE T6 and Ashford 30 are at the top of my list. As cold as you are i just don’t see the advantage of a low and slow cat.

You are likely to be running 8 hour cycles with each.

 

[all night moe]

@all night moe are you ready to reveal your choice you mentioned earlier.

No..... I'm a bit biased towards cats, although tube stoves are not bad either. It all depends on needs, and mine are far different then yours.
That's why I handed the advice over to begreen.

I will say this: for a cat stove I'd go for a Blaze King, for a tube stove I'd be ok running a Pacific Engineering. Although there are a bunch of good tube stoves. Lopi, Jotul, ......

I hope @begreen chimes in. He's always pretty good at picking out a stove for the application it's going to be run in.

 

[stoveliker]

I think that cat or no cat indeed does not determine what the best choice is if one does not run low and slow.
I do think that a BK has an advantage that is often forgotten by those not using one: the even heat regulated by the thermostat.
No heat pulse and gliding down in temp until a reload. Just set the heat output and after a while you know how many hours you can walk away until a reload is needed.

The other advantage, in particular for this being a basement stove, is that the thermostat throttles the air when a run-away migth occur.
No need to keep an eye on the stove, no stories about "2 hours in it ran away and I had to do xyz". Just set the thermostat and be done with it for a set amount of hours. It won't (!) lead to an increase in fire/hot fireboxes/overfiring (if proper fuel is used, and it's installed to mfg specs).

You can set the thermostat so that a reload is needed e.g. 12 hours from the load, if that suits your schedule, or 8 hours etc. That will provide a base level of BTUs on top of which your other system could modulate to reach the comfort level you need, in case the stove does not provide the full need for heat at that reloading schedule.

This has nothing to do with cat or no cat, but is the thermostat. It's a feature that provides safety and much convenience. (To the point that I am not married to a cat stove, but I am married to the thermostat - I'll not buy another brand of stove unless is has this same capability.)

 

[GG Woody]

If I could get a Pacific Energy or Blazeking, would that change the choice?

I have one of each, and I would definitely recommend either. They are both manufactured relatively close to me as well so maybe I have a bit of bias?

stovelikers post #33 above nailed it.

Our Blaze King is great because I load it up with Douglas Fir and leave it for 12 hours easily, I would think it would make 12 hours on nice dry boxelder as well. The BK does have a bit of black box effect, but it chugs along and pumps out heat. Fill it and forget it. No fan on ours yet, doubt I would add one even if it was free, our BK is nearly silent.

Our Pacific Energy *insert* is great *for me* to get the upstairs really toasty. In previous years it was our primary heat and it puts out a lot, but I had a hard time keeping the fire going while at work or overnight on Douglas Fir. Much more fire to watch, but a bit more fire tending to do as well if I want to keep it going. It runs probably 6hr cycles best but I can get it to do 8hrs. We will put a load through it most evenings, and it really does blow out a lot of hot (with the fan and noise that comes with the fan)

...Merely my experiences...

 

[Fargo]

...As cold as you are i just don’t see the advantage of a low and slow cat.

You are likely to be running 8 hour cycles with each.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I think for my use case, I'd like to get about a 12 hour burn time on my box elder. If I could put in a load of wood at around 9am and then again around 9pm that would provide a good burst of heat when my bricks are cooling off and energy is more expensive. I could probably make an 8 hour time work too if needed. But 12 hour rotations would sure be convenient.

I had written the above comment before I saw all the post above. It looks like you guys are on the same page as me. As @stoveliker pointed out, the thermostat would be great. I was kind of thinking in that direction already, but I didn't really have the knowledge or understanding of how it worked or all the safety benefits. If that works as well as stoveliker describes, it would be amazing. (I didn't realize a stove could run away 2 hours into a burn.) With that info, I have to agree that a thermostat is more important than whether or not the stove has a cat. So the Blazeking is probably on the top of my list for that very reason. That is if I can get it. Does anyone else offer a thermostat like that?

 

[stoveliker]

I do think there is one other brand that does or did offer a thermostat. I forgot which brand.

I do note that a 12 hour reload schedule will not likely satisfy your BTU needs in ND, i.e. the conventional heat you have will still run on top of that - but obviously less costly because having to provide less BTUs.

 

[stoveliker]

Regardless, have your wood split and stacked asap. I don't know box elder, and it may season in one year, but I can guarantee that 2 year stacked wood will be so much better that you'll never go back. (And this holds regardless of PE, BK, or another modern stove.)

 

[Geezer77]

I burn plenty of box elder. It's slightly better than silver maple BTU wise which is higher than pine or aspen. It's a little less than black ash. Burns absolutely fine in my tube stove but wouldn't be a good overnight load. Possibly enough coals in the morning to load on, but they wouldn't be producing much heat. 3-4 hours to reload in cold weather, 6 hours to reload in milder weather.

Box Elder, like most comments above, is fine and seasons quickly. It does burn fast and shouldn't make a difference in cat or non-cat. Really don't like the tree or the bugs. They are incredible in the fall, throw 'em into the stove! Run whatcha brung!

 

[snojetter]

I can offer some perspective since I'm just down the interstate from Fargo about 100 miles (near Alexandria, MN). I get all the temperature swings that you get but seem to miss the big snow storms that hammer you guys. I have an all electric house that runs off-peak. To qualify, technically my wood stove is our primary heater while we have an air-source heat pump as a back-up; the heat pump itself is backed up with a resistive coil heater that takes up the slack when the temps really drop. Our heat pump is set to run down to 17 below zero; I don't know the technical term but I think Bryant calls it an "Extreme" heat pump (ours is a Carrier, but Carrier and Bryant are owned by the same company). Anyway, the idea is I run the wood stove 24-7 with a roughly 12-hour reload schedule. The heat pump picks up whatever extra heat load may be required and the house remains a fairly constant temp. I'm very happy with this set-up and no regrets having spent the extra money on the heat pump when building the house even though I had no idea what I was getting in to (having only had experience with gas furnaces and baseboard heaters previously).

As for the stove, I run a Blaze Kind Princess and I couldn't be more pleased with the choice. I can't comment on how my stove operates relative to any other stove because I have no experience with any other modern heater. However, what I find interesting is how the Blaze Kings are always talked up (or down) with their only real advantage being the ability to run "low and slow" during the shoulder seasons. Sure, there is a big advantage when the temps are warmer and I can throttle the stove down for a 24 hour burn. And sure, there's no real wood savings in the middle of winter when the temps drop enough causing one to question why they chose this region to live in year-round. You run it high (or at least high enough to burn 8-12 hours) and then fill 'er back up just like any other stove. But I think what doesn't get epmahised enough - what I love most about the stove - is what @stoveliker mentioned above: controllability (and the resultant peace of mind). The BK has got to be the easiest stove to operate. And I won't comment that other stoves are "difficult" to run, per se. But the BK has a bypass lever and a thermostat. There is no primary or secondary air control to set. When I'm doing a hot reload, it's turn the thermostat up on high to char the wood for 5 or 10 minutes; then it's turn the thermostat down to cruise mode and walk away. I don't worry about the stove choking down or going thermonuclear. The thermostat does what it does every time - it's repeatable. Again, I don't know that other stoves are finicky, but you can't get much easier than a single rotating knob for controlling your burn. I wake up every morning or come home from work to a pretty consistent bed of coals and I start the cycle all over again. I don't know that I would have that peace of mind using a stove without a thermostat. So for me, the low-and-slow is nice, the catalyst...don't really care one way or another - it's part of the design; the thermostat? That's the ticket!

I've run my stove every winter like this since 2013; I burn ash, oak, aspen, basswood, buckthorn, hophornbeam, maple...and yes, boxelder (straight ones ) on a minimum 3 year rotation (dry wood is essential to success). I'm on my second cat and suspect the current one will serve me another 2 years at least. I have a replacement on hand in case it fails, but I don't consider the $250 replacement part to be much of a downer. I heartily recommend the BK and you do have a dealer a little east of you near Mahnomen if you decide you want to check them out. (I talked with this dealer back when I built the house, and he was very helpful and knowledgeable, but a local place became a dealer at about the same time so I ended up buying locally). I probably sound like a fan boy, but that's probably because I am.

 

[EbS-P]

I was thinking about this yesterday. I think for my use case, I'd like to get about a 12 hour burn time on my box elder. If I could put in a load of wood at around 9am and then again around 9pm that would provide a good burst of heat when my bricks are cooling off and energy is more expensive. I could probably make an 8 hour time work too if needed. But 12 hour rotations would sure be convenient.

I had written the above comment before I saw all the post above. It looks like you guys are on the same page as me. As @stoveliker pointed out, the thermostat would be great. I was kind of thinking in that direction already, but I didn't really have the knowledge or understanding of how it worked or all the safety benefits. If that works as well as stoveliker describes, it would be amazing. (I didn't realize a stove could run away 2 hours into a burn.) With that info, I have to agree that a thermostat is more important than whether or not the stove has a cat. So the Blazeking is probably on the top of my list for that very reason. That is if I can get it. Does anyone else offer a thermostat like that?

12 hours cycles in the 3 cu ft stove when it’s cold are hard.
If you wanted that you could Step up to an 8” BK king. It’s pricey to go that big and may not be an option depending on how you are venting it.

 

[NickW]

Dollars were a big thing when I put in our NC30 and liner. It was such a huge step up from the old stove; however, knowing what I know now versus what I knew then I think a BK would have been a better choice for us. It probably would have more than doubled my total cost. Replacing a catalyst every 5 years or so would be a small price to pay for the convenience and simplicity of operation.

 

[Fargo]

Thanks @snojetter. I did see the dealer up in Mahnomen, but I didn't call him yet to see if he would come down my way to do the install. I also found that Sunrooms Plus in Grand Forks carries them and I think they will come down this way. So the Blazeking looks like a real option (I also found PE at Nordic Brick in Alex as well. So that might be an option for me as well). However, I am feeling pretty sold on the thermostat as described by you and @stoveliker. Like you said, the low and slow won't really be a benefit to me, but the thermostat sounds like it really makes the stove much easier and safer to operate. I like that.

Is there any manual way to close up the air intake if the thermostat fails for some reason?

 

[stoveliker]

Just to make this abundantly clear: the 12 hr reload schedule would most likely require additional BTU input (from your electrical) to keep the home comfortable. So the wood will decrease the electric cost, not zero it out.

The thermostat is essentially a rod with a bimetal coil connected to a flapper.
The coil moves the flapper (towards open when it gets colder, towards closed when it gets warmer), but the point from where it moves is set by the knob.
Not much to fail if you don't start rotating the knob and winding up the coil until it deforms or breaks.
So as long as the knob is not disconnected from the rod (set screw), it'll work.
If it disconnects from the rod (we've seen some cases on this forum), the fix is rather easy (again, set screw), which will allow you to close the air. Fixing the knob *at the right angular position* requires instructions from BK (at least I would need them as I've never done this before).

Finally, if everything fails and things are going to a raging hell, you can simply clog the air inlet. It's a rectangular hole in the middle of the back, about 3x5" or so. I have actually made a plug for that hole. NOT to change (extend) my burning by choking the air off, but simply to avoid stinky reverse draft emptying into my basement (where the stove is) in humid summers.
If you're a nervous or (overly) safety minded person (nothing bad with either, just didn't know how to describe it without being potentially offensive), make a plug for that hole. It's big for a (rectangular) ball of alu foil, but you could, in principle, use that to stuff it.

 

[Fargo]

@stoveliker thanks for the reply. I totally understand a 12 hour reload will not be enough to heat my house. I'm looking at the wood stove as a supplemental heat source to give the furnace a warmer starting point. But I do expect it to put off some noticeable heat when I first load it. Then I could turn it down. Whether I reload for more heat or let the furnace take over from there will depend I guess. But I understand that it would take more fuel than a couple of 12 hour loads to heat the house. I do appreciate you making it abundantly clear though. It would be easy to get excited about a wood stove to think a load of wood will heat the house.

I also appreciate the clarity on the air intake and how you could make a plug. I do like the idea of a plug to keep summer back drafts out, or even winter back drafts when the stove is not in use. (Could that happen or will the chimney always draft up due to house heat?) Anyway, the plug makes sense for emergency situations as you described and that was my concern as being overly safety conscious since I've never used wood stoves before.

 

[stoveliker]

Back drafts can happen. If a column of cold air gets trapped in the flue, that could sink and enter your room thru the air inlet if the stove.

 

[snojetter]

Like you said, the low and slow won't really be a benefit to me, but the thermostat sounds like it really makes the stove much easier and safer to operate. I like that.

Actually, the low-and-slow is an absolute benefit. The shoulder seasons and the warm stretches in the middle of winter that would overheat the house or require a start/stop sort of burning schedule are much easier to manage when you can turn the stove down to a minimum. I'm still burning 24-7 in these situations so long as the temps are below 40. Because of the solar gain in our house, at temps above 40, any amount of burning almost certainly raises the house temp close to 80. The slow burn is a great feature, it's just not the one I emphasize when I talk up these stoves.

Is there any manual way to close up the air intake if the thermostat fails for some reason?

My understanding is if the thermostat fails (breaks), the flapper automatically closes off the air intake (I assume due to gravity) and essentially shuts down the stove. This feature should prevent any run-away situation from starting so blocking off the air intake isn't required. I think you'd have to really try to work the stove outside of it's design to get into trouble...but if you do, yes blocking off the air intake is simple enough.

Regarding the stove reload schedule, 12-hours is an ideal target to hit if it works for you. And for me, most of the time (sane winter weather) it does work well. But you know as well as I that this weekend has been outside of the norm. While I was home Sunday, I cranked the stove up higher to something more like an 8-hour reload. But since I didn't want to be up super late or in the middle of the night to reload, I did a hot partial reload part way through the day with some pine to keep the cycle running longer as well as burn down the coal bed I had. That kept the temps up until my normal reload later in the evening at which point I set the stove for an overnight burn. The back-up heat did what it's supposed to do to combat the -20 temps and about 6:00 am I jammed the stove full for the day's burn. Since I'm at work, that will have to suffice until I get home at which point I'll add more pine to extend the burn and reduce the coal build-up just as I did before. I was very impressed on Sunday when I found the house temp was 1-degree above the set-point all day (negative 8 for the high) and my back-up system only kicked in at some point overnight. During these deep freeze events, I'm used to the back-up kicking in periodically all day and night.

You'll likely adapt your burn habits to maximize the use of the stove and minimize the use of other heat sources as the weather fluctuates.

 

[Fargo]

Thanks @snojetter. Its great to hear how someone nearby is utilizing their stove. I can't tell you how many times this weekend I told my wife I wish we had that wood stove now. I think we are at about the high for today and its only hit -14F. My furnace is kicking in pretty regularly, The wood stove would sure be nice on days like this.

Quick question. I notice you, and a lot of others, have the BK Princess. Are there any big advantages of the Princess over something like the Ashford? Or is that mostly an aesthetic choice. Do all BK function pretty similar?

 

[all night moe]

Are there any big advantages of the Princess over something like the Ashford

Just was going over this myself. Princess has a deep belly and will hold more ash. Ashford is jacketed and easier on the eyes with a traditional look. I believe the Ashford may have a little more of a flame view as compared to the ''blacked out glass'' of the princess? I think I read something about that here somewhere recently.

 

[snojetter]

Quick question. I notice you, and a lot of others, have the BK Princess. Are there any big advantages of the Princess over something like the Ashford? Or is that mostly an aesthetic choice. Do all BK function pretty similar?

I went with the Princess over the King due to the 6" flue vs. an 8" At the time, I don't recall what other options I had (2012), but the looks of the stove were a minor consideration. I can't say I was crazy about how the stove looked, but to me the Ultra looks much better than the Parlor or Classic. After all these years, I don't notice appearances anymore. Performance speaks volumes. And speaking of "volume" the deep firebox is definitely an advantage over the other models. If I keep on top of burning coals down, I can go over a month before needing to clean out the ash. My father-in-law has an Ashford and my brother-in-law has a Sirocco. I was surprised at how shallow the fireboxes are when I first saw them. Scooping ash isn't that big of a deal, so if aesthetics is important by all means go for the style you like. As far as I know, performance is very similar for similar sized stoves. If I had to do it all over again, a small part of me would consider a Sirocco...but I'm pretty sure I'd go with the Princess Ultra again because I do appreciate the deep belly.

As for flame view, with the temps we've been seeing there has been no black box mode for a while. At a minimum there's plenty of orange glow and most of the time there's some dancing flame. But even when throttled down, I think BK owners get used to not seeing any color from the behind the glass. If the room is dark you might get the glow on the floor from the cat; otherwise, you've always got the feeling of heat emanating from the thing reassuring you that you're not paying as much for electricity or gas.

 

[Dieselhead]

I went with the Princess over the King due to the 6" flue vs. an 8" At the time, I don't recall what other options I had (2012), but the looks of the stove were a minor consideration. I can't say I was crazy about how the stove looked, but to me the Ultra looks much better than the Parlor or Classic. After all these years, I don't notice appearances anymore. Performance speaks volumes. And speaking of "volume" the deep firebox is definitely an advantage over the other models. If I keep on top of burning coals down, I can go over a month before needing to clean out the ash. My father-in-law has an Ashford and my brother-in-law has a Sirocco. I was surprised at how shallow the fireboxes are when I first saw them. Scooping ash isn't that big of a deal, so if aesthetics is important by all means go for the style you like. As far as I know, performance is very similar for similar sized stoves. If I had to do it all over again, a small part of me would consider a Sirocco...but I'm pretty sure I'd go with the Princess Ultra again because I do appreciate the deep belly.

As for flame view, with the temps we've been seeing there has been no black box mode for a while. At a minimum there's plenty of orange glow and most of the time there's some dancing flame. But even when throttled down, I think BK owners get used to not seeing any color from the behind the glass. If the room is dark you might get the glow on the floor from the cat; otherwise, you've always got the feeling of heat emanating from the thing reassuring you that you're not paying as much for electricity or gas.

It’s a tool. It don’t have to be pretty it just needs to work. It coulda been pink with purple polka dots and I woulda still bought it (and rapidly repainted it) but you get my point 😎