Dissapointed in New Blaze King King

[jetsam]

I've never run a BK (or any cat stove for that matter) but it sticks out to me that the air is being left wide open all the time...I know on the tube stoves I have run, they put out more heat when throttled down (once the secondary burn is stabilized)
I wonder what happens when this unit is throttled down? And does running the stove wide open all the time damage anything...like maybe the cats cooked? (I know, I know, there's a chinese food joke in there somewhere's)

To get the most heat out of the stove right now, you turn up the air all the way. You are losing some BTUs because the air is whooshing through the cat and it isn't burning everything it could, and more heat is going up the flue too.

To get the most total heat out of a load of wood, you turn the air down most of the way. The cat burns all the stuff that gets offgassed, less heat goes up the flue, and efficiency goes way up.

Running a BK wide open all the time is okay for the stove as long as the bypass is closed (and the gaskets are all good). It's not what you want to do, though.

If you are running it wide open all the time, there is a problem- bad wood, bad draft, or stove too small for the application. You want to size the stove so that it does normally run low, so that you get the efficiency benefits (less wood for the same heat, lower emissions).

Even people who go 'ah who cares, wood is free' tend to lose that attitude after they've been cutting, hauling, splitting, hauling, stacking, hauling, and loading it for a couple years, because more efficiency is less of all of that stuff.

Sometimes none of that matters because the stove is being asked to do what no stove can do- such as heat an uninsulated pole barn or an area with uninsulated masonry walls/floors- and in those cases you're better off working on the insulation rather than the heat source.

One final tip: If you can't get enough heat because the angry spirits of ancient Scottish stonemasons keep trumpeting their icy fury through the frigid halls of their stone crypt, maybe you should just move. (This is a special situation which is hopefully not very common.)

 

[Woody Stover]

A refund maybe in order ONLY if the dealer actually came to the house and hooked it up. Cash and carry is a large part of the stove business, without being on site it's hard to blame the store for a poor chimney. They should have given better advice though. I almost never use the blowers, it's a very capable heater without the blowers. They should not be needed to heat 1100 square feet.

Good points, and it sounds to me like it's a cash-and-carry, self-installed.
As far as the sq. footage, that's 1100 in the un-insulated basement, then you have to get heat to the 1100 main floor, and the stairway may not be centrally located in the main floor. He said the house has been around a long time, so I'll go ahead and guess insulation and air-sealing are marginal, layout is cut up...and then he lives where it's cold. Sounds like an uphill battle all the way. He said he has all the wood he could want, and doesn't mind loading the stove, just had a small box. Maybe he just needs an old smoke-blower with a huge box. Not sure why he didn't go this route in the first place, rather than shelling out 4K for the IDK BK.

 

[bholler]

Lots of wood furnaces installed in basements with NO return air ducting. Just a filter on the box. Take a look in the boiler room where the furnace guys hang out.

yes and we have seen many problems with installs like that. It can create a massive negative pressure issue and most manuals say you cant do it. You are absolutly right with no ducts at all there is no issue the pressure is neutral. But if you have supply ducts with no return duct it can be a big problem.

 

[brenndatomu]

Again if there is an existing FAF system in place my bet is a standalone isn't allowed to be installed separately it would have to be done as a downstream add on. But regardless the universal requirement of the blower would mean ducting is required. As you can't suck 900-1800(more?)cfm of air from right outside a wood combustion box or just from the room it's in, let alone the same room or area that a completely separate FAF is in too. Which again, makes the proper way(a downstream add on) a more practical install as you don't need to install non-combustible return ducts with a properly installed downstream addon

Its done all the time. The furnace I mentioned earlier, the Drolet Heatpro, and its little brother the Drolet Heatmax, are sold with no way to hook the blower box intake up to return air (its optional) so many people (including myself in the past) use the open stairway as "return"...its not optimal but it works.
Yukon even gives you the vent hole size you would need to "return" through a closed door (like a louvered door)

have one big supply duct and one big noncombustible return duct

I've seen you mention non-combustible returns several times now...do you mean supply ducts? The supply is the one off the top of the furnace that needs to be non-combustible...I've never heard of that requirement for returns (for residential)

But what I'm questioning is people saying that a wood furnace can be installed as a standalone in the same room or area as a existing FAF, and run with either no ducting

Why on earth not...its just a very large wood stove (with a giant blower) if there are no ducts hooked up...the blower just forces across the heat exchanger tubes and the firebox, and then around the room. Rinse, and repeat...as long as there is enough makeup air for the combustion process, where's the problem?

 

[brenndatomu]

Maybe he just needs an old smoke-blower with a huge box.

Like a Fisher XL...BIG DADDY!

 

[husky345 vermont resolute]

This is entertaining and lots of good input here guys. Keep up the good work. Hope op gets this sorted out [emoji1303][emoji91]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Squisher]

Not at all. I think you're quite wrong for the case of a freestanding installation. See, the blower will suck air from the room and then pump it right back into the room so pressure is neutral. Lots of wood furnaces installed in basements with NO return air ducting. Just a filter on the box. Take a look in the boiler room where the furnace guys hang out.

If a basement had a door and ducted supply to another level then I could see some pretty ugly backdrafts happening!

I willl check that out.

My reference to the needing ducting was again in the scenario of the OP or anyone else who was going to pump that heat upstairs from the basement and has an existing FAF in place too. That is why I also said I thought it would work fine in your shop.

 

[weatherguy]

I've never run a BK (or any cat stove for that matter) but it sticks out to me that the air is being left wide open all the time...I know on the tube stoves I have run, they put out more heat when throttled down (once the secondary burn is stabilized)
I wonder what happens when this unit is throttled down? And does running the stove wide open all the time damage anything...like maybe the cats cooked? (I know, I know, there's a chinese food joke in there somewhere's)

I asked that question about 5 pages back but didn't get an answer. I used to turn my princess down to 1 and the cat temp would climb halfway past active.

 

[Woody Stover]

A primarily radiant stove would make less hot air than a primarily convective stove. That's the whole point of a convective stove, to heat air.

He said his other stove did the job even though it was small, and it was radiant. It would be interesting to see how the BK would work on a good chimney, with the blower, but I doubt we will see that here...

 

[webby3650]

I asked that question about 5 pages back but didn't get an answer. I used to turn my princess down to 1 and the cat temp would climb halfway past active.

When you throttle it down it simply goes down to a lower output. Running on high with the bypass closed won't hurt the stove. Turning the stove down will actually cause the cat therm to rise. By reducing the air you create more smoke for the cat to consume.

 

[webby3650]

He said his other stove did the job even though it was small, and it was radiant. It would be interesting to see how the BK would work on a good chimney, with the blower, but I doubt we will see that here...

Almost all of us here heat more square footage than the OP with smaller BKs.

 

[Squisher]

Based on the setup I think a barenaked (no side shields), 3 cu ft Drolet would work. That will take 18" wood and they're not too draft sensitive by most report

Thanks for the clarification. Do you know what the code concern with the standalone is? combustion air competition? creating negative pressure if sucking from the basement and supplying upstairs? sharing common chimney?

so to clarify too what we are discussing. A standalone wood furnace installation implies ducting. What is actually being discussed is installing a wood furnace as a space heater instead. And if doing so all of the requirements of the manufacturer will need to be met(thermostat and blower) as well as all of the requirements for a space heater.

So yes a space heater cannot be plumbed into the return air of a FAF with a hood or otherwise and a FAF cannot take more supply air from a room that a space heater is in than it returns. Increased cold air return capacity we've discussed, like the hood in the OP's setup feeding the cold air return is not allowed and can cause negative pressure in the chimney. It certainly isn't helping the draft any on this setup when the furnace fan is running, and worst case is potentially seriously dangerous near the end of a fire when draft weakens.

The duct systems for FAF are designed to provide even heating to all areas of the house. They are balanced. Problems arise when an effort is made to take more air from a room in which a space heater is installed than is supplied.

But if someone wants to install a furnace as a standalone on its own with no ducting just venting straight into the same room it's in, like in high beams big shop, then yes I can see that working as long as it meets all the requirements of a space heater install.

And if someone wanted to do that in their home for whatever reason I guess they could too as long as they meet all the space heater requirements as well as the manufacturers requirements. But as soon as you start ducting that heat out of the room that that furnace(space heater) is in IMO you are no longer using it as a space heater and so would need to meet the requirements for a standalone furnace. Balancing of ducts for the supply and return air. Clearance to combustibles, non combustible returns.

 

[Squisher]

Its done all the time. The furnace I mentioned earlier, the Drolet Heatpro, and its little brother the Drolet Heatmax, are sold with no way to hook the blower box intake up to return air (its optional) so many people (including myself in the past) use the open stairway as "return"...its not optimal but it works.
Yukon even gives you the vent hole size you would need to "return" through a closed door (like a louvered door)

Ok so I've typed out a few times why the potential for a negative pressure situation is dangerous and why return air must equal supply air. Maybe regional, but I've probably cleaned 20 furnaces this last year and they all have ducted return air.

I've seen you mention non-combustible returns several times now...do you mean supply ducts? The supply is the one off the top of the furnace that needs to be non-combustible...I've never heard of that requirement for returns (for residential)

Maybe it's different in the USA but up here the reason is this. The direction of airflow through solid fuel burning furnaces can reverse during power outages so non-combustible ducts are required. Joist lined return ducts must not be used on independent and combination furnaces using solid fuels. The ducts must be made from sheet metal and suspended th required distance from combustible material.

Why on earth not...its just a very large wood stove (with a giant blower) if there are no ducts hooked up...the blower just forces across the heat exchanger tubes and the firebox, and then around the room. Rinse, and repeat...as long as there is enough makeup air for the combustion process, where's the problem?

I answered your first couple of comments in bold in the quote. As to your last point. I guess you could do that, like highbeam was describing for his shop, as long as all the requirements for a space heater were met. It seems odd to me that anyone would want to do that in their home, unless they were somehow pushing that heat upstairs with ducting. Or using their existing furnace, which wouldn't be allowed. Our code clearly states that heated air can't be introduced to the inlet of a furnace. I guess what's throwing me off about that type of install is I clean quite a few furnaces and I've never seen one set up as a space heater. I've cleaned a few standalone ones too and they were fully ducted. So possibly some fear of the unknown. lol.

 

[Squisher]

id guess part of why I've never seen a setup like that is it makes no sense to me to want or have a wood furnace in the living area. The ones I see here are closed off in furnace/mechanical rooms. Out of sight and kept quiet, like a normal furnace. So without ducting they wouldn't be doing much besides grossly overheating the room they're in.

 

[webby3650]

I don't remember the OP showing any interest in a furnace. He's trying to get his freestanding woodstove to heat the space...

 

[bholler]

I don't remember the OP showing any interest in a furnace. He's trying to get his freestanding woodstove to heat the space...

Yes we are way off track for sure. But he does have a hood with ducts to distribute the heat which tells me he is trying to make his freestander work like a furnace.

 

[Squisher]

Granted it's a huge derail. But he did specifically ask me about wood furnaces, many pages back now.

I've pursued it to try and learn about them. I'll drop it and get back to regular programming now.

 

[Highbeam]

as soon as you start ducting that heat out of the room that that furnace(space heater) is in IMO you are no longer using it as a space heater and so would need to meet the requirements for a standalone furnace. Balancing of ducts for the supply and return air.

I think you are missing the part about the basement door being open, no basement door, or a properly sized opening between floors. The supply and return ARE balanced. The return just happens to be right there on the wood furnace down in the basement where the cold air is.

 

[webby3650]

Yes we are way off track for sure. But he does have a hood with ducts to distribute the heat which tells me he is trying to make his freestander work like a furnace.

I agree

 

[Highbeam]

Yes we are way off track for sure. But he does have a hood with ducts to distribute the heat which tells me he is trying to make his freestander work like a furnace.

In the US we have that ten foot rule. So as long as the overstove hood is 10 feet away, what's the problem?

 

[Attaboy]

He said his other stove did the job even though it was small, and it was radiant.

Not to forget here that his previous stove was free flowing meaning that you loaded wood in to it, opened the air control(s), got it up to temp, then reduced the air to get the desired heat output, the flames touched the steel directly, this steel would get very hot then radiate heat all around it and of course heat rises, now the problem being that the stove having no interior restriction 65% - 75% of the heat free flowed up and out the chimney and this of course strongly heating up of the chimney created high draft because of having basically no restriction inside that stove to hold it back. Huge waste of heat and fuel and tons of air pollution ! However it worked fine to heat a 1100 sq. ft. basement and more when the heat was recuperated. No longer necessarily so with anything designed to burn wood that is EPA certified.

 

[Squisher]

In the US we have that ten foot rule. So as long as the overstove hood is 10 feet away, what's the problem?

The problem is he isn't in the US.

 

[Squisher]

I think you are missing the part about the basement door being open, no basement door, or a properly sized opening between floors. The supply and return ARE balanced. The return just happens to be right there on the wood furnace down in the basement where the cold air is.

Honestly still seems an odd install to me. I've been trying to envision if my summit was a furnace installed as a space heater. I'll be mullling that over. But I will concede I guess that it could be done as long as all space heater requirements were met and the manufacturers requirements too. As I say I guess the volume of air flow in the blower and the fact I've never seen this type of install and wasn't discussed in my courses or manuals was throwing me for a loop on it. But that's why I'm here too, to learn.

 

[Highbeam]

Just imagine it like really short supply and return ducts. Talk about a good way to get an ugly but high capacity solid fuel wood heater. Unfortunately, they most all burn with high emissions. Good enough for EPA but not for WA.

 

[rdust]

The steel door is also changing what most of us are used to. I know when I have a box full of flames the front glass is the hottest part of the stove. My IR gun will ---- since temps exceed its 850 limit.

I remember years ago walking into a neighbors basement that heats with an old defiant it was 600 and the heat was insane. I remember thinking wow, that's nothing like my stoves!