Dissapointed in New Blaze King King

[Squisher]

I mentioned the valley comfort furnace aways back because that is a BK product so presumably the dealer has access to it if he's selling BK's.

But it's not as simple as just connecting it inline and good to go. There are strict guidelines for add on furnaces. I will try to get some relevant info up later but it may be tomorrow. I've got chores to do.

 

[BKVP]

I have been hesitant to weigh-in on this one. Mostly because there is already a great deal of experience and much of what I would have said (written) has already been said (written).

I will add just a bit.

When we try to help diagnosis performance issues we first evaluate the stove.

1) Is the bypass working and is it locking down.

2) When burning on high, does the stove have flames in the firebox.

3) When you turn down the thermostat, do the flames disappear.

4) Does the fuel load burn to completion.

5) Does the cat thermometer show the combustors in the active range with the fans off for 15-20 minutes.

6) Intermittently, does the combustor produce a partial or full glow.

If all the above checks out, it is not the stove.

So we then ask the obvious question, how many pounds of fuel are you putting into the firebox when all the ashes and coals have been removed. Calculate the total Btu's input, divide that by burn time and you will have a gross Btu's per hour production. (Less Btu's consumed to eliminate moisture content and multiply by 82.5% for higher value efficiency). The you will know how many Btu's the stove is actually producing.

There are plenty of anecdotal stories for supporting the ability of the stove, so if all the above works out, where are those Btu's going?

Next, some general observations. Smoke spillage could indicate plugged or starting to plug cap, chimney obstruction or in this case reduction in chimney size. Are there King's running on 7" class A straight up and out that have no issues, yes. Almost all in the coldest regions of Canada or Alaska. However, there are far more that try it and fail. This speaks to the ongoing point I post often...no two installs are identical.

Masonry chimneys often mean elbows. Insulated liners usually cure issues for masonry chimneys but not when they are reduced.

When I meet with dealers and their consumers say they are doing a basement install with a masonry chimney with less than 10" I.d., I urge them to consider installing a Princess. The 6" system would permit for an insulated liner, the peak and low end BTU differences are minimal and the likelihood of consumer bliss is nearly assured. However, some folks just want the biggest firebox. For those installations, I would always suggest that the installation criteria must then be met. The operators and owners manual is very explicit (as required by new NSPS) as to proper installation and operation.

One last comment, the dome of the combustor housing was not a retrofit to a prior model or version of the King 1107 or any other model. In order to provide the very deep belly (think ash/coal) carrying capacity, the door opening must be engineered upward. In 18 years, this is the first time I have heard this being either a criticism or performance issue.

I want to thank the OP for his patience, due diligence and willingness to explore making his investment worthwhile. I would suggest asking the dealer or a friend to loan the OP an IR Gun so that some valuable surface temp readings can be taken.

TREV, all these folks, BK owners or not are here to help. Their experiences cover dozens of stoves and combined, hundreds of years of experience. (This is not a shot at the old guys...because I'm one).

Your desire to meet with the dealer in person and express your concerns is the correct path.

Keep in mind that newer designed wood stoves are engineered to burn cleanly and some very efficiently, thereby losing very little heat up the stack. In your install, with such a long chimney, I will bet IR readings will show very low temps and support this. A insulated liner is the answer. It can also provide additional peace of mind. But not for your King application/chimney I.d.

The old pre EPA Blaze King stoves were MONSTER heaters that produced high emissions and had low efficiency. The only benefit of them was the heat production and heat loss up the stack.

I can't add any more, so please continue to post your data here and I will check back in a few days.

Again, thank you.

 

[trevj]

Like many he has gone from an old smoker/polluter stove to a modern very hi-tech stove which operates totally differently than the previous smoker/polluter that was there for years, it is not rare to meet someone who does not like the new EPA stoves at all and that has not been able to get use to their operation or has transitioned with difficulty. I am sure Trev at time of purchase believed he was purchasing the best stove in the world to keep warm with and was in a way happy to spend the $4000.00 expecting far greater than what he's got so far. He has gone from a radiating type stove to a convection type stove without purchasing the fans to move the convection heat generated, that in itself IMO is a problem, however I do understand that he wants answers and resolution to his problem and some of the facts/data he will gather will help him along with this. Once the data gathered he will be in a far better position to understand and attempt to resolve some issues and discuss with his dealer as well to obtain some help. I do agree that a certified knowledgeable tech is worth his weight in gold under these circumstances.

You know, you covered that pretty well, in the main.

I didn't buy the fans, because I have a furnace with ducting, to distribute the heat around my house. I am not trying to heat this immediate area, as much as provide an alternate heat source for the whole place. it worked with the old stove. <sigh>
It's not working out so well, really.

FWIW, I did run an oscillating fan on the floor behind the stove, blowing across it. Distributed the heat around this end of the basement pretty well, but that sure did not do upstairs much good. Turned it off.

In truth, never even considered buying the fans. Could not tell you what the dealer wants for them either, looked around the web, while shopping and comparing specs, saw a couple ducts, two crappy little motors with fan blades on, and a variable speed control, for ~$400, and thought them not worth the time or effort to inquire after. Felt I could build as good or better should I ever want.

I figure a budget of about $50 in parts at a computer place, and I can build a fan system that is as easy to use, and can actually be set up to automatically ramp up and down the speeds based on temperature, for example. Or I can just root through my accumulated cra...treasures, and build something really similar to theirs, from what is on hand. it's a fan and some tin on each side of the back of the stove, not a bloody NASA experiment.

Anyhoo, I just got lost on the web trying to find a price on the fan install kit, without much luck.

Cheers
Trev

 

[trevj]

I have been hesitant to weigh-in on this one. Mostly because there is already a great deal of experience and much of what I would have said (written) has already been said (written).

I will add just a bit.

When we try to help diagnosis performance issues we first evaluate the stove.

1) Is the bypass working and is it locking down.

Seems to be. Feels like a solid hit, when closing, add the distance of the extra push past the latch. seems to be opening and allowing flow, when I just open the door and do not add wood.

2) When burning on high, does the stove have flames in the firebox.

Has a steel door to do away with any risk of broken glass. But a quick open of the door without the bypass open (accident) got me a pretty nice ring of fire around the opening. I can hear the damper cycle, and the wood burn when it does.

3) When you turn down the thermostat, do the flames disappear.

Don't know. Can't see, and have not been running at low settings.

4) Does the fuel load burn to completion.

YES! Hallelujah! That it does.

5) Does the cat thermometer show the combustors in the active range with the fans off for 15-20 minutes.

No fans installed, not been using the external that I tried.

6) Intermittently, does the combustor produce a partial or full glow.

No idea. Again, steel door. I have the Classic, as it was lower to the ground, and simpler. Didn't want legs, didn't want a ash pan under it.

If all the above checks out, it is not the stove.

/QUOTE]

 

[trevj]

So we then ask the obvious question, how many pounds of fuel are you putting into the firebox when all the ashes and coals have been removed. Calculate the total Btu's input, divide that by burn time and you will have a gross Btu's per hour production. (Less Btu's consumed to eliminate moisture content and multiply by 82.5% for higher value efficiency). The you will know how many Btu's the stove is actually producing.

There are plenty of anecdotal stories for supporting the ability of the stove, so if all the above works out, where are those Btu's going?

Next, some general observations. Smoke spillage could indicate plugged or starting to plug cap, chimney obstruction or in this case reduction in chimney size. Are there King's running on 7" class A straight up and out that have no issues, yes. Almost all in the coldest regions of Canada or Alaska. However, there are far more that try it and fail. This speaks to the ongoing point I post often...no two installs are identical.

Masonry chimneys often mean elbows. Insulated liners usually cure issues for masonry chimneys but not when they are reduced.

When I meet with dealers and their consumers say they are doing a basement install with a masonry chimney with less than 10" I.d., I urge them to consider installing a Princess. The 6" system would permit for an insulated liner, the peak and low end BTU differences are minimal and the likelihood of consumer bliss is nearly assured. However, some folks just want the biggest firebox. For those installations, I would always suggest that the installation criteria must then be met. The operators and owners manual is very explicit (as required by new NSPS) as to proper installation and operation.

One last comment, the dome of the combustor housing was not a retrofit to a prior model or version of the King 1107 or any other model. In order to provide the very deep belly (think ash/coal) carrying capacity, the door opening must be engineered upward. In 18 years, this is the first time I have heard this being either a criticism or performance issue.

I want to thank the OP for his patience, due diligence and willingness to explore making his investment worthwhile. I would suggest asking the dealer or a friend to loan the OP an IR Gun so that some valuable surface temp readings can be taken.

TREV, all these folks, BK owners or not are here to help. Their experiences cover dozens of stoves and combined, hundreds of years of experience. (This is not a shot at the old guys...because I'm one).

Your desire to meet with the dealer in person and express your concerns is the correct path.

Keep in mind that newer designed wood stoves are engineered to burn cleanly and some very efficiently, thereby losing very little heat up the stack. In your install, with such a long chimney, I will bet IR readings will show very low temps and support this. A insulated liner is the answer. It can also provide additional peace of mind. But not for your King application/chimney I.d.

The old pre EPA Blaze King stoves were MONSTER heaters that produced high emissions and had low efficiency. The only benefit of them was the heat production and heat loss up the stack.

I can't add any more, so please continue to post your data here and I will check back in a few days.

Again, thank you.

I have answered your numbered questions in my previous post, interspersed with the questions. I bolded them for maybe easier reading.

I would pretty much need a drilling rig to straddle my house to knock out the clay and install the liner as has been suggested to me. I was pondering whether the folks that suggest the likes of those renovations, are the same sort that think a 'minor' Kitchen reno is somewhere near a $100,000 job, or that a couple million bucks was a 'bargain', for a house that was being loaded into a dump truck with a grapple loader.
Makes for interesting TV, if you like that sort, but I don't have their money to spend, and likely wouldn't waste it on what they do, either.

With the old runt of a stove, once the chimney mass was warmed, it provided a pretty reasonable amount of the heat transfer in the uppermost and some into the Living room on the mainfloor. the rest of the heating system was designed around the use of the forced air furnace picking up and distributing the heat around the house living areas, with only the stairwell open to the basement otherwise.

I am surprised to hear that nobody before me has mentioned the impingement of the dome, in to the door line. While I appreciate the volume below the door, I have particularly begun to detest not being able to look down and being able to adjudge the size of the wood that will fit, from the door edge. The burn on my arm, while minor, is irritating, and came about as the coals were sloped rather higher in the back than front, allowing me to actually feel that I had the block of wood past the edge of the dome, and it wedged pretty good in my hurry to get it in and the door closed. Yeah, not so much, that...
To get down low enough to see in to fiddle a piece in, I have to kneel down on a pad, bend over and peer in, while swinging the door open and closed again with the other hand to try to deal with the smoke which pukes forth once fresh wood has been added onto hot coals. I will be clear once again, that I do not believe that any smoke is being sucked into my house, it is smoke from added fresh wood, which is not drawn up by the draft when the it flares.
I find that I am loading in less wood than I think I should be able to, as it seems rather a PITA to be eyeballing the gap and trying to split individual pieces of wood even further, so as to be able to place them in the gap. Especially, while on my knees and swinging the door. I figure about a three inch or so gap along the top of the load of wood to the dome, would be about typical. Will dig out a loop of cord and a scale, and start weighing in my wood over the next few days.

The more I look into this and learn, the more it looks like I am currently stuck with an appliance for which my residence is not and can not be adapted.
Even were I to blow out the thimble on the chimney and grind it out to an 8 inch (messy), it still is not going to be as per the recommendations. Seems a non-starter to me. Plugging the current thimble, and installing another higher up, doesn't seem much of a good use of time and money either, if there is not a VERY high confidence in it solving the issues at hand.

Thanks for your consideration.

Cheers
Trev

 

[trevj]

I mentioned the valley comfort furnace aways back because that is a BK product so presumably the dealer has access to it if he's selling BK's.

But it's not as simple as just connecting it inline and good to go. There are strict guidelines for add on furnaces. I will try to get some relevant info up later but it may be tomorrow. I've got chores to do.

Thanks Squisher, appreciate the help. Especially from a fellow familiar with the local Provincial codes!

Cheers
Trev

 

[Squisher]

A window downstairs, or up?

If I understand correctly, the negative pressure you refer to is from the warm air mass in the basement attempting to rise, countering the flow of air/draft up the chimney, correct?

I sorta think I got the physics, if a little tenuous on the terminology.

What do you know about the installation of the likes of the larger Furnaces with the ducting intended to be hooked in to the central system? Do they fall under the same requirements for emissions?
If I have to choose between one of those, and what I have now, I can tell ya in a heartbeat that the Blaze King would be out the door. I don't really care if it looks like a 1970's refrigerator with the wrong kind of door on it, if it heats!

I have free wood, and bloody lots of it. Most will either fall on the ground, and rot, or be stacked and burned as part of the post-logging clean-up.
I don't pay for wood. If I had to do that, I'd plant roses in every wood stove here, and use them as roadside sign holders.

My house actually feels warm for the first time in a while. It hasn't been all that cold out.

Cheers
Trev

So a wood add on furnace couldn't be put on the supply side of the existing furnace. Only two types of downstream installations are acceptable for add ons. In series or with a divider plate in the original furnaces plenum. The divider plate method can be restrictive unless there's lots of headroom in the furnace. So a lot of ductwork can be nescessary if installed in series to reroute supply lines to the add ons plenum(or to reroute returns if you moved the existing furnace).

Air flow should be tested before any installation work begins so that the blower can be adjusted afterwards to get the same rate of airflow and temperature rise. Overloading and overheating of the original furnaces blower is a concern.

The electrical is. Complicated.

all the furnace controls have to be set and checked. Distribution system, thermostats, barometric damper, thorough testing of the install to ensure everything is wired and operating properly.

About the only good news is the combustible return ducts don't have to be replaced when connecting a add on.

When selecting an add on it's output should be roughly equal to the existing furnaces output.

Or you could replace the existing furnace with a combination wood/electric(I thought you said your furnace was electric?). The wiring is simpler. There is still a lot to sort out with clearances for plenum and ducts. Compatibility with what's already in place and all cold air return ducts have to be made non-combustible. Not like with a add on.

It's involved stuff. I've never installed one. I've cleaned quite a few now. But just learned about them mostly through courses, manuals, and cleaning them.

 

[bholler]

I would pretty much need a drilling rig to straddle my house to knock out the clay and install the liner as has been suggested to me.

Why is that I break out old clay tiles all the time without building anything. And without the customer spending $100000. It is a very common part of working on chimneys.

I have answered your numbered questions in my previous post, interspersed with the questions. I bolded them for maybe easier reading.

Actually no you really didn't answer many of them at all. I am sorry but it really seems like you have more desire to complain about the stove than you do to get it working. You have not even called the dealer for their advice you have not posted pictures of the setup. And you really only answered one of the questions that the VP of the company asked you so he could try to help.

 

[webby3650]

I think the solid door should be removed as an option. It makes it very frustrating to help diagnose an issue. I love seeing what's going on in there and it's very helpful at times.

Maybe the only problem with the cat housing hanging down low is that you bought the shortest stove. Sitting on the floor trying to stuff wood in the there is the problem more so than the cat housing in my opinion.

 

[tarzan]

Smoke spillage is a problem normally associated with poor draft. The troubles you are having with the normally mundane task of loading your stove seems to be in large part due too smoke spillage.

Many folks here with the same stove design as you and many more with burn tubes running across the top of there stoves. Coming from a pre EPA stove I can see where it would take a little getting used to but it really shouldn't be such a traumatic event.

 

[Dieselhead]

Straight up will make a huge difference. Main living space or finished basement I presume?

Pretty much straight up. 2 15 degree elbows to offset it from the ridge board. The stove heats main living space.

To the OP pics would help, sometimes they show something you may forget to explain in your setup. I've seen it help here in the past.

 

[Niko]

Maybe your old stove worked better because your flu temps where 5 times hotter. If smoke is coming out of your stove you need to run it on high and leave the door open a lot longer before you fully open the door. I had this problem also when I first bought mine and many on this forum helped me. Now i don't have this problem because i learned what i was doing wrong. Im still have some problems and sometimes i think it the stove but in the end its been my wood.

But i also got to be blunt and point out the obvious, post a dam pic or even a video of whats going on. its not that hard, We have no idea if your hear to bash the stove or if you really need help.

I am a complete rookie with woodburning and my blaze king will get my downstairs 100 plus if i leave it full blast for a while. Tho i have never done it i can achieve 90+ easy with the stove cranked halfway up.


Not sure if it was mentioned before you ever think of putting a class a chimney on the side of your house?

 

[BuckyBeaver524]

Well said! I hope the dealer is competent enough to help..

Do dealers typically get certified by the manufacturers? I'm not sure how the dealer/manufacturer relationship works.

 

[BKVP]

Do dealers typically get certified by the manufacturers? I'm not sure how the dealer/manufacturer relationship works.

I cannot speak to other company programs, but we make a great effort to educate our reps and our dealers on our products. Because no two installs are alike, dealers will sometimes say "it should work". This is of course predicated on their own experiences, some with decades of such experience.

This web site and the forum here are an excellent conduit for additional education and most importantly REINFORCEMENT of what has already been said. By this I mean to say that when a consumer calls here, we provide support and make recommendations. Often, within 24 hours, the same people start a thread asking for advise. When this fraternity of folks point out the exact same suggestions, then people seem to listen. In a way, you all become the "second opinion."

Then again, there have been a few situations where the dealer tells the consumer, "this is not the right application and you could run into difficulties." However, because the person had a prior solid fuel heater that worked, they can and do discount the warning of the dealer(s) and do what they want anyway. Not that this happened in this case. And of course, there are a few dealers that say or do something in a particular instance for a particular customer that is not correct, and the whole one bad apple...thing starts.

Dealers sell numbers of products that revolve in and out of production, so keeping up on all the various brands, models, kits, tech bulletins etc. (not to mention turn over in staff) can be overwhelming.

 

[Highbeam]

So a wood add on furnace couldn't be put on the supply side of the existing furnace. Only two types of downstream installations are acceptable for add ons. In series or with a divider plate in the original furnaces plenum. The divider plate method can be restrictive unless there's lots of headroom in the furnace. So a lot of ductwork can be nescessary if installed in series to reroute supply lines to the add ons plenum(or to reroute returns if you moved the existing furnace).

Air flow should be tested before any installation work begins so that the blower can be adjusted afterwards to get the same rate of airflow and temperature rise. Overloading and overheating of the original furnaces blower is a concern.

The electrical is. Complicated.

all the furnace controls have to be set and checked. Distribution system, thermostats, barometric damper, thorough testing of the install to ensure everything is wired and operating properly.

About the only good news is the combustible return ducts don't have to be replaced when connecting a add on.

When selecting an add on it's output should be roughly equal to the existing furnaces output.

Or you could replace the existing furnace with a combination wood/electric(I thought you said your furnace was electric?). The wiring is simpler. There is still a lot to sort out with clearances for plenum and ducts. Compatibility with what's already in place and all cold air return ducts have to be made non-combustible. Not like with a add on.

It's involved stuff. I've never installed one. I've cleaned quite a few now. But just learned about them mostly through courses, manuals, and cleaning them.

So that's if you want to hook the furnace up to the ductwork. What about the option of a stand alone furnace. Just dumping the immense heat into the 1100 SF basement and leaving the existing furnace system untouched? Another option is to install one or two ducts from the wood furnace into the living space above independent of the existing furnace system.

Does Canada prohibit these installations that are allowed by the furnace manufacturers?

 

[Ashful]

I would pretty much need a drilling rig to straddle my house to knock out the clay and install the liner as has been suggested to me. I was pondering whether the folks that suggest the likes of those renovations, are the same sort that think a 'minor' Kitchen reno is somewhere near a $100,000 job, or that a couple million bucks was a 'bargain', for a house that was being loaded into a dump truck with a grapple loader.
Makes for interesting TV, if you like that sort, but I don't have their money to spend, and likely wouldn't waste it on what they do, either.

I know it's early in the year to be discussing the awards ceremony, but I'd like to nominate the above for the most asinine post for 2017.

 

[Squisher]

You could do a standalone but the ducting would have to be completely separate. It would be very uncommon to add a standalone when another forced air system is in place. A standalone could not be interconnected to the existing furnace at all. They are most commonly used when there is no existing forced air furnace, when a home has say baseboard electric or something.

I would say it's not common to buy a furnace to operate as a space heater. But if the manufacturers instructions permit that sort of install with no return or supply ducting than I suppose you could.

Can you reference the type of install you are saying is allowed by the manufacturer?

 

[jetsam]

Given that this whole set of problems seems to possibly be caused by a long elbowy 7" flue, a wood furnace may actually be a worse idea than a stove that needs a 6" flue.

I don't know a lot about wood furnaces, but a quick search doesn't turn up any 6" flue EPA models.

A draft question for the experts: If you're stuck with a long, winding flue and you have a 6" stove, are you better off running a 6" insulated liner or might a 7" insulated liner be better, to help make up for the elbows?

 

[Squisher]

And if a standalone needs the return and supply air ducting it would be prohibitive to try to install it separately of the existing FAF as well as meeting the requirements of having either one able to operate independently without affecting another. It would be much simpler to go with a add on.

You could use a big space heater like the OP is and/or install a furnace again like he had. But that hood overtop feeding the cold air return is specifically prohibited. If you know of manufacturers that allow that type of install, post up.

the balancing of supply and return air are a big part of the installation of a standalone, combination, or add on. The installation of wood furnaces is not simple espescially compared with space heater(wood stoves, inserts).

 

[Squisher]

Given that this whole set of problems seems to possibly be caused by a long elbowy 7" flue, a wood furnace may actually be a worse idea than a stove that needs a 6" flue.

I don't know a lot about wood furnaces, but a quick search doesn't turn up any 6" flue EPA models.

A draft question for the experts: If you're stuck with a long, winding flue and you have a 6" stove, are you better off running a 6" insulated liner or might a 7" insulated liner be better, to help make up for the elbows?

I'm still trying to wade through regs to educate myself but there are many 6" and 7" wood furnaces. Check out the valley comfort apex at 7" 87.2hhv efficiency and cat technology.

 

[Squisher]

So that's if you want to hook the furnace up to the ductwork. What about the option of a stand alone furnace. Just dumping the immense heat into the 1100 SF basement and leaving the existing furnace system untouched? Another option is to install one or two ducts from the wood furnace into the living space above independent of the existing furnace system.

Does Canada prohibit these installations that are allowed by the furnace manufacturers?

I think you ar misinterpreting standalone. That doesn't mean no ducting or blower or thermostat, it just means that there is no other heating component to the FAF. A standalone wood furnace does not mean used as a space heater.

 

[brenndatomu]

I don't know a lot about wood furnaces, but a quick search doesn't turn up any 6" flue EPA models.

Here's a whole list of 'em...https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/hot-air-wood-furnaces-that-meet-the-new-epa-regs.159912/
I don't think there are any EPA wood furnaces that use anything other than a 6" flue currently

 

[BKVP]

I'm still trying to wade through regs to educate myself but there are many 6" and 7" wood furnaces. Check out the valley comfort apex at 7" 87.2hhv efficiency and cat technology.

This is a large firebox unit, low Btu heater designed for 1,200 sq ft average home. Designed for a 7" flue...

 

[Squisher]

This is a large firebox unit, low Btu heater designed for 1,200 sq ft average home. Designed for a 7" flue...

Can any of your guys furnaces be installed as space heaters as highbeam suggested?

 

[brenndatomu]

I've never run a BK (or any cat stove for that matter) but it sticks out to me that the air is being left wide open all the time...I know on the tube stoves I have run, they put out more heat when throttled down (once the secondary burn is stabilized)
I wonder what happens when this unit is throttled down? And does running the stove wide open all the time damage anything...like maybe the cats cooked? (I know, I know, there's a chinese food joke in there somewhere's)