cat and non-cat questions

[kennyp2339]

I'm only allowed one active cat at a time in my house, so the princess takes the cold weather shift

 

[JA600L]

The only downside I can see to buying a cat stove to burn WFO 24/7 would be a tube stove could do it for a third of the cost but whoever needs that needs a bigger stove. The only guy I can think of who comes closest to burning this way is a member of this sight and loves his cat stove!

What I'm getting at is why would a hybrid be needed then? If they could get the best results with a cat only stove they would. Why complicate it if it isn't more effective? I'm sure it's not a huge difference, but some companies are aiming for the very best results.

 

[tarzan]

What I'm getting at is why would a hybrid be needed then? If they could get the best results with a cat only stove they would. Why complicate it if it isn't more effective? I'm sure it's not a huge difference, but some companies are aiming for the very best results.

Perhaps you are using the word effective where I'm starting to think you mean efficiant.

As I said before, the BK cat stove can effectively run at any reasonable temp a tube stove or hybrid stove can.

When it comes to efficiency, I don't know if it can heat on the higher end as efficiant as a hybrid. I think the idea behind the hybrids are more about emissions than efficiancy. Not that they are not also efficiant.

I honestly don't care if the cat stoves run as efficiant at higher temps as a hybrid. I have ran the BK at 700* a few times but only for an hour under direction of BKVP who claimes it is a good thing to do occasionly during shoulder season to burn the buildup out of the stove, that is a result of constant smoldering. Other than that, a full load will last between 12 to 24 hours and beyond at 350* to 500*. This, and an occasional 600*,has been all that has been needed to heat my home so far and I think more in line with the way the stove is intended to be ran.

 

[kennyp2339]

I think the hybrids are the next generation, with the EPA demanding a reduction of smoke / particles, some companies want to develop and patent a new design that further reduces environmental concerns while remaining ahead of the game as a lead fore front developer, it's simply good for business and products in terms of advertising, you never get a stale product line. With that said my opinion and only my opinion is the bk company may have certain design patents on there stoves as far as cat placement which helps with heat production and reduced emissions that other companies can not copy so they are forced to develop a different style fire box / baffle design thus hybrid tech... And there's nothing wrong with that.. I would def consider a hybrid as a second stove or if I moved to different house but ATM the bk princess is doing great for me

 

[begreen]

The hybrid design is to burn cleaner when there is a large volume of wood outgassing at once. It adds secondary combustion for a more complete burn. This should also translate into more heat produced. The cat is for low burn rates and secondary combustion is for high burn rates.

 

[Highbeam]

The hybrid design is to burn cleaner when there is a large volume of wood outgassing at once. It adds secondary combustion for a more complete burn. This should also translate into more heat produced. The cat is for low burn rates and secondary combustion is for high burn rates.

I agree that this is the intent of the current WS hybrids. Emissions is the highest priority, across the entire operating range. They are getting really close with the IS hybrid, the only performance problem left is the ability to run slow which has haunted them with all of the hybrid designs. Some folks, maybe even WS, conveniently don't care about long burn times or low burn rates so for them the hybrids from WS are already approaching perfection.

Parts durability, cat clogging, also seem to be problems across all brands of hybrids.

 

[begreen]

All of the hybrid designs are new on the market within the past two years. There has been a learning curve as these stoves get run in real world conditions. But fortunately it appears that manufacturers are reacting quickly with improvements. Incrementally each design will get better. For example, the IS appears to be having less teething pains than the PH. I haven't heard of any cat clogging with the IS. Lopi changed its foundry when there were casting issues with the Cape Cod. This is why I like to wait a couple years before recommending a new stove.

 

[Highbeam]

What I'm getting at is why would a hybrid be needed then? If they could get the best results with a cat only stove they would. Why complicate it if it isn't more effective? I'm sure it's not a huge difference, but some companies are aiming for the very best results.

Emissions. Cat stoves can do anything a hybrid can but at high burn rates, the hybrid design allegedly burns cleaner up top. If lower emissions is your #1 priority then you add the noncat gear. Conversely, a noncat has a hard time burning low cleanly so to try and clean up the bottom end of a noncat brands have added cats.

This all sounds great if the final product is able to burn slow enough to be competitive with full cat stoves.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Emissions. Cat stoves can do anything a hybrid can but at high burn rates, the hybrid design allegedly burns cleaner up top. If lower emissions is your #1 priority then you add the noncat gear. Conversely, a noncat has a hard time burning low cleanly so to try and clean up the bottom end of a noncat brands have added cats.

This all sounds great if the final product is able to burn slow enough to be competitive with full cat stoves.

Highbeam, when you burn at the lowest setting do you get any smoke smell at all in the house?

 

[brad wilton]

QUESTION,can you burn a cat stove like a regular burner without damaging stove let's say cat died can't replace for a while? might be considered dumb question but have no idea

 

[begreen]

Yes, it would be very inefficient to run it with the bypass open, but possible. The stove would essentially be running like an old smoke dragon. Some hybrids might be better in this circumstance.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Yes, it would be very inefficient to run it with the bypass open, but possible. The stove would essentially be running like an old smoke dragon. Some hybrids might be better in this circumstance.

I know a guy who burned his PH for several weeks with the bypass open. He claims he didn't damage the stove but when he turned the air way down, he loaded up his chimney with a lot of creosote and soot. I would rather shut the stove down then take a chance..

 

[begreen]

That's why I said "some" hybrids. I think the PH introduces secondary air thermostatically so on low burn it makes sense that it was very dirty. And then his wood could have been sub-par which would compound the issue. The IS has an air control that opens and closes the primary and secondary air in tandem, like the PE Super series and the Hwam. I would expect the IS to operate better in this circumstance, but have not tried it.

 

[JA600L]

Emissions. Cat stoves can do anything a hybrid can but at high burn rates, the hybrid design allegedly burns cleaner up top. If lower emissions is your #1 priority then you add the noncat gear. Conversely, a noncat has a hard time burning low cleanly so to try and clean up the bottom end of a noncat brands have added cats.

This all sounds great if the final product is able to burn slow enough to be competitive with full cat stoves.

This really comes down to how well its designed. The IS goes into a very deep cat burn when you ask it to. So deep that it can and will leave you with black glass. It will burn for a very long time like that. How long? I don't know, nor do I really care. I like being able to see through my glass and I can easily get 14-16 hours on a full load without needing to go there. In really cold weather 11-12 hour runs are no problem. It will very effectively run low and slow IF that is what you want it to do.

I do not use this stove to its full ability. I have never packed this thing completely full. If I cleaned all the ash out and packed her to the gills running low and slow 20 or more hours would be very doable.

 

[rdust]

Here are the EPA numbers for emissions rate. http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf

The BK stoves: Ashford/Sirocco/Chinook firebox is listed at .97 grams/hr, the King is 1.8 grams/hr and the Princess is 2.4 grams/hr. These are stoves with just a cat. The Princess doesn't meet the proposed 2020 2 grams/hr but pretty darn close.

The Woodstock stoves: Fireview 1.4 grams/hr(cat only), Keystone 1.9 grams/hr(cat only), Progress Hybrid 1.3 grams/hr and IS 1.0 grams/hr.

I'm kind of surprised after looking at the EPA numbers the new BK firebox is doing better than all the fancy hybrid technology since it's been posted many times the hybrid stoves are cleaner. Heck Woodstocks own cat only stoves look pretty darn good! I "think" I remember reading the smaller fireboxes are easier to get to burn clean.

Regardless of the numbers a properly run cat only, hybrid or tube stove will burn plenty clean. Heck, Engladers 30 tested at 1.6 grams/hr and that's a big ole non cat!

 

[kennyp2339]

Wow - the numbers say everything, I think we are all lucky to be involved into wood stoves in this era of time, so many things changing, new designs ect.. it reminds me of the 90's with the computer age..everything was changing every month.

 

[begreen]

Yes, with the new EPA regs I think we are going to see some interesting new stove designs.

 

[JA600L]

It's also interesting that the Progress is listed with a higher efficiency number then the Ideal Steel. Woodstock has had the Ideal tested at 82% efficient but maybe it wasn't the same epa test?

 

[begreen]

The latest data for Woodstock stoves was missing in the Jan 2015 EPA report.

 

[BrotherBart]

Here comes the iStove.

 

[begreen]

Oh great, it gets YouTube and Hearth.com!

 

[Rearscreen]

As a new cat owner, and getting used to it, I am realizing that cleaning the combustor is going to be a regular ritual. I'm glad that the model I purchased it's a snap to get to and clean. Not so with another model (same brand) according to one of my friends who owns one. But, a consideration when considering a cat stove.

 

[begreen]

What stove? Can you add this to your signature?

 

[rdust]

The latest data for Woodstock stoves was missing in the Jan 2015 EPA report.

It's been fixed in the link I posted.

 

[begreen]

Great, thanks!