BK Ashford 30 Install

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I've been experimenting with E-W loading and that has helped. I can load it in the middle or back E-W and it will slow down the burn quite a bit without turning down the air. So I'm trying about 30lbs of oak tight in the back and drop one or two smallies on the front coals to start it up. Got too eager last night with it barely active and woke up to a cold stove...

It's amazing how much difference loading e-w can make vs n-s, isn't it?

I still think the two 45s are worth a try. Do you think you will be building a chase? That would definitely keep the cold wind off your pipe. Maybe even insulate the chase with some roxul.

Here's a radical solution until you get that baby growed up a little- Apparently, there's an Englander stove on sale at Lowe's for about $700. Pull that Ashford and store it for a few years and put the Englander in for a few. After a few years, try the BK again, and if it works for you then, you can probably sell the Englander for just a couple hundred less than you paid for it. Work on getting some wood to primo dry condition during the three year hiatus.

Yes, tons of hassle moving those big heavy stoves around, but a small investment, and it may get you where you are trying to go.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I was thinking more along the lines of insulating with roxul temporarily. How could I secure it to the pipe? I don't think I'll be doing a chase this winter. I haven't got quotes but guess it would be in the $2K-5k range. With that price I could have replaced my zero clearance fireplace.

I have 1/4 box of coals this morning at 3/4 setting! That feels like success to me! Don't think there was any creo smoke last night.

Also, I do plan to switch to 45's but it has to be at a time when we can cure the new pipe. That won't be fun. We have a bunch of guests coming this weekend.

 

[Dave K]

It's amazing how much difference loading e-w can make vs n-s, isn't it?

I still think the two 45s are worth a try. Do you think you will be building a chase? That would definitely keep the cold wind off your pipe. Maybe even insulate the chase with some roxul.

Here's a radical solution until you get that baby growed up a little- Apparently, there's an Englander stove on sale at Lowe's for about $700. Pull that Ashford and store it for a few years and put the Englander in for a few. After a few years, try the BK again, and if it works for you then, you can probably sell the Englander for just a couple hundred less than you paid for it. Work on getting some wood to primo dry condition during the three year hiatus.

Yes, tons of hassle moving those big heavy stoves around, but a small investment, and it may get you where you are trying to go.

I feel like it would be cheaper for him to just buy eco-bricks for this year and save his current wood for next year.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I feel like it would be cheaper for him to just buy eco-bricks for this year and save his current wood for next year.

Why is that? Cordwood is free. I have 3 cords of good seasoned oak and ash. It's been running great this week with the EW loads. Getting good 8-10hr burns before reloading. Not sure why more people don't do this during shoulder season. 10hr burns with half a load and the glass is completely clean

 

[Dave K]

Why is that? Cordwood is free. I have 3 cords of good seasoned oak and ash. It's been running great this week with the EW loads. Getting good 8-10hr burns before reloading. Not sure why more people don't do this during shoulder season. 10hr burns with half a load and the glass is completely clean

My fault for not reading through the whole thread. I assumed your issue was unseasoned wood. ‍

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

My fault for not reading through the whole thread. I assumed your issue was unseasoned wood. ‍

Oh no problem. Wish it were that simple!

 

[Ashful]

I've been experimenting with E-W loading and that has helped. I can load it in the middle or back E-W and it will slow down the burn quite a bit without turning down the air. So I'm trying about 30lbs of oak tight in the back and drop one or two smallies on the front coals to start it up. Got too eager last night with it barely active and woke up to a cold stove...

How long are your splits? I’ve had issues when my splits get real close to the glass:

1. Getting to light-off takes a lot longer

2. Issues with cat clogging on high burn

3. Occasional smoke smell

It seems I have none of these issues when I keep my splits (always N-S) at 18” or less. Unfortunately, I was sitting on 30 cords of 20” stuff when I got these stoves.

Any success you’re having with loading E-W might be due to keeping the wood farther from the airwash stream, than the actual direction of the wood.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@Ashful

Most of the stuff this year was cut to 17.5". Next year is at 16". I try to stuff it just inside the firebrick but that is the exact "blast furnace" spot.

It is definitely about keeping the wood further from the airwash. When I startup on a full NS load, especially with super dry ash, the stove temp skyrockets to 550°F+. If the air is set below ~90% and it was above 28°F out, the thermostat would snuff out the airflow and kill the draft which emits a lot of creo smell. The first 3" of log would be burned up right when the stat was shutting down and wood was loosing the initial huge heat output. It seems you need a super high draft to be able to keep the flow going in this situation. The white oak is much more controlled and I was able to do some NS loads with it on high and 10°F out.

 

[Ashful]

@Ashful

Most of the stuff this year was cut to 17.5". Next year is at 16". I try to stuff it just inside the firebrick but that is the exact "blast furnace" spot.

It is definitely about keeping the wood further from the airwash. When I startup on a full NS load, especially with super dry ash, the stove temp skyrockets to 550°F+. If the air is set below ~90% and it was above 28°F out, the thermostat would snuff out the airflow and kill the draft which emits a lot of creo smell. The first 3" of log would be burned up right when the stat was shutting down and wood was loosing the initial huge heat output. It seems you need a super high draft to be able to keep the flow going in this situation. The white oak is much more controlled and I was able to do some NS loads with it on high and 10°F out.

I’m not sure if you’ve been reading the BK performance threads, all 2000+ posts per year of them, but draft has been a big topic of conversation in the last 12 - 18 months. I was having some troubles, caused entirely by my too-high draft, which have been solved with the addition of a key damper. A lot of us have found that taming down these tall chimneys with a key damper has solved a few of our issues, and really improved stove performance. So, I’m very surprised to hear you say your stove wants a very strong draft, it’s exactly the opposite of what the rest of us have found.

I keep my draft at 0.05”WC +/- 0.01” on a high burn, constantly monitored via Magnehelic. It climbs above this number, even close to 0.10”WC when I dial down, but the spec in the manual (0.05”WC nominal, 0.06”WC absolute maximum) is on high burn.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Yes I know. If you have a straight up 20ft+ chimney I can see high draft being a problem. Right now I'm getting smoke smell when the stove is warm (stat partially closed) and air setting at 75% or below depending on conditions. My flame will go out if turned around 50% setting (and produce a lot of smoke smell). If full open with a big NS load I seem to get a nice strong draft "blast furnace feel" initially but when the stat starts closing or I turn it down too much it can quickly go to a lower simmer and will start producing smell.

I'd much rather have a high draft situation and lose a little burn time than be getting smoke in the house. As long as I can get a solid 10-12hrs. Would be nice to have a 20+hr burn on low during the warmer days but we'll take it one thing at a time. Sounds like there is a tight draft window for optimal performance.

 

[Ashful]

Yes, the window for optimal performance is fairly tight. No surprise, they’re pushing the state of the art, in the area of max burn time. But I was able to get very good burn times (~24 hours, without even trying) on my massively too-tall chimney, which was pulling 3x the “absolute maximum” value allowed in the BK manual, so that shouldn’t be an issue. My issues with too much draft were plugging the combustor with fly ash, due to the vortex in the firebox, and running hotter than it should on wide-open throttle.

All of us can stall these stoves, on any draft setting. On my Ashford 30’s, the stall point is somewhere between 1 and 2 on the old dial, or roughly 2 o’clock position. The usable range is only maybe 40% of the total available range, for my installs.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Yes, the window for optimal performance is fairly tight. No surprise, they’re pushing the state of the art, in the area of max burn time. But I was able to get very good burn times (~24 hours, without even trying) on my massively too-tall chimney, which was pulling 3x the “absolute maximum” value allowed in the BK manual, so that shouldn’t be an issue. My issues with too much draft were plugging the combustor with fly ash, due to the vortex in the firebox, and running hotter than it should on wide-open throttle.

All of us can stall these stoves, on any draft setting. On my Ashford 30’s, the stall point is somewhere between 1 and 2 on the old dial, or roughly 2 o’clock position. The usable range is only maybe 40% of the total available range, for my installs.

-->But I was able to get very good burn times (~24 hours, without even trying) on my massively too-tall chimney,
That's what I mean. I think it would be very difficult for me to get 12hrs+ without getting smoke smell in my house. It would likely keep burning, just there would be an increasing amount of creo smell and likely some backpuffing in the stove pipe. Possibly if I constantly monitor and update the air setting throughout the burn (every 30min-45min) then I might be able to extend the time a few hours. But no way can I just set it at 50-75% burn setting and leave it for >12hrs without it getting low draft at some point and releasing smoke.

--> All of us can stall these stoves, on any draft setting.
What does that mean exactly? That's kind of what I'm wondering about. Could you start getting smoke exhaust set at 75% with a decent bed of coals? Or if you have a box full of 14% MC ash could yours rocket up to temp and then stall/start emitting smoke once the stat starts cutting the air @ 50-75% setting? It's pretty impossible for me to fill the box and keep it on medium even without it start smelling.

 

[Ashful]

Interesting. One thing I’ve been able to notice, running two stoves, is how much other things going on in the house bear on this creo smell thing. Example, last night I had one stove dialed down for a 24 hour burn, and the other ripping wide-open. This resulted in me getting a creo smell from the one that was dialed down, which is never a problem when I have them both dialed down, or both ripping. I believe the issue is that the one which was ripping wide open was sucking enough air out of the house to change the chimney pressure on the one that was dialed way down.

Similar things could be happening to people with their central boilers, range hoods, dryers, bathroom vents, and other appliances that pull air out of the heated envelope.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

It is too consistent to be related to indoor pressure. When its warm out I often had the windows cracked and it still gave off smell.

 

[AlbergSteve]

I feel your pain. After replacing the door gasket last year, that "seemed" to reduce the smoke smell. But alas, it's back again this winter. It seems to happen when the stove is turned down and we've had some pretty mild temps this year. Last night it got down to -6C so I set the stat to 430-5 o'clock to run a little hotter - this morning got up to the faint smell of smoke again. My next step is to install the OAK and will be ordering a manometer today. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Woody Stover]

other things going on in the house bear on this creo smell thing.

It is too consistent to be related to indoor pressure. When its warm out I often had the windows cracked and it still gave off smell.

replacing the door gasket last year, that "seemed" to reduce the smoke smell. But alas, it's back again this winter. It seems to happen when the stove is turned down and we've had some pretty mild temps this year.

Smoke smell, for me, would trump everything else. No other feature would out-weigh it. If I couldn't fix it, the stove would be out the door. YMMV.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I feel your pain. After replacing the door gasket last year, that "seemed" to reduce the smoke smell. But alas, it's back again this winter. It seems to happen when the stove is turned down and we've had some pretty mild temps this year. Last night it got down to -6C so I set the stat to 430-5 o'clock to run a little hotter - this morning got up to the faint smell of smoke again. My next step is to install the OAK and will be ordering a manometer today. I'll let you know how it goes.

Sorry to hear you have similar issue. What kind of chimney setup do you have? I highly recommend trying the E-W back loading technique and keep it at 75% or so (slightly higher than you do with N-S loading). PM me if you want more details. Also it looks like small and extra dry wood makes the problem worse (at least for me). It causes the stove to get much hotter and close the airflow while it doesn't have enough mass to keep the heat going. Oak has been doing much better. We haven't got that smell in the past two weeks or so, but I haven't attempted a burn >10hrs.

 

[kennyp2339]

No trying to fan the flames here but lighting my cold princess last night I noticed a few things.
When I initially lit the stove I have my by-pass open and key damper opened, the fire started catching and i may have had a 150deg stove top (no where near ready to close the by-pass)
The fire was growing and I could hear a faint whistle coming from the cat probe, I took the cat probe out and there was def a whistle of air rushing in (vacuum) I put the flue probe back into the hold and decided to close down the key damper, I went from a string whistle sucking up into the chimney to believe it or not a few small puffs of smoke coming out where the stove collar adapter meets the dvl, it would literally just puff ever so slightly, and actually some of the smoke would be sucked back into the pipe, this left a very faint smoke smell, but still noticeable if you got near the stove top.
I opened the key damper some and the puffing stopped.
I only saying this because when you lite up your stove you may want to sit by it while its getting started in a darken room with a flash light to see if your experiencing puffing due to a weaker draft.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Smoke smell, for me, would trump everything else. No other feature would out-weigh it. If I couldn't fix it, the stove would be out the door. YMMV.

Yes agreed. If I'm still not able to control the smell by the end of the season I'll probably look at trading it for another stove, despite the hassle. It's been doing fine recently if I'm not too aggressive with the burn times. I'll try a few tricks to get the overnight burn on warmer nights. Will probably look at switching to 45's sometime this winter.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

No trying to fan the flames here but lighting my cold princess last night I noticed a few things.
When I initially lit the stove I have my by-pass open and key damper opened, the fire started catching and i may have had a 150deg stove top (no where near ready to close the by-pass)
The fire was growing and I could hear a faint whistle coming from the cat probe, I took the cat probe out and there was def a whistle of air rushing in (vacuum) I put the flue probe back into the hold and decided to close down the key damper, I went from a string whistle sucking up into the chimney to believe it or not a few small puffs of smoke coming out where the stove collar adapter meets the dvl, it would literally just puff ever so slightly, and actually some of the smoke would be sucked back into the pipe, this left a very faint smoke smell, but still noticeable if you got near the stove top.
I opened the key damper some and the puffing stopped.
I only saying this because when you lite up your stove you may want to sit by it while its getting started in a darken room with a flash light to see if your experiencing puffing due to a weaker draft.

Yes, I'm sure that's what it is. It's fine even during startup, mostly when up to temp and the stat starting to cut the air or otherwise the draft decreasing with a smokey box. You'd have to try the flashlight trick with the damper open, otherwise the cat is burning all the smoke. I even closed the cat probe hole and it must be coming out the flue connector as well. I definitely do not get any sort of whistling from my probe hole. I can hear some air flowing through though. Probably best to get a manometer measurement but I really do not want to put another hole in the pipe.

 

[AlbergSteve]

Sorry to hear you have similar issue. What kind of chimney setup do you have? I highly recommend trying the E-W back loading technique and keep it at 75% or so (slightly higher than you do with N-S loading). PM me if you want more details. Also it looks like small and extra dry wood makes the problem worse (at least for me). It causes the stove to get much hotter and close the airflow while it doesn't have enough mass to keep the heat going. Oak has been doing much better. We haven't got that smell in the past two weeks or so, but I haven't attempted a burn >10hrs.

I've tried loading e-w, it's a pita unless you have nice square or rectangular shaped wood. Otherwise you can't fill the box to capacity, for the long burn times.
Seventeen feet , straight up.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I've tried loading e-w, it's a pita unless you have nice square or rectangular shaped wood. Otherwise you can't fill the box to capacity, for the long burn times.
Seventeen feet , straight up.

Oh I see. I can't load it up without the stove getting above 500°F so backfilling it halfway makes more sense. Also it's convenient because the wood doesn't start smoking until the last log is dropped.

 

[Ashful]

The fire was growing and I could hear a faint whistle coming from the cat probe, I took the cat probe out and there was def a whistle of air rushing in (vacuum) I put the flue probe back into the hold and decided to close down the key damper, I went from a string whistle sucking up into the chimney to believe it or not a few small puffs of smoke coming out where the stove collar adapter meets the dvl, it would literally just puff ever so slightly, and actually some of the smoke would be sucked back into the pipe, this left a very faint smoke smell, but still noticeable if you got near the stove top.
I opened the key damper some and the puffing stopped.
I only saying this because when you lite up your stove you may want to sit by it while its getting started in a darken room with a flash light to see if your experiencing puffing due to a weaker draft.

Interesting observation, but if I recall, didn’t you install the key damper right at the stove collar? This creates a different scenario than those of us with the damper several feet above the stove, and is dramatically different than an open chimney that has lower draft, in terms of pressure vs flow curve.

 

[kennyp2339]

Interesting observation, but if I recall, didn’t you install the key damper right at the stove collar? This creates a different scenario than those of us with the damper several feet above the stove, and is dramatically different than an open chimney that has lower draft, in terms of pressure vs flow curve.

I also did a second damper much higher which has become my primary damper

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I'm starting to get a little bit of smell even on wide open. Was getting a bit on 80% with a larger N-S load. The draft does not seem as good and I'm having trouble keeping it going. I'm pretty sure it is time for a cleaning. We've been spending a lot of time on "inactive" with the warm weather and have put >1 cord through it. Ordering a heavy poly brush, 45's and 18" telescoping pipe. Will probably call the installer in to just seal everything up with Rutland cement as well. Crossing my fingers I can get this thing running clean or else I might have to give up on Blaze King and start shopping around for a different stove next year