2022/23 VC Owner thread

[arnermd]

My overnight burn,

• Key damper full closed
• Heavy bed of black coals, some orange glow, knocked down to load 4 med splits
• Cut air to 0% at cat = 1000
• Another spike at the end of the cat burn, but not as sever as before.
• In the morning opened air to 100% to cook down the coal bed. Still a lot energy there.....

Will try again today with key damper open.....

 

[Diabel]

@arnermd , I would call that a good burn by looking at the data. And a good long burn. Only question now……what is being emitted/showing out the stack during this burn?

 

[Diabel]

@arnermd , I would call that a good burn by looking at the data. And a good long burn. Only question now……what is being emitted/showing out the stack during this burn?

Edit.

Obviously, it was a night burn. Can you report on the stack behaviour while having similar burn during the day.😜

 

[arnermd]

Edit.

Obviously, it was a night burn. Can you report on the stack behaviour while having similar burn during the day.😜

right..... hard to tell smoke from steam during the day.... really hard at night. Lol

Yesterdays 2 burns seemed pretty clean, looked like all steam to me. Data is here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/2022-23-vc-owner-thread.193685/page-30#post-2643608

 

[Eman85]

I'm now convinced my stove likes humidity, as before high humidity still and cat is very controllable.
Anyone wanting to build a stove it would really be nice if the primary air had a real thermostatic control or a control linked to cat temps.

 

[GrumpyDad]

I'm now convinced my stove likes humidity, as before high humidity still and cat is very controllable.
Anyone wanting to build a stove it would really be nice if the primary air had a real thermostatic control or a control linked to cat temps.

Amen Eman! I second that. That's why I bought the damn stove for the 'automatic' controls. IM super not happy about that part of the stove. Once I put that aside though, I've dialed things in about as best as probably could be on my stove sans going down the road of sourcing the best wood species to load alone and not using mixed. It's ALMOST fun to use, as long as I plan on being around all day but not when I have to leave. Which negates this as a viable stove for many folks.
And yes, I would think something linked to cat temps would be VERY optimal, especially if it could take into account stove temperature and try to get you where you want to be as far as heat being produced from the stove, and not worrying about the cat going nuclear. I actually started to think about that a couple of days ago. Can I fashion something that is simple, that would read a temperate and adjust air control for me. If I werent so busy I would have to experiment.

 

[Eman85]

i think VC was on that path with my stove, which is 36 years old. My primary and secondary air controls have thermostatic coils on them. I think my cat has started to get enough burn time to possibly calm down. I can get it very hot and now control it in the 1300 range. This morning I loaded the stove with a hot reload after opening the primary to get the coals real hot. Stove was still in the 600's after overnight burn. After loading and letting the cat get in the 1000's I cut the air back slowly and with the air back it settled about 1350. When I got back home it was cruising in the 1000's.

 

[arnermd]

I'm now convinced my stove likes humidity, as before high humidity still and cat is very controllable.
Anyone wanting to build a stove it would really be nice if the primary air had a real thermostatic control or a control linked to cat temps.

Hmmm.... Humidity is something I had never thought about much, Only possible effect I can think of is draft. High humidity will reduce the density of air and thus give you reduced draft. So if you see better performance with high humidity it would imply your draft is too high..... and it will get worse when the cold weather comes back.....

I would track it and see if the correlation continues. I have been fooled so many times with mine..... I make a change, stove burns great a few times even a week and I think that was it.... next 5 burns will be a disaster.....

Automatic controls: I think what you are describing is the cat temp sensing bimetal thermostat that would close down secondary air, like on the older stoves. I think you have one on your Encore right? Is your point that it does not work very well?

For those of us with newer 2n1 stoves we got no secondary control at all..... per VC, it is supposed to be "self regulating". Apparently it "regulates" to 1600+.....

 

[GrumpyDad]

Hmmm.... Humidity is something I had never thought about much, Only possible effect I can think of is draft. High humidity will reduce the density of air and thus give you reduced draft. So if you see better performance with high humidity it would imply your draft is too high..... and it will get worse when the cold weather comes back.....

I would track it and see if the correlation continues. I have been fooled so many times with mine..... I make a change, stove burns great a few times even a week and I think that was it.... next 5 burns will be a disaster.....

Automatic controls: I think what you are describing is the cat temp sensing bimetal thermostat that would close down secondary air, like on the older stoves. I think you have one on your Encore right? Is your point that it does not work very well?

For those of us with newer 2n1 stoves we got no secondary control at all..... per VC, it is supposed to be "self regulating". Apparently it "regulates" to 1600+.....

That's a feature...
The more I read threads the more I think too much draft can be worse than not enough draft on these stoves.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

My overnight burn,

• Key damper full closed
• Heavy bed of black coals, some orange glow, knocked down to load 4 med splits
• Cut air to 0% at cat = 1000
• Another spike at the end of the cat burn, but not as sever as before.
• In the morning opened air to 100% to cook down the coal bed. Still a lot energy there.....

View attachment 307354

think that this is a quality burn, I do have one question.. I know your trying to avoid the higher cat temps.. To me it seams that you have lowered your starting stove pipe temperature.. I am wondering if you close your air off all the way at 800 to 850 that it would help keep the cat temperature mor reasonable when it peaks during the burn

Also I cant remember, do they make steel cat for your stove.. The steel definitely did not burn as high in my stove as compared to the ceramic.. maybe the combination of a lower starting temp and a steel cat will stop the spiking.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

I'm now convinced my stove likes humidity, as before high humidity still and cat is very controllable.
Anyone wanting to build a stove it would really be nice if the primary air had a real thermostatic control or a control linked to cat temps.

When your have an issue.. what exactly is the cat doing as far as temperature..

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Just did a relight on some burning coals from this morning burn.. the wood was loaded in the stove at 6.30 am... wife dialed it all the way back at 9am.. burned all day.. shes a goid helper..

 

[Eman85]

When your have an issue.. what exactly is the cat doing as far as temperature..

Haven't had any issues of late. Before the cat would take off after appearing to be controlled with the air down. It would be in the 1300's and then run up to 1600. It seems to have stopped, now when it's cut back after being in the 1,000s it will settle at 1300s and stay. But this is a new cat this season so we'll see if it stays like this.
I've been able to reload hot with no problems.
@arnermd I doubt I have high draft as I have a 1 story home with the chimney straight up from the stove, 8" pipe. I did improve draft with DW pipe the first 80" from the stove. The humidity would make the air heavier and slower despite the temps being cold. As I said this cat was new this season and I'm hoping it's become tamed or it seems to be.
My stove has a secondary probe that goes to the cat chamber and on the end of it is a thermostatic coil which controls an air shutter for the secondary. it is slightly open when cold but at probably 4-500 cat temp it closes. The one thing I cannot get a definitive andswer on is it's function beyond that. Mine will heat up and at approx 1600 cat temp the shutter will reopen. Every time I've caught it at that temp the shutter is open and the cat temp is dropping. No one can tell me if that is the purpose of it doing that. Many on this forum have disabled secondary air but the theories are mixed and no real reasons. This field engineering soves seems a lot like what I've seen through the years in automotive. Things like removing electronic ignition and fuel injection because they don't understand it so they must kill it.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Haven't had any issues of late. Before the cat would take off after appearing to be controlled with the air down. It would be in the 1300's and then run up to 1600. It seems to have stopped, now when it's cut back after being in the 1,000s it will settle at 1300s and stay. But this is a new cat this season so we'll see if it stays like this.
I've been able to reload hot with no problems.
@arnermd I doubt I have high draft as I have a 1 story home with the chimney straight up from the stove, 8" pipe. I did improve draft with DW pipe the first 80" from the stove. The humidity would make the air heavier and slower despite the temps being cold. As I said this cat was new this season and I'm hoping it's become tamed or it seems to be.
My stove has a secondary probe that goes to the cat chamber and on the end of it is a thermostatic coil which controls an air shutter for the secondary. it is slightly open when cold but at probably 4-500 cat temp it closes. The one thing I cannot get a definitive andswer on is it's function beyond that. Mine will heat up and at approx 1600 cat temp the shutter will reopen. Every time I've caught it at that temp the shutter is open and the cat temp is dropping. No one can tell me if that is the purpose of it doing that. Many on this forum have disabled secondary air but the theories are mixed and no real reasons. This field engineering soves seems a lot like what I've seen through the years in automotive. Things like removing electronic ignition and fuel injection because they don't understand it so they must kill it.

Even though your a single story, you can overdraft with an 8inch.. Get it hot enough and have it cold outside.. that pipe will pull some air.. dont underestimate the power of the dark side..

 

[arnermd]

I doubt I have high draft as I have a 1 story home with the chimney straight up from the stove, 8" pipe. I did improve draft with DW pipe the first 80" from the stove. The humidity would make the air heavier and slower despite the temps being cold. As I said this cat was new this season and I'm hoping it's become tamed or it seems to be.
My stove has a secondary probe that goes to the cat chamber and on the end of it is a thermostatic coil which controls an air shutter for the secondary. it is slightly open when cold but at probably 4-500 cat temp it closes. The one thing I cannot get a definitive andswer on is it's function beyond that. Mine will heat up and at approx 1600 cat temp the shutter will reopen. Every time I've caught it at that temp the shutter is open and the cat temp is dropping. No one can tell me if that is the purpose of it doing that. Many on this forum have disabled secondary air but the theories are mixed and no real reasons. This field engineering soves seems a lot like what I've seen through the years in automotive. Things like removing electronic ignition and fuel injection because they don't understand it so they must kill it.

• Humid air is less dense than dry air, I know that for a fact. It is a popular misconception that humid air is heavier, because it feels that way to our bodies, but it is not. Water vapor is less dense than air at the same temp and pressure.
• Not saying draft is your issue, it is the only thing I could think of that would be affected by the humidity. I suppose it is possible the rate of combustion might be reduced as the moisture displaces oxygen for a constant volume, but I am guessing that it is pretty small effect. I could be wrong here....
• As we have discussed previously I think it is quite possible that the intended operation of the secondary shutter is to increase airflow as the cat heats up. But I do not know what the design intent is, I am only guessing. For a fixed qty of fuel you can reduce the exhaust gas temp in two ways:
  • Decrease the air flow to limit the amount of oxygen (this will result in burnt fuel in the exhaust stream)
  • Increase air flow to dilute the heat of combustion. This approach seems riskier to me for a wood stove because if you have a lot of fuel (a smokey fire) you will get a lot more heat with the excess air and if some of that excess air promotes the primary burn you get even more smoke..... Could have a compounding effect that results in runaway temps....

 

[arnermd]

think that this is a quality burn, I do have one question.. I know your trying to avoid the higher cat temps.. To me it seams that you have lowered your starting stove pipe temperature.. I am wondering if you close your air off all the way at 800 to 850 that it would help keep the cat temperature mor reasonable when it peaks during the burn

Also I cant remember, do they make steel cat for your stove.. The steel definitely did not burn as high in my stove as compared to the ceramic.. maybe the combination of a lower starting temp and a steel cat will stop the spiking.

Yes I have been intentionally trying to keep the stack temp lower, at your suggestion. I can try lower cat engagement.

Todays burn was a total debacle.... I am not even going to post it.... to embarrassing. I burned off a heavy load of coals from last night and then threw 4 splits on the smaller coal bed. Racked them to the back, cat rocketed to 1000 in about 4-5 min. Closed the air down all the way, cat temps dropped over an hours to about 850, I saw smoke out the chimney, so I bumped air up 25% to get more heat, cat went to 1200. I dialed air down to 0 again. Cat dropped through 800, at 600 I knew something was wrong and I was still getting smoke. Dialed the air up to 50% and had the cat at 1200 - 1400 to finish the load off, no smoke.

Today I had the key damper wide open and it felt like I could not keep the cat lit.... always something....

Letting the stove cool down so I can take a look at refractory and cat tonight.

Steel cat: you guys told me they do make one, I use same cat as the 2040 Encore. Next one I buy will be through Midwest Hearth. I usually buy from Condar, but they only do ceramic in the 1" thick.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Yes I have been intentionally trying to keep the stack temp lower, at your suggestion. I can try lower cat engagement.

Todays burn was a total debacle.... I am not even going to post it.... to embarrassing. I burned off a heavy load of coals from last night and then threw 4 splits on the smaller coal bed. Racked them to the back, cat rocketed to 1000 in about 4-5 min. Closed the air down all the way, cat temps dropped over an hours to about 850, I saw smoke out the chimney, so I bumped air up 25% to get more heat, cat went to 1200. I dialed air down to 0 again. Cat dropped through 800, at 600 I knew something was wrong and I was still getting smoke. Dialed the air up to 50% and had the cat at 1200 - 1400 to finish the load off, no smoke.

Today I had the key damper wide open and it felt like I could not keep the cat lit.... always something....

Letting the stove cool down so I can take a look at refractory and cat tonight.

Steel cat: you guys told me they do make one, I use same cat as the 2040 Encore. Next one I buy will be through Midwest Hearth. I usually buy from Condar, but they only do ceramic in the 1" thick.

Yes the 160 dollar midway hearth.. I like it.. The cat will light off a little quicker..

 

[Woodsplitter67]

So I loaded up the stove for the night at 6.30.pm.. Ill post whats in it at 6am

 

[arnermd]

Yes the 160 dollar midway hearth.. I like it.. The cat will light off a little quicker..

Definitely will be my next cat purchase.

I just inspected the refractory, everything seems to be in order. Cat shows signs of stress, definitely cracking in 2-3 places. Once cell is broken... Frame is warped on the lower back side (what else is new).....

The SS plate behind the fire back shifted right about a 1/2", I was able to gently slide it back into place. got a fresh load warming up....

When you guys start from a cold stove, cat bypassed, can you control the flue gas temps? Mine climbed to 500 with the air full closed griddle was at 400 so I threw in the cat and opened up the air....

 

[gthomas785]

Todays burn was a total debacle.... I am not even going to post it.... to embarrassing. I burned off a heavy load of coals from last night and then threw 4 splits on the smaller coal bed. Racked them to the back, cat rocketed to 1000 in about 4-5 min. Closed the air down all the way, cat temps dropped over an hours to about 850, I saw smoke out the chimney, so I bumped air up 25% to get more heat, cat went to 1200. I dialed air down to 0 again. Cat dropped through 800, at 600 I knew something was wrong and I was still getting smoke. Dialed the air up to 50% and had the cat at 1200 - 1400 to finish the load off, no smoke.

Today I had the key damper wide open and it felt like I could not keep the cat lit.... always something....

It really sounds like you are shutting the primary air too fast and generally fiddling / worrying about it too much.
If I close mine down too fast it will smoke for a while and then clear up as the cat temp climbs back up again.

 

[arnermd]

It really sounds like you are shutting the primary air too fast and generally fiddling / worrying about it too much.
If I close mine down too fast it will smoke for a while and then clear up as the cat temp climbs back up again.

Respectfully..... I fiddle with it when it does bad things, or if I am experimenting..... The cat dropped from 1200 to 600 in 2 hours with plenty of fuel in the tank and smoke showing out the stack. Seems clear to me that it needed more air. I worry about it because it will self destruct, recall I am on my third refractory set in 10 years, would rather not do a full rebuild every three years.

This burn did not smoke for a while, it was smoking for an hour or more as the cat temps were dropping, if cat temps were climbing I would have left it alone.

Just reading this back myself it sounds kind of snarky..... apologies, not my intent.

 

[Eman85]

When you guys start from a cold stove, cat bypassed, can you control the flue gas temps? Mine climbed to 500 with the air full closed griddle was at 400 so I threw in the cat and opened up the air....

Yes, easily. As I've stated before I have run my stove without using a cat for a few years. I can load it to the top on a hot reload and never close the damper. I used to have SW stovepipe and could cut the primary air and watch the magnetic thermometer on the stovepipe drop down and I could keep it 100* cooler than STT checking with the magnetic thermometers and an IR gun. Right now with the magnetic thermometer on the flue adapter just out of the stove it will climb to 500 and keep going if I don't cut the primary, this is with the damper open bypassing the cat.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Respectfully..... I fiddle with it when it does bad things, or if I am experimenting..... The cat dropped from 1200 to 600 in 2 hours with plenty of fuel in the tank and smoke showing out the stack. Seems clear to me that it needed more air. I worry about it because it will self destruct, recall I am on my third refractory set in 10 years, would rather not do a full rebuild every three years.

This burn did not smoke for a while, it was smoking for an hour or more as the cat temps were dropping, if cat temps were climbing I would have left it alone.

Just reading this back myself it sounds kind of snarky..... apologies, not my intent.

we all can get a little snarky... no worries.. snark snark....

 

[Woodsplitter67]

So heres whats in the box after 12 hours.. probably should have had the phone ready and not turned the air up and opened the by pass.. it flared up a little. The picture was taken at 6am.. loaded and air turned down at 6pm last night

 

[arnermd]

So heres whats in the box after 12 hours.. probably should have had the phone ready and not turned the air up and opened the by pass.. it flared up a little. The picture was taken at 6am.. loaded and air turned down at 6pm last night

Hard to tell depth looking down through the griddle. Is the top of the bed just below the loops in the andirons?

And.... are you able to control temps with bypass open? I was heating back up yesterday and just for fun I turned the air all the way down. Temps kept climbing to flue gas = 500, gridle = 400 until I threw in the cat. Is that "normal" behavior?