2022/23 VC Owner thread

[arnermd]

I don't have a probe installed, so no idea. I've read on here that's the secondaries firing. So you think I may be over firing?

I do not know, I have no experience with a dauntless. Just noting that for my stove that sound means high temps are on the way.....

I am not even sure what defines "over-firing" without a cat..... For my stove with a cat I like to see temps <1400 give or take. But that is driven by the recommended operating range for the cat. Without a cat I am not sure what the max temp should be. I would guess the same as with a cat, but that's just a guess...

My suggestion would be to get a secondary temp probe and target the same temps we are all running with a cat, 1200 - 1400 peaks.

 

[arnermd]

So the manual does say that is the sound of over firing.

hahaha.... we are thinking along the same lines....
Obviously I would trust the manual, at least until proven wrong.

I guess my question now is, with no catalyst to get destroyed, how hot can the combustion chamber get before damage is done?

Yeah, good question, I do not know the answer. I think the conservative answer is to target same temps as with a cat. 1200 - 1400 peaks. Sure would be nice if VC would give us a number....

And how do I tell if any damage has been caused?

Open it up and look in there. You want to check for cracks in the refractory or evidence of things moving around, look for any gaps that might have opened up around the joints in the refractory.

I also like to keep an eye on the surface spalling. Spalling is a surface condition, the refractory had a smooth finish when new, as it ages you get pits and the surface gets rough. I suspect this is causes by direct flame impingement, but that is only a theory of mine. If you look in past year threads you should find some pics posted by me that shows the surface of some of my failed refractories.

I am sure some amount of spalling is normal, hard to say how much.... I have never changed out refractory due to spalling, I just keep running it till it cracks or breaks. So just because you have some spalling does not mean it is destroyed. Just something to keep an eye on top qualitatively assess how much "stress" the refractory has seen.

Just my 2 cents.... I am not an expert and I have limited experience. I would be curious to hear what others think.

 

[vernorz]

Thanks, that's a starting place for sure. Has anyone ever measured the temperature off the back of their stove before? I know there are heat shields in the way of the casting, but I'm curious about the temps on the stove behind the combustion chamber now, especially during an over fire.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Thanks, that's a starting place for sure. Has anyone ever measured the temperature off the back of their stove before? I know there are heat shields in the way of the casting, but I'm curious about the temps on the stove behind the combustion chamber now, especially during an over fire.

If your running your stove like that.. Id sweep often, theres no way your getting complete combustion If your wood is just on the ok side of MC this will add to creosote formation.. Your not going to get you chamber to 1200 degrees with out the cat. There is nothing in there to burn the fuel.. I burn sometimes without but rarely cut the air back and never close the damper.. you will get the sound from your stove when draft is high

Dont get me wrong.. your chamber will get hot.. This is just initially.. as soon as you turn your air down things will start to cool.. you not burning as hot, your draft will start to weaken.. this same process happens when a cat dies in the chamber and someones stove stalls.. theres no real difference..

 

[Woodsplitter67]

When over firing.. you will notice fireback deterioration, cracking but mostly pitting and general where.. like your fireback starting to crumble.. its not just going to fall apart.. over time and year after year the fire and heat constantly going through there will take its toll..

constant overfiring will lead to quicker deterioration..

 

[Lorde]

Hey everyone I'm in the process of having a new Encore Cat C 2040 installed. The installer pushed the cat probe (I supplied an Auber probe for them) through the refractory without drilling it first so the penetration is a little messy.
Is this something that could be a problem long term? As I understand it replacement of the refractory in the cat chamber requires a full rebuild. Thanks everyone for your help!

 

[Catesy]

I have the Auber 100 installed in my Dauntless. (still waiting for my cat) I've seen it hit over 1700 when the secondary is roaring, usually just after closing the damper. It comes back down quickly so I imagine the probe is in the flames. I'm starting to get the hang of this thing but the jury's still out weather or not it will be a good heater once the outside temps drop. For now it runs a lot like my old stove when it needed a new combustor.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Hey everyone I'm in the process of having a new Encore Cat C 2040 installed. The installer pushed the cat probe (I supplied an Auber probe for them) through the refractory without drilling it first so the penetration is a little messy.
Is this something that could be a problem long term? As I understand it replacement of the refractory in the cat chamber requires a full rebuild. Thanks everyone for your help!

The 2040 cat c is a pretty good stove.. probably best to take a pic of the back of the refractory to see what it looks like.. just to be safe..

 

[arnermd]

Hey everyone I'm in the process of having a new Encore Cat C 2040 installed. The installer pushed the cat probe (I supplied an Auber probe for them) through the refractory without drilling it first so the penetration is a little messy.
Is this something that could be a problem long term? As I understand it replacement of the refractory in the cat chamber requires a full rebuild. Thanks everyone for your help!

I assume you mean the pentation through the insulation board? Unless it is really ugly I would not worry about it. Those boards warp after a few months any way so they are not flat or tight up against the back of the stove. I suspect it is just there to reflect radiation back to the secondary fire.

 

[arnermd]

I have the Auber 100 installed in my Dauntless. (still waiting for my cat) I've seen it hit over 1700 when the secondary is roaring, usually just after closing the damper. It comes back down quickly so I imagine the probe is in the flames. I'm starting to get the hang of this thing but the jury's still out weather or not it will be a good heater once the outside temps drop. For now it runs a lot like my old stove when it needed a new combustor.

Might try closing your damper earlier.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

The 2040 cat c is a pretty good stove.. probably best to take a pic of the back of the refractory to see what it looks like.. just to be safe..

My Cat C has been running nonstop stop since last Wednesday. This is my one day a week in an office so it has become my clean out day. Finally getting this process dialed in and it has become very enjoyable. Real solid heater. I went through a tank of oil last winter every 5 weeks thermostat at 60. This winter with the stove I've used less than half a tank. House is 68-70 app the time

 

[Lorde]

I assume you mean the pentation through the insulation board? Unless it is really ugly I would not worry about it. Those boards warp after a few months any way so they are not flat or tight up against the back of the stove. I suspect it is just there to reflect radiation back to the secondary fire.

It was the spot the factory cat probe goes through, whatever the material is back there that it penetrates. Everything I read here said to carefully spin a drill bit by hand to make the hole. I handed him the Auber and he just pushed it through into the cat chamber.
He did modify the factory bracket to make it all nice but I couldn't help but think that penetration would degrade over time with all the thermal stress it sees back there.

 

[Lorde]

My Cat C has been running nonstop stop since last Wednesday. This is my one day a week in an office so it has become my clean out day. Finally getting this process dialed in and it has become very enjoyable. Real solid heater. I went through a tank of oil last winter every 5 weeks thermostat at 60. This winter with the stove I've used less than half a tank. House is 68-70 app the time

That is awesome to hear. Excited to get mine going. They brought a lift to do the chimney liner but still couldn't reach, coming back tomorrow to do it hopefully.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Hey everyone I'm in the process of having a new Encore Cat C 2040 installed. The installer pushed the cat probe (I supplied an Auber probe for them) through the refractory without drilling it first so the penetration is a little messy.
Is this something that could be a problem long term? As I understand it replacement of the refractory in the cat chamber requires a full rebuild. Thanks everyone for your help!

As stated above.. please post a picture of what it looks like

 

[Woodsplitter67]

That is awesome to hear. Excited to get mine going. They brought a lift to do the chimney liner but still couldn't reach, coming back tomorrow to do it hopefully.

Make sure you follow the directions and do your break in fires.. probably best to crack some widow's and close Adjacent doors.... You need to make sure the moisture content of your wood is correct 20%MC or less on a freshly split face with pins going with the grain.. Sub par wood will lead you into poor stove performance.

Tell me about you chimney set up.. sounds tall or a steep roof

 

[Catesy]

Might try closing your damper earlier.

When starting a fire from cold, the secondary air fuels the fire and all the heat goes out the top. I've watched the temp on the auber slowly climb to 100 degrees in 15-20 minutes while pipe & stove top climb to normal temps. I don't have the cat yet, but it seems this stove was designed to destroy combustors. 100 to 1600 deg in less than a minute.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

When starting a fire from cold, the secondary air fuels the fire and all the heat goes out the top. I've watched the temp on the auber slowly climb to 100 degrees in 15-20 minutes while pipe & stove top climb to normal temps. I don't have the cat yet, but it seems this stove was designed to destroy combustors. 100 to 1600 deg in less than a minute.

When starting the stove from a cold start.. the PRIMARY air is what is feeding your stove.. secondary air does not come into play untill the bypass is closed and the air is cut back.. What your seeing with the bypass open us your refractory heating up.. this happens on every stove.. on this thread..

Your stove is not made to destroy the catalyst.. you should probably reread your manual for a better understanding of how your stove operates.. The catalyst really doesn't start to work until it hits 600 degrees.. most of us are shooting for 800 to 1200 degrees.. and the catalyst is fine .. runs every day for hours on end..

A catalyst runs into problems for 2 reasons.. 1 thermal shock.. 2 is over firing.. an Overfire is at 1600 degrees and above.. so running at the above mentioned temperatures are optional.. catalyst is running in the premium range and no smoke should be visible from the stack

 

[arnermd]

Todays burn..... Pretty decent I think, but could be better

• Cat temps never really stabilized, but did have 3 solid hours of cat burn. Not a full load.
• Notice again a bit of a temp spike just before the cat temps dropped.
• As cat temps dropped through 400 I took a picture of all the coals in the firebox.
  • This behavior is new since I modified the damper to reduce draft.
  • Thinking the reduced draft is not bringing in enough air to really sustain the coal fire.
• Opened up the air to 50% and got a lot more heat out of the coals.
• Stove has been a lot less ornery lately, not sure if it is due to the cat losing some activity or maybe the wood I am running with.
  • This wood has higher MC than the previous batch (18-20% vs 12-15% before)
  • Newer wood was left on ground for 2-3 years so it is quite a bit lighter than the previous batch.

Suggestions? Comments?

Seasons first batch of baked beans are on the stove..... yummmm.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

most of us are shooting for 800 to 1200 degrees.. and the catalyst is fine

This is the key at least for me. I kept shooting for 1000-1400 and would get cat overfires. Once I figured out that I was getting clean burns 800+ it has become incredibly easier to keep the stove in check and burns longer at more even heat

 

[Catesy]

When starting the stove from a cold start.. the PRIMARY air is what is feeding your stove.. secondary air does not come into play untill the bypass is closed and the air is cut back.. What your seeing with the bypass open us your refractory heating up.. this happens on every stove.. on this thread..

Your stove is not made to destroy the catalyst.. you should probably reread your manual for a better understanding of how your stove operates.. The catalyst really doesn't start to work until it hits 600 degrees.. most of us are shooting for 800 to 1200 degrees.. and the catalyst is fine .. runs every day for hours on end..

A catalyst runs into problems for 2 reasons.. 1 thermal shock.. 2 is over firing.. an Overfire is at 1600 degrees and above.. so running at the above mentioned temperatures are optional.. catalyst is running in the premium range and no smoke should be visible from the stack

What I should have said is both primary and secondary are feeding the stove. I've run a catalytic stove for 30 years. The difference is I no longer have control with the Dauntless. Getting the cat to 600 degrees with the damper open will take hours.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Todays burn..... Pretty decent I think, but could be better

• Cat temps never really stabilized, but did have 3 solid hours of cat burn. Not a full load.
• Notice again a bit of a temp spike just before the cat temps dropped.
• As cat temps dropped through 400 I took a picture of all the coals in the firebox.
  • This behavior is new since I modified the damper to reduce draft.
  • Thinking the reduced draft is not bringing in enough air to really sustain the coal fire.
• Opened up the air to 50% and got a lot more heat out of the coals.
• Stove has been a lot less ornery lately, not sure if it is due to the cat losing some activity or maybe the wood I am running with.
  • This wood has higher MC than the previous batch (18-20% vs 12-15% before)
  • Newer wood was left on ground for 2-3 years so it is quite a bit lighter than the previous batch.

Suggestions? Comments?

Seasons first batch of baked beans are on the stove..... yummmm.
View attachment 307944
View attachment 307945View attachment 307947

For as much draft as you have.. thats a good clean burn.. Your cat tems will spike as your wood offgasses.. flue temps will also go up during this period..

Good burn man.. 2 thumbs up

 

[arnermd]

When starting a fire from cold, the secondary air fuels the fire and all the heat goes out the top. I've watched the temp on the auber slowly climb to 100 degrees in 15-20 minutes while pipe & stove top climb to normal temps. I don't have the cat yet, but it seems this stove was designed to destroy combustors. 100 to 1600 deg in less than a minute.

Agree with @Woodsplitter67 comments.... Mostly primary air is feeding the fire with bypass open.

If you are seeing secondary temps go from 100 to 1600 in 1 min that must be active flames being sucked up and through the secondary.

Couple ideas:

• Close your damper earlier before you have a raging inferno in the firebox.
• Try arranging the wood so it is not right up against the secondary smoke inlet. Make the active flames travel farther.
• May be excessive draft, possibly because your stack is too hot, again close the damper sooner to keep stack temps lower and reduce draft.

Minimal change in the secondary temp with bypass open is normal. Mine barely moves on a cold start till I close the bypass.

What is "normal" STT and stack temp?

Also.... with no cat installed you will have less pressure drop on the secondary side, which means you are sucking more smoke and air when you close the bypass. This may be exacerbating your problem.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

What I should have said is both primary and secondary are feeding the stove. I've run a catalytic stove for 30 years. The difference is I no longer have control with the Dauntless. Getting the cat to 600 degrees with the damper open will take hours.

I think you have to shut the damper down earlier

 

[Woodsplitter67]

What I should have said is both primary and secondary are feeding the stove. I've run a catalytic stove for 30 years. The difference is I no longer have control with the Dauntless. Getting the cat to 600 degrees with the damper open will take hours.

Your damper needs to be closed in order to achieve cat temperatures and catalyst engagement.. you may want to reread your manual..

What model stove are you running

 

[arnermd]

What I should have said is both primary and secondary are feeding the stove. I've run a catalytic stove for 30 years. The difference is I no longer have control with the Dauntless. Getting the cat to 600 degrees with the damper open will take hours.

I think this may be the issue..... you do not need to get the cat to 600 with bypass open. I do not think it is possible. It certinaly is not on my stove.....

On my stove I engage the cat on a cold start when STT = 400 -450. Does not matter what the cat is at.

Check your manual..... My guess is it says close the bypass when STT = 450.

Sounds to me like you are leaving your bypass open too long.....