2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread (Everything BK)

[kf6hap]

Do you find the "smoke" abates at turn-down, after the load char?

 

[Poindexter]

If you have a plume detatched from the stack, you can read smoke opacity between the stack and plume, which has always been zero on my BK with the cat engaged.

Im colder temps, when the steam condenses somewhere inside the top of the stack, the plume will be attached to the stack. In this scenario you have to figger out where in the plume the water droplets freeze and fall to the ground, then read opacity of the remaining smoke just down stream of that boundary.

 

[kf6hap]

Well, I have the "smoke smell" problem again this year with my Ashford 30.1. 17' of 6" pipe. .1" WC at 400F, so draw is great. It produces the "smell" at all firing rates so I don't think it is a matter of draw but I suspect with 2 years of use the creo is slowly moving sideway through the gasket and vaporizing. The door will tear a dollar bill all around before it lets go. I am now thinking a Rutland graphited rope gasket might help here.

The gasket was changed early on in the first year because of "smoke smell:. It did help. I sleeved my 8" pipe down to 6" and that fixed it until now.

Any suggestions?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

The gasket was changed early on in the first year because of "smoke smell:. It did help. I sleeved my 8" pipe down to 6" and that fixed it until now.

Any suggestions?

After so many forum reports of smoke smell with various stoves, in which even changing the stove to a brand new one didn't resolve the problem, I'm beginning to think it's a double wall pipe issue. I'm thinking the top section of dw pipe might create a stronger draft between the inner/outer walls than what exists in the flue itself and draw smoke from the inner extendable section up the space between the inner/outer walls and dump it into the room at the ceiling level where the chimney connector is. Because all the mysterious smoke smell issues I've seen involved double wall.

 

[jetsam]

Well, I have the "smoke smell" problem again this year with my Ashford 30.1. 17' of 6" pipe. .1" WC at 400F, so draw is great. It produces the "smell" at all firing rates so I don't think it is a matter of draw but I suspect with 2 years of use the creo is slowly moving sideway through the gasket and vaporizing. The door will tear a dollar bill all around before it lets go. I am now thinking a Rutland graphited rope gasket might help here.

The gasket was changed early on in the first year because of "smoke smell:. It did help. I sleeved my 8" pipe down to 6" and that fixed it until now.

Any suggestions?

I'd burn a handful of dimensional lumber ends to warm it up, then open the bypass and add some burning incense to the firebox. Walk around and sniff the stove, pipe joints, air entries near the flue, etc.

It's really an unfair test to the stove since draft will be far less than normal, but it might help you sniff out a pipe leak or a place where smoke is getting pulled back into the house.

 

[kf6hap]

Since we have a steady breeze, I rule out smoke re-entry from the outside. The smell is strongest just above the door hinge and latch area-where the creo builds up. Stove flue pipe joints can not leak as the flue is in a vacuum. If you remove a flue probe and hold a flame to the hole the flame sucks into the flue. The whole stove interior is in a vacuum. By withdrawing the cat thermometer and inserting a 1/4" copper line, I can sense the vacuum with a Magnehelic vacuum gauge.

 

[kf6hap]

After so many forum reports of smoke smell with various stoves, in which even changing the stove to a brand new one didn't resolve the problem, I'm beginning to think it's a double wall pipe issue. I'm thinking the top section of dw pipe might create a stronger draft between the inner/outer walls than what exists in the flue itself and draw smoke from the inner extendable section up the space between the inner/outer walls and dump it into the room at the ceiling level where the chimney connector is. Because all the mysterious smoke smell issues I've seen involved double wall.

I don't see how this could be the case as hot air only rises. I don't smell anything at the base of the DW pipe, only just above the door. It is also jammed full of fiberglass rope.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Stove flue pipe joints can not leak as the flue is in a vacuum. If you remove a flue probe and hold a flame to the hole the flame sucks into the flue. The whole stove interior is in a vacuum. By withdrawing the cat thermometer and inserting a 1/4" copper line, I can sense the vacuum with a Magnehelic vacuum gauge.

The flue is not under a vacuum but it should be lower pressure than room air if it's going to function. You could call it a partial vacuum but it's far closer to atmospheric pressure than it is a vacuum. And a partial vacuum can leak, in fact it will leak, into any area with a lower pressure if it has a passage to do so. And I don't think it's much of a stretch to think a double wall pipe could be installed in such a way that it could achieve a lower pressure between the pipe walls than the flue itself, particularly when that flue is dumping into a cold ceramic stack packed with cement.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I don't see how this could be the case as hot air only rises. I don't smell anything at the base of the DW pipe, only just above the door. It is also jammed full of fiberglass rope.

If the fiberglass rope is at the base of the double wall pipe, that could be creating a very low pressure area between the inner and outer walls. Because there will be a lot of very hot air trying to escape out the top, at the chimney connector, and no way to draw in new air at the base, by the flue collar. It might be easier to draw air around the sliding extendable sections.

 

[kf6hap]

I just checked for leakage at the ceiling with flame and nose no leak. The DW pipe at the ceiling is sealed with hi-temp RTV.

If the fiberglass rope is at the base of the double wall pipe, that could be creating a very low pressure area between the inner and outer walls. Because there will be a lot of very hot air trying to escape out the top, at the chimney connector, and no way to draw in new air at the base, by the flue collar. It might be easier to draw air around the sliding extendable sections.

The only place I smell anything is just above the door. It rises to the ceiling and builds up and smells bad. The way I am dealing with now it is I prop the louvers to my "whole house" attic fan and let the smell rise up into the attic so it does not build up. Incidentally, I installed the attic fan many decades ago to clear out the smoke when the old Franklin stove decided to belch out smoke and that was quite often. If you didn't open the front door and windows first, it would suck the fire right out of the stove. The switch for it is 5' up from the floor so the littlin's couldnt cause problems.

 

[Ashful]

Well, I have the "smoke smell" problem again this year with my Ashford 30.1...

Surely a frustrating continuation for you, but I'll bet I'm the only one who doesn't remember anything related to your issues. Got a link to where these started, or care to give us the executive summary? Have you owned other stoves before, and not had this issue, or is this your first?

 

[kf6hap]

I have owned a few stoves before. See the bottom of my entries for the year and models. I noticed the smoke smell not long after installation. The stove company replaced the door gasket and that helped a lot. That tells me it is the door that is leaking. After a long phone discussion with BKVP we came to the conclusion my stack was high enough but was 8" and the stove requires 6", so I placed some cheap 6" single wall from the thimble to the cap and that seemed to get it. Two years later the smell is back. The door gasket will not let go of a dollar bill all around. The gasket looks great. 6" from stove to cap now. 17' of stack. The chamber is at .1" vacuum at 400F flue. Going by charts in the internet this is what I should have at that height/temperature. Wood is 15%.

 

[rdust]

Any suggestions?

What kind of temps are you seeing where you live? Still pretty early in the season to see great drafts. I struggled with my last fire and my stack is near 30'.

 

[kf6hap]

40s, still smells. I guess a new door gasket is the only thing left I can try but this will be the third and it is only 2 years old. Maybe a graphite "creosote resisting" Rutland will do it.

 

[Heftiger]

came to the conclusion my stack was high enough but was 8" and the stove requires 6", so I placed some cheap 6" single wall from the thimble to the cap and that seemed to get it. Two years later the smell is back.

This makes me think it’s a draft issue. What were the outside temps when you fixed it last year? I’d venture a guess that it was colder than it is now. So you fixed the issue last year, but now that it’s warm it’s back. So your draft was poor before the fix. Marginal but good after this fix with cold temps. And now that it’s warm it’s back to marginal.

Just a guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ashful]

There have been two or three (Calentarse, Parallax, etc.) who have had the same issue, and I believe they all had Ashford 30’s. Never heard about this smoke smell from Princesses or Kings, unless it was draft / back-puffing issues.

The others have pretty much concluded it’s the thick gasket. I am not sure if anyone from BK has endorsed this idea, but it’s one I’ve seen the others post. They believe the thick gasket is just soaking up enough creosote, possibly exacerbated by wet wood (but not necessarily so), that it eventually just smells.

There is no way a stove that has good draft is going to leak smoke, unless it is back-puffing. But if the innards of your firebox look anything like mine, a glazed creosote mess after a slow burn, one might think this gasket idea plausible.

 

[SuperJ]

I had a bird (I think) end up in my brand new Ashford 30 this weekend when I was away. My wife (and dog) noticed it Sat. and Sun. but it hasn't made any noise since then. The bypass was closed so whatever it was couldn't drop down into the firebox and is likely stuck in the cat chamber. I'm trying to figure out what I should do.

1. Let er rip, and assume whatever was in there is either out now, or will get incinerated
2. Disconnect the stove pipe and lift to to try and get the animal out the top of the cat chamber?
3. Maybe partly open the bypass and hope if it's still alive that it can climb over the bypass damper and end up in the firebox where I can get it out.
4. Something else?

I think I'm going to try and remember to open the bypass on my stove when it's not in use to avoid trapping animals in the cat chamber.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I had a bird (I think) end up in my brand new Ashford 30 this weekend when I was away. My wife (and dog) noticed it Sat. and Sun. but it hasn't made any noise since then. The bypass was closed so whatever it was couldn't drop down into the firebox and is likely stuck in the cat chamber. I'm trying to figure out what I should do.

1. Let er rip, and assume whatever was in there is either out now, or will get incinerated
2. Disconnect the stove pipe and lift to to try and get the animal out the top of the cat chamber?
3. Maybe partly open the bypass and hope if it's still alive that it can climb over the bypass damper and end up in the firebox where I can get it out.
4. Something else?

I think I'm going to try and remember to open the bypass on my stove when it's not in use to avoid trapping animals in the cat chamber.

It's probably dead by now but I don't see any downside to trying #3 first. If that doesn't produce any results, time to move to #1 or #2.

 

[jetsam]

I had a bird (I think) end up in my brand new Ashford 30 this weekend when I was away. My wife (and dog) noticed it Sat. and Sun. but it hasn't made any noise since then. The bypass was closed so whatever it was couldn't drop down into the firebox and is likely stuck in the cat chamber. I'm trying to figure out what I should do.

1. Let er rip, and assume whatever was in there is either out now, or will get incinerated
2. Disconnect the stove pipe and lift to to try and get the animal out the top of the cat chamber?
3. Maybe partly open the bypass and hope if it's still alive that it can climb over the bypass damper and end up in the firebox where I can get it out.
4. Something else?

I think I'm going to try and remember to open the bypass on my stove when it's not in use to avoid trapping animals in the cat chamber.

Disconnect the stove pipe and look in the top. You need to be able to do this anyway if you are going to sweep bottom-up.

 

[SuperJ]

Disconnect the stove pipe and look in the top. You need to be able to do this anyway if you are going to sweep bottom-up.

Ok will do, I'll wait until my wife is out of the house later today. She is scared some bird or bat is going to come flying out and flutter around the house.

 

[kf6hap]

I am thinking annual, or every other year gasket replacement is probably the fix. The gasket that came with the stove produced smell within a month. I wonder if the door is-ever-so-slightly warping when hot. You can't do the dollar bill test hot, though. So far as I know, the smoke smell problem is only with the Ashford's and the door casting is not the same as other stoves.

I do notice when burning the corners, especially the hinge corner, has little whirl winds of flames. I wonder if the windage could be blowing the creosote(?)/smoke laterally through the gasket.

My original theory was creosote is moving laterally through the gasket and re-vaporizing causing the smell.

 

[begreen]

I am thinking annual, or every other year gasket replacement is probably the fix. The gasket that came with the stove produced smell within a month. I wonder if the door is-ever-so-slightly warping when hot. You can't do the dollar bill test hot, though. So far as I know, the smoke smell problem is only with the Ashford's and the door casting is not the same as other stoves.

I do notice when burning the corners, especially the hinge corner, has little whirl winds of flames. I wonder if the windage could be blowing the creosote(?)/smoke laterally through the gasket.

My original theory was creosote is moving laterally through the gasket and re-vaporizing causing the smell.

If there is leakage you may be able to spot it by turning down the room lights and then shining a bright, narrow beam of light across the suspect area(s). Replacing a gasket once a year should be unnecessary. The door flatness can be checked with a good straight edge.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I wonder if the door is-ever-so-slightly warping when hot. You can't do the dollar bill test hot, though. So far as I know, the smoke smell problem is only with the Ashford's and the door casting is not the same as other stoves.

You should be able to do the dollar bill test hot, just don't dilly-dally too much! And if I thought the door was warping when heated, I would definitely check it out!

If you're concerned about your dollar bill burning up, just fireproof it first:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ead-everything-bk.162287/page-24#post-2193476

 

[Highbeam]

There have been two or three (Calentarse, Parallax, etc.) who have had the same issue, and I believe they all had Ashford 30’s. Never heard about this smoke smell from Princesses or Kings, unless it was draft / back-puffing issues.

The others have pretty much concluded it’s the thick gasket. I am not sure if anyone from BK has endorsed this idea, but it’s one I’ve seen the others post. They believe the thick gasket is just soaking up enough creosote, possibly exacerbated by wet wood (but not necessarily so), that it eventually just smells.

There is no way a stove that has good draft is going to leak smoke, unless it is back-puffing. But if the innards of your firebox look anything like mine, a glazed creosote mess after a slow burn, one might think this gasket idea plausible.

The new 30 boxes have much better/different airwashes than the old princess/king. We don't have many members with 30 boxes other than ashfords. I wonder if whatever makes the airwash more effective also makes the gasket more prone to leakage of odors.

Draft is a funny thing. The same chimney at my house would suck the doors shut on my old hearthstone but allows smoke spillage if I open the door of my princess. I think there are varying pressures and currents within the firebox and cannot conclude that just because the flue is under a negative pressure that all parts of the firebox are under negative pressure. There is an expansive ball of burning fuel in there after all!

Oh and you do NOT need to remove the flue to clean bottom up on a princess. It's easier if you do but not required. I've done it both ways for testing. Not sure about the 30 boxes though. I'm not lucky enough to have one of those beauties yet!

 

[kf6hap]

I did try to see the leakage in dim lighting with strong LED flashlights and even a UV light but I see no smoke at all. This is why I call it "smoke smell". I suspect the creosote is re-vaporizing and doing so invisibly. The smell gets quite strong with time as it builds up. I also see bits of ash fidgeting about in the corners above the bricks a lot more than in the center of the window. Make-up (combustion/window wash) air causes this.

As for draft: it is good. The measurement of air pressure is in water column inches. I did these measurements extensively in the HVAC industry. Mine is .1" @400F. This is correct for my setup. Just how a chamber "leaks" out smoke under a vacuum is a mystery. The only forces (I can think of) that might overcome the vacuum are capillary action and/or windage within the combustion chamber. It is a mystery.