Where to start

[jasonh]

BoiledOver, I'll answer you paragraph by paragraph.

My last couple years gas bills will be skewed a bit because I also burned wood in my wood stove so I can only assume what it would be with the gas readings.

The guy with the 80 won't email me back so I'm pretty much going to write him off.

There's a propane supplier not too far from me. Just haven't had time to stop there yet. I seen a bunch of tanks in their yard.

I have a 26x34 garage that was built to house an RV. There is a loft above where I plan to put the system. I'll probably have to raise that, but that's not really a problem. I'm calling the insurance guy tomorrow.

So I should just stop planning a boiler system because it's expensive, dusty and I'm blessed to have NG in my area? I should just continue to burn NG day after day and have a $500/month gas bill in the winter? Ya gas is cheap now but what about next year or the year after? My wood stove cost $2800. I guess I shouldn't have bought it and just burned gas. If this paragraph seems a little pissy.....well it is a little. I'm a bit sensitive about getting heat because I have NG and not oil or propane. I just talked with my dad today and his OWB saved him atleast $800 a year for the past 6 years. He has NG too. Ok enough of that.

I've been reading alot on here for a couple years now. Here's the problem I see on this site. There is so much good information that it's hard to get a good grasp on what I would need for my application. It's a good problem to have but still overwhelming and a bit confusing. I'll read one thread and think I'm on my way then realize it might not work because every situation is different. So I started a thread and ask questions relating to my situation. This site has been way more helpful than I would have ever realized from buying my wood stove to this new adventure.

All in all thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread, stickies and other threads to help others develop their own systems.

 

[jasonh]

Another thing, if you open the secondary door during its burning cycle, expect everything inside the (now a boiler building) to be covered with fly ash. Spring cleaning involves fans, brooms, a compressor and a respirator. It's tough to resist a peak at that blue flame in the first year. And of course everything will smell of smoke. Insurance issues no matter where it is placed or which model.

That's not universally applicable to all boilers.

I think the biomass has a site hole. Atleast in the picture it seems like there's one. Maybe not.

 

[woodsmaster]

Well I also found a 2 year old eko 80 for about the same price as the biomass 40. I'm sure the 80 would have no problem heating 1k of storage.

I know someone who may be interested in the EKO 80 if you don't buy it.

 

[maple1]

I think the biomass has a site hole. Atleast in the picture it seems like there's one. Maybe not.

There is also a difference between forced draft boilers & induced draft boilers. Induced draft makes smoke spillage a rare event. My boiler is in my basement and I don't have any 'dirty' issues - no ash or no smoke smell.

Not to cloud you even more...

 

[jasonh]

There is also a difference between forced draft boilers & induced draft boilers. Induced draft makes smoke spillage a rare event. My boiler is in my basement and I don't have any 'dirty' issues - no ash or no smoke smell.



Not to cloud you even more...

Well it is what it is. I don't plan on looking in there after its tuned. As long as it's being efficient as possible and making heat I'll be happy.

 

[stee6043]

I don't think these things are nearly as intimidating as BoiledOver may have suggested. My tanks sit neatly on a 4'x10' piece of floor space, fully insulated, and my boiler takes up another 3 feet or so off one end. You can configure these systems to fit in a lot of places.

My setup is in my basement...and nothing in my home smells like smoke, never has. The stinky boiler myth is pure urban legend unless you pay zero attention to how it's run and how your door seals are adjusted.

The best piece of advice I think you're going to get in this thread (in my opinion, ha) is to sketch up a diagram of what you think your system should look like based on what you know now and post it here in a new thread. You'll got loads of directly applicable feedback that way. Iterate the sketch, repost, repeat. Eventually you'll find a system design that pleases the boiler gods and meets your needs.

 

[jasonh]

I don't think these things are nearly as intimidating as BoiledOver may have suggested. My tanks sit neatly on a 4'x10' piece of floor space, fully insulated, and my boiler takes up another 3 feet or so off one end. You can configure these systems to fit in a lot of places.

My setup is in my basement...and nothing in my home smells like smoke, never has. The stinky boiler myth is pure urban legend unless you pay zero attention to how it's run and how your door seals are adjusted.

The best piece of advice I think you're going to get in this thread (in my opinion, ha) is to sketch up a diagram of what you think your system should look like based on what you know now and post it here in a new thread. You'll got loads of directly applicable feedback that way. Iterate the sketch, repost, repeat. Eventually you'll find a system design that pleases the boiler gods and meets your needs.

I didn't think it would be stee. It's like anything else. Find a routine, burn dry wood and adjust as necessary. I see alot of guys run these in their basement. I'm sure there would be some pretty mad other halves if there was smoke plumes coming from the basement.

I'll have to figure one out and post and see what the more knowledgable say. Could I plumb it directly into the gas boiler? Or would it be better a different way? I guess I should draw it up first then I'll get my answers.

 

[jasonh]

This is what I think my system would be like. Let me know if the file won't open and I'll try again. Still figuring this site out on my phone.
The only thing I see different is the thermostatic valve would be back at the boiler. If the file opens, could you put a bypass at the dotted lines for the summer dhw? Obviously it would be between the heat exchanger and pump. That way in the summer the hot water tank would be heated but not the boiler.

Edit: To the right of the pump on the existing boiler, my boiler has a manifold for the 3 zones for the baseboard. That's another difference I see.

 

[stee6043]

This is what I think my system would be like. Let me know if the file won't open and I'll try again. Still figuring this site out on my phone.
The only thing I see different is the thermostatic valve would be back at the boiler. If the file opens, could you put a bypass at the dotted lines for the summer dhw? Obviously it would be between the heat exchanger and pump. That way in the summer the hot water tank would be heated but not the boiler.

Edit: To the right of the pump on the existing boiler, my boiler has a manifold for the 3 zones for the baseboard. That's another difference I see.

In this application you'd indeed need two "thermostatic" valves. Your DHW heater would need one on the potable line (which is pictured) to ensure you don't send 180+ degree water throughout the house. The second would be a thermic/mixing valve (like a Danfoss) that would be installed on your boiler to keep it at 140 or above during operation. Two very different functions, both required.

You can bypass/valve just about anything as you customize the layout to meet your needs. One thing you'll want to pay attention to is induced flow in lines that aren't being used but are still connected. An easy answer for this problem (most of the time) is to buy pumps with built-in check valves. Most have this option. They can be moderately useful.

 

[maple1]

Another thing is that that diagram is for an open boiler, and therefore uses a heat exchanger between the boiler & rest of the system. I think the boilers you have mentioned are all closed (pressurized), so that heat exchanger might not be needed and close Ts could be used instead. Another time when exchangers get used is if part of the system (like the part that is outside the house) will have antifreeze in it.

 

[jasonh]

In this application you'd indeed need two "thermostatic" valves. Your DHW heater would need one on the potable line (which is pictured) to ensure you don't send 180+ degree water throughout the house. The second would be a thermic/mixing valve (like a Danfoss) that would be installed on your boiler to keep it at 140 or above during operation. Two very different functions, both required.

You can bypass/valve just about anything as you customize the layout to meet your needs. One thing you'll want to pay attention to is induced flow in lines that aren't being used but are still connected. An easy answer for this problem (most of the time) is to buy pumps with built-in check valves. Most have this option. They can be moderately useful.

So a Laddomat at the boiler would function as a pump and mixing valve at the boiler correct? And then another thermostatic valve pretty much were it sits in the picture.

 

[jasonh]

Maple, here's another one I first was thinking of. I think, yesterday, I was thinking about closing off the boiler in summer. I don't know that was yesterday. This was my original thought about plumbing it in.

 

[maple1]

Something like that might be in the ballpark. The thermostatic valve at bottom left should go at the wood boiler, just outside the boiler return inlet, between the boiler & storage. It could either be a thermostatic valve (like a Danfoss or the like) with its own separate pump between it & the boiler pulling through the valve, or a loading unit which has a pump built in/attached. The sole purpose of that pump in either case it to pull hot water out of the boiler when it is burning, and move it to storage. When not burning, it shuts off. Then you would need another pump to move the heat from boiler-storage, to the rest of your system.

(That diagram is also an open system, I think - so doesn't show other things needed like relief valves, fresh feed components, and expansion tanks).

 

[jasonh]

Something like that might be in the ballpark. The thermostatic valve at bottom left should go at the wood boiler, just outside the boiler return inlet, between the boiler & storage. It could either be a thermostatic valve (like a Danfoss or the like) with its own separate pump between it & the boiler pulling through the valve, or a loading unit which has a pump built in/attached. The sole purpose of that pump in either case it to pull hot water out of the boiler when it is burning, and move it to storage. When not burning, it shuts off. Then you would need another pump to move the heat from boiler-storage, to the rest of your system.

(That diagram is also an open system, I think - so doesn't show other things needed like relief valves, fresh feed components, and expansion tanks).

It probably is maple. It's from the central boiler website. I found it years ago. I don't think they have pressurized units. Buts that's basically what I want to do.

 

[jasonh]

And now tarm wants to sell their bonus plus for $3500. These people are killing me.

 

[maple1]

What's a bonus plus?

 

[jasonh]

100,000 btu boiler. No frills. I seen an ad on this site at the bottom. I believe I seen they came out last year. Kinda odd to have a clearance sale at the beginning of the heating system.

 

[maple1]

Dang, that sounds like a good price for a new Tarm gasser. It is smallish though. First time I've seen that one.

 

[jasonh]

That's an awesome price for a brand new one.

Nofossil makes it happen with a 25k boiler and 800 gallons of storage.

Probably could do the same with that tarm.

 

[maple1]

Looking at the specs on it. And comparing with mine.

The lit for mine specs a firebox size of around 4.4 cu.ft. But when I actually measured the useable space, I came up with a bit over 3. Very close to that Tarm spec. There is a baffle at the top of mine that I think takes up some of the useable volume. (I also might not have measured super accurate). Plus I rarely fill it as full as I can. During the coldest days of the winter, I might do 2 reloads, at most. (e.g. light at 4pm, reload at 7-8pm, and again on way to bed at 10-11pm). Usually the last one is only half a load. So I am pretty sure you could make that boiler work for you with a decent storage volume. The thing that stands out the most is it requires shorter wood, which may or may not be an issue - and I actually cut mine a bit shorter than my boiler will take, or try to, so that two rows on a pallet will fit through my basement door without struggling to make the turn through it (I aim for 18" long, try not to go longer than 20" max). So long story short, I don't see a lot of difference in capabilities between that Tarm, and mine - or maybe more accurately, mine the way I am using it.

More pluses - Tarm is a very good name that has been around a very long time (likely the longest in all reality), and it is induced draft. Which means much cleaner operation with much less chance of smoke & ash spillage issues. And the support is top notch from what I have read.

I'd find it pretty darn hard to pass up that deal if I was looking to buy.

 

[jasonh]

Maple, I agree it is similar and a good deal. However I'm just kinda stuck on why a 3k discount at the start of heating system? Are they discontinuing it? It's only been out for a little over a year. Do they just want to move merchandise? The quandary is it is an excellent company that has a long history of good products.

The brochure did say the minimum-ideal storage is 300-600 gallons. I think it said the max heat load was 50k. That's about what my house is at 0*. Not counting dhw. But like I posted before, nofossil makes it happen with a 25 and 800 gallons.

 

[maple1]

Might be a demo? I would check it out more fully with them.

 

[jasonh]

Ya I think I might for that price. The little ad above the reply box says it's 102k.

 

[BoiledOver]

Is that the same unit with a list price of $5999? I thought Eko 25 delivered for $4000 was a good price when I purchased. If the bonus plus was available for $3500 then, I might very well have gone in that direction. And, it has reversible doors too.

And now tarm wants to sell their bonus plus for $3500. These people are killing me.

 

[jasonh]

Is that the same unit with a list price of $5999? I thought Eko 25 delivered for $4000 was a good price when I purchased. If the bonus plus was available for $3500 then, I might very well have gone in that direction. And, it has reversible doors too.

If you do the math from the little ad it's $6185 plus $150 for shipping. I know they were over 6k last year when I looked at the tarm page. Quite a savings on it this year.