DIYing a masonry heater in a circa 1880s home

[EatenByLimestone]

I don’t think it’s wise to start a project like a masonry heater where you’ll be locked into a set btu output until you know what kind of energy you’ll need to heat the house. If it’s uninsulated, I think you’re looking at a very high number, even if you’re in a warmish area like CT. With the age and size, I’m picturing a Victorian house?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

What is the output of your minisplits? They probably did some sort of heat loss calculation for them.

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

What is the output of your minisplits? They probably did some sort of heat loss calculation for them.

We don't have minisplits. It is a heat pump that is connected to a water tank, and the water is cycled to many radiators in the house. I noted in another reply that our electric usage is 500Kw to 1.2Mw between April and June last year depending on A/C usage (the heat pump also cools, and we use a window A/C unit if it gets too warm/humid in the bedroom.) and it climbed to 5-6Mw in December-February with the heat pump, a few baseboard heaters, and some plug in heaters in certain rooms in the house.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Ok. How many btu is your heat pump?

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

I don’t think it’s wise to start a project like a masonry heater where you’ll be locked into a set btu output until you know what kind of energy you’ll need to heat the house. If it’s uninsulated, I think you’re looking at a very high number, even if you’re in a warmish area like CT. With the age and size, I’m picturing a Victorian house?

It isn't a victorian, nor a farmhouse. The first floor has a living room, dining room and den in the front half, and the kitchen, sunroom, laundry room and a full bathroom in the back. Second floor has 3 bedrooms, a large closet off of the hallway, and a bathroom over the front half of downstairs, and one large room in the back with a vaulted ceiling (which could be a family room, but it will be my all-in-one office, craft room, reading nook, yoga space and where I will keep my hydroponic garden.) Luckily, I don't easily freeze, so I can keep that at a lower temperature than the rest of the house... and the cats aren't allowed in there, so the door will always remain closed.
There are radiators in the bedrooms, the front foyer, living room, dining room and kitchen. The den will have one installed as soon as the heating company who installed the system comes back. The sunroom and laundry room have baseboard heaters. The bathrooms have small plug in heaters that either run when we are in there or run on low when it gets really cold and the plumbing lines need protected. And I have one electric heater in the basement (which gets really cold, and has all of our plumbing, including the heat pump's lines) placed near the heat pump central board.
DIYing the 15-16' MH will heat both the basement (keeping it above freezing) and the first floor to take the edge off. I'm not looking to get the house above 72-73 degrees, even though my husband would like it warmer. (He's finally learning to layer. Meanwhile, I normally am wearing a tank top and shorts, because I usually don't feel cold. And if I do, I know how to layer, and have extra blankets around. )

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

Ok. How many btu is your heat pump?

I looked it up.......heating - 4.75 Tons Heating (56.98 kBtu/h). Cooling - 3.5 Tons Cooling (41.29 kBtu) IPLV.IP EER 21.18 kBtu/kw. A total of 8 radiators attached to the system. Brand is Chiltrix.

 

[stoveliker]

I suggest that insulating and air sealing should be the priority for your dollars and work hours.

You'll still be burning cords and cords of wood with that heat demand. Do you know the work involved in 5 cords of wood? And then the first year times three to get three years ahead si you have dry wood to burn?

First is the attic; heat goes up
Go there,.lift the insulation there is, spray foam all penetrations and along all top plates of the walls, internal and external. Silicone around electric penetrations.
Then put the insulation back and spend 1k$ on R38 batts to put in top, at 90 degrees.

I did that and it cut my heating needs in half.

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

I suggest that insulating and air sealing should be the priority for your dollars and work hours.

You'll still be burning cords and cords of wood with that heat demand. Do you know the work involved in 5 cords of wood? And then the first year times three to get three years ahead si you have dry wood to burn?

First is the attic; heat goes up
Go there,.lift the insulation there is, spray foam all penetrations and along all top plates of the walls, internal and external. Silicone around electric penetrations.
Then put the insulation back and spend 1k$ on R38 batts to put in top, at 90 degrees.

I did that and it cut my heating needs in half.

We had an energy assessment done 2 years ago. They sealed up the stairwell, recommended replacement of the exterior doors ( which we did) and a few other items.
We did lay down a new layer of insulation over the original insulation our first winter.
We had the roof redone, and plan to take out all of the insulation later this year. There was mold up there and in the basement, when we bought the place....so all the insulation will be thrown out via a dumpster, treat all the surfaces (I've done this before), and lay down new insulation with a high R value. We also want to lay plywood down to use it as storage....after the hallway hatch access is replaced with a drop down ladder/steps. So that is already in the plan. Thanks

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Agree with above. Fix the house or you’ll end up hating the heating season.

 

[EbS-P]

True. I am mainly concerned with the first floor, a bit less than 1000 sf....where the kitchen, laundry room and one full bath are, as well as the open living spaces. (We keep the doors for the rooms upstairs closed as well as the downstairs' sunroom and den, but I may keep the upstairs bathroom open if we have no power/no other source of heat to protect the plumbing there.)
We currently feel the cold air from the basement seeping up through the floor, so having the masonry heater in the basement and extending to the living/dining room would take care of 2 issues. And if I backpedal to a woodstove in the living/dining room, we need to have something in the basement as well. (We've talked of putting the other woodstove down there, and even getting a pellet stove, just to protect the water lines for plumbing and the heat pump.)

Cold air only comes up from the basement if you are loosing hot air higher up in the house. We have a finished basement that includes a converted two car garage. Fireplace with insert down there 1300 sq ft. Upstairs fireplace with a woodstove. 2000 sq ft. Not a chance we could heat solely from the basement given our layout.

Air sealing and insulation.

It’s nice to be able to control the temp of those spaces separately. We have forced hot air via heatpump. My perfect solution would be a wood furnace. Given my layout that just won’t happen for me.


How many kWh was on your bill? It’s been cold. My dad hit 3000 kWh last month.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, don't put insulation down before you air seal.

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

Cold air only comes up from the basement if you are loosing hot air higher up in the house. We have a finished basement that includes a converted two car garage. Fireplace with insert down there 1300 sq ft. Upstairs fireplace with a woodstove. 2000 sq ft. Not a chance we could heat solely from the basement given our layout.

Air sealing and insulation.

It’s nice to be able to control the temp of those spaces separately. We have forced hot air via heatpump. My perfect solution would be a wood furnace. Given my layout that just won’t happen for me.


How many kWh was on your bill? It’s been cold. My dad hit 3000 kWh last month.

We doubled that...5-6Mw for each of the last 2 electric bills.
We know the dining room's exterior wall and the living room's side and front exterior walls need to be taken down to studs and redone. But we won't be able to consider that until next year as those rooms currently have kitchen and den stuff moved in there for those rooms to be stripped and redone.
When those are done, the only exterior walls remaining to be redone on the first floor will be in the sunroom. We keep that door closed, though there is a pet door with a flap in it as the cats' food and water and the litter boxes are in that area.

 

[stoveliker]

The point is that even with a masonry heater you'll be needing far more BTUs than necessary.

Instead of diy-ing a solution that may work and will be far too much once you do tighten up the house, or that won't be enough now (so why put in the effort), spend the diy hours and dollars on decreasing the need for BTUs.
The attic is a big one and one that you can do completely yourself.
Then when it's warmer out, do those walls.

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

The point is that even with a masonry heater you'll be needing far more BTUs than necessary.

Instead of diy-ing a solution that may work and will be far too much once you do tighten up the house, or that won't be enough now (so why put in the effort), spend the diy hours and dollars on decreasing the need for BTUs.
The attic is a big one and one that you can do completely yourself.
Then when it's warmer out, do those walls.

Actually, the point is that we can't take care of the attic until we finish what is already under construction on the first and second floors.

So, the attic will be taken care of in the late spring/early summer, after the attic drop down stairs are installed.

I am hoping to have a secondary heat source in action before next December to (a) make sure we have heat if we lose power in future winters and (b) so I don't have to hear my husband complain of how cold the house is every damned day. (That conversation happened again a few hours ago before he went out to a concert with friends.)

We both work FT, money is getting tight, and we can't do the attic and the dining and living room walls this year...we won't have the downstairs unpacked and put together after the renovation until August most likely. We've been under construction for 2 years, and taking down more walls will wait until 2026.

 

[stoveliker]

Okay. Then going ahead with a large project, including hiring an engineer, for a fix that is, if sufficient, going to be needed only temporarily (a few years with your planning) appears it's worth it to you.

I would instead buy the largest Drolet (cheap but solid quality) wood stove and install that.

Going to be way faster and give more heat. And most likely far cheaper too. (See engineer and foundation issues.)

 

[EbS-P]

The house had a wood heat. It’s 4-6 hour project to pull a liner (if it’s a straight shot) and install a wood stove. It sounds like time is a limiting factor. Have you just considered installing a wood stove while the other projects are underway?

Something like this???
https://www.englander-stoves.com/us/en/heaters/wood-stoves/esw0008/
Or a Drolet. Minimum 2.4 cu ft.

Do you have wood? Most hard woods need to sit split and stacked for a minimum of 2 years to dry properly. I can say with some certainty anything you stack now will not be ready to burn next winter. (Pine might be the only exception).
You can’t heat well with wet wood. Compressed Sawdust logs/bricks are an option.

Now that I’ve said that wood heat is not really an option (unless you build a solar kiln) until the winter of 26/27. MH is possible by then? (Maybe wood stove isn’t a good idea)

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

Okay. Then going ahead with a large project, including hiring an engineer, for a fix that is, if sufficient, going to be needed only temporarily (a few years with your planning) appears it's worth it to you.

I would instead buy the largest Drolet (cheap but solid quality) wood stove and install that.

Going to be way faster and give more heat. And most likely far cheaper too. (See engineer and foundation issues.)

Thanks, I'll look those up, too.
What do you mean that the MH would be needed on a temporary basis? This would be a long term secondary heat source in our forever home. We might have 5 years left, or 25+....but I wouldn't call either a masonry heater or a long burning woodstove a temporary need.

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

The house had a wood heat. It’s 4-6 hour project to pull a liner (if it’s a straight shot) and install a wood stove. It sounds like time is a limiting factor. Have you just considered installing a wood stove while the other projects are underway?

Something like this???
https://www.englander-stoves.com/us/en/heaters/wood-stoves/esw0008/
Or a Drolet. Minimum 2.4 cu ft.

Do you have wood? Most hard woods need to sit split and stacked for a minimum of 2 years to dry properly. I can say with some certainty anything you stack now will not be ready to burn next winter. (Pine might be the only exception).
You can’t heat well with wet wood. Compressed Sawdust logs/bricks are an option.

Now that I’ve said that wood heat is not really an option (unless you build a solar kiln) until the winter of 26/27. MH is possible by then? (Maybe wood stove isn’t a good idea)

Thanks for mentioning the solar kiln. I haven't heard of those before, but that might be a project for this or next year. (Fitting that around the house interior, the attic reinsulation, the secondary heat, the off grid solar project to increase our solar output, and the wind project (with small wind turbines) is going to give me a very full year. LOL)
The chimney next to the small woodstove (I have to look it up, but I am 99% certain it doesn't have a long burn time) was used for the oil boiler, so it does need to be relined for anything we decide to use.
I am willing to consider MH or long burning woodstoves (which seem to run 2-3k so far.) I do not want to buy one with a short burn, or use the woodstove we have, as he won't be happy needing to load it every few hours, and then wake up to a cold living space, no matter what he says now. I just need something that will take care of 1,000sf or more in case we lose power (so our water lines don't freeze), and that we could run if we want more heat, assuming we have the wood to burn. (My husband would probably live on the couch in the living room if it is anywhere near the woodstove heat. I might be there too, but it doesn't have the same soothing therapy that leaning against warm bricks has, and I would have to worry about the cats (or future dogs) getting burned by the woodstove, but not the MH. So, I have to think about that, too.
There was some wood that was left outside for the working woodstove (in the kitchen, at the second chimney) when we bought the house, but it was exposed to the elements, so it has gotten wet from rain and snow. I have mentioned to my husband that we should put wood in a holder on the covered front porch, but he said it would look ghetto. (start my eye rolls) We redesigned the kitchen (moved all of the appliances to the opposite corner, taking out the second stairwell and moving the laundry machines from the kitchen to the new closed in patio), so a woodstove cannot be installed there anymore.
I know we would have to start gathering and/or buying seasoned wood to dry over time, but the first winter (starting this Nov/Dec) would depend on purchasing it. And I see a lot of signs within 15 minutes of us. (We're in a rural area.)
If we can stop using these mega expensive plug in heaters, so our winter electric bills don't go over 1k (the most recent is $1800), it would be better all around...he wouldn't be as grumpy from being cold, and it would be easier on our wallets, I think. (I have to price buying wood to make sure I'm not getting into another issue.) We own a few acres, and I would estimate half of it is wooded. So, we could find some felled trees to cut, and possibly decide to thin the woods a bit. (Wish we could burn dried bamboo...we have plenty of that. LOL)

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Most of the time a firewood seller’s idea of what “seasoned” means and your idea are going to be 2 different things.

Cats and dogs tend to like the warmth of a woodstove, but understand the concept of hot. I wouldn’t worry about them and a woodstove.

 

[EngTechnow]

My concern is that I am looking for a functional heater that isn't electrical. We are both in our mid 50s (this is our 'forever home'), and I would rather know that we need to load the masonry heater 1-2 times a day, and it would emanate the heat for hours. If we used the new(?) woodstove that is currently sitting in that space, my understanding is that it would constantly need to be fed, and would only heat a portion of the living/dining room.

I didn't Catch We You Live as Far as Type of Winters etc. & Wind Loading = Chill . . On Home ?

I have seen one that a 50 yr Mason did for His second Hot Wife - Thing was Massive & He Placed It Smack Dab in Middle of Basement..
Must have been ( Min. 4 Tons ) just there - Not Counting what went Up into Home & Home has 10ft Basement with Crane Dropped Concrete Slabs onto Basement , Reinforced Slabs that Fit ( Tongue & Groove ) with 5" Holes Running Length of those . .
Basement @ 42' Steel Support Beam on Steel Both Sides of this Massive Masonry Mountain ..
His Agent - Informed Me that Once that Item gets Hot from a 3-4hr Fire , Still Warm Next Day .. ( Power Goes Out ) Who Cares . .
Took It straight Up through Home - Reducing @ 1st Floor & Again @ Second Floor & Again into Attic ..

Only Saying this as Mass Mean Good & Being in Middle of Home Means Even Much Better . .
That Home was Built in 1998 so R10 Hard Foam was Not a Thing - Most did under Slab or on Out side of End Basement Wall . .

I just got ~ Done Insulating ~ 8ft Basement & 12" Freeze Board above that as it had None !
When I did some Calculations I was Amazed that up to ( 1 Million BTU's Per Day ) are Lost Through Basements . .

WOW -Once I Noted that I was Off - Sealing Leaks -&- Insulating that Bare Wall .. R15 Rockwool up 4ft , then R18 , then Final R30 . .

Just Wanted to Bring that - Info - to Light as to Your Basement - 4 Items to Consider . .

As Digging all around Outside Perimeter to Reseal & Place Special Drainage Layer & Adding R10 to Outside of a
already Built Home that has been Back Filled & Done .. $ $ $ $ $ $ Huge . .

I'd Like to ask those Here that may have done of Help Build such a Unit You are Under taking that
~ Air Space Design or Dual Walled ~ would also be Better & More Eff% , Not Require as Much Mass . .
Thanks to All & Sounds Like a Neat Project !

PS: with Today's Weather & Risk ~!~ Power could be Out for 3-4 Days

 

[EatenByLimestone]

What?

 

[EngTechnow]

YES , 1 Million BTU's Lost through Basements Built back in 60"s , 70's , 80's , 90's - Per Day . .
Unless They were Built with Insulated Slabs & Walls
Yes Love Mass . .

Center is Best Location in My Book - Not on End Wall for Best Results . .

Is OP's Basement Insulated ?

Oh You Forgot to Ask . . Home that Old has seen Many Up Dates . . so Asking ?

 

[DIYMasonryHeater25]

YES , 1 Million BTU's Lost through Basements Built back in 60"s , 70's , 80's , 90's - Per Day . .
Unless They were Built with Insulated Slabs & Walls
Yes Love Mass . .

Center is Best Location in My Book - Not on End Wall for Best Results . .

Is OP's Basement Insulated ?

Oh You Forgot to Ask . . Home that Old has seen Many Up Dates . . so Asking ?

The MW would be in the center of the front of the house, as the front chimney is slightly offset to one side there. The chimney goes from the basement, to the dining room and den's wall, then in (visible) our bedroom, before going through the attic and roof.

The basement is not insulated. It stays cool to cold through the year as most of it (5 feet or so) in underground. there are multiple windows around the basement, but the ones in the back are in or under rooms. (under the sunroom, visible in the laundry room...its where the plumbing was brought in.) The 2 on either side of the front of the house are at or just below ground level, they can be opened and hoses run out or into them. (they are closed and locked for the winter.) I don't imagine it is insulated at all, but if the point is that heating that area as well as the first floor is a waste, then maybe it is true...but if we get a very cold front (hopefully those are over for the season), if it got below freezing down there, our pipes could freeze, including the heat pump's water lines for the radiators throughout the house. I have one lone heater standing 3 feet away from the "central board" for the heat pump. That would be unplugged if anything else is heating that space...just keeping it above freezing. (the low for this week is tonight...it is forecast to hit 22F. I need to see if a thermostat was put down there...I bought a set with enough for nearly all of the rooms in the house. it isn't electronic or connected to anything, so it is a matter of checking it when you are in the room. I'll head down there before I sleep, to check the temp, and again when I wake up.)

 

[stoveliker]

There are "rope heaters" you can plug in and wind around the pipes that are exposed to cold. (And heat will conduct to where you can't reach them).
They use a lot less power than electric stand alone heaters because you don't heat the space but just the pipes.

This may be a cheap solution to keep the pipes safe if you go with a wood stove upstairs.

 

[EngTechnow]

I Agee , My Old Victorian Never Insulated when We Bought It Either & 400k , Peerless Boiler in Middle of Basement.
( Built like Brick Out House )
But It had 11" Poured Walls by Hand Built Forms with 8 x10" Beams Running those Walls
Steel Supports - Commercial Grade Build - Original Guy was Well to Do . . & New Many Builders
as He was a Surveyor by Trade for Grandfathered Homes in that Area . . 6.5ft Deep with Beams on Top
Floor Joist all - Hand Notched - In . . ( I have been in over 187 Homes ) Never seen anything like this ..

Usually Stayed 40~41F in Cold of Winter - Cold Snaps see 38F also 2" of Solid Wood above that . .Flooring . .
Now just so You may Compare - I'm filling in Blanks Peerless Boiler is about 3.5ft High 2ft x 2ft . . It did Have
.279 Hole in Main Nozzle - Over 1/4" I was - like O-M-G . . so that Got Changed Out to a .129 Inside Dia.
We Insulated Empty Walls will Blown in Pressurized Full 4" & 38 Storm Window with in First 3 yrs ..
Basement Windows all got Up Graded to Full 5/8" Insulated Glass - No E-Coatings back then ..
I Boxed in Boiler with It's Own 12ft x 12ft Room . . Then Ran 3/4" Hard Foam around 2 Walls on Wind Side & Cover Rest & That
with 3/4" Tq & Groove this Took Time about another Yr & 1/2 as We had Time & Money ..
Found Items on Sale !

At that Point Basement stayed at 50F to 52F & Long Deep Cold 46F - Floors in Home Felt so Much Better - this Will Be Result !
Your Get with even Warmer Basement & Floors !

As that Will Be way Warmer then Old Boiler - Gravity Unit - Moving 68 Gallons Up & Down 2 Loops Slowly . .
12ft x 12ft Room would Hold about 55F~60F
as Water Temps on Coldest of Day Gravity Units - Only Run 115-120F If That . .
We had 2-3 weeks where Temps would be in Mid Teens . . 11F ~ 19F

Hope Your OK - Sounds Like Good Projects , Remember what Others Do Not Realize when I say 1 Million BTU's
They Live in a Heated Box Above Basement which is Insulated & Ceiling Insulated also ..
Most Heat Raises , also ( It's When 1 Goes to Heat Basement Loses Begin ) . .

Just Heads Up - to what You May want to Consider - or - Do Before or After Placement , Leave Room . . to do those Items . .

Looking Forward to this Project ..

My Recent Insulation in Basement as this Wall had Nothing !

Only Thermal Broke Upper Near Freeze Zone allowing Lower to Breathe Out & R30 Above that R18 with R15 Lower
Do to Earth Temps - Not Much If any Gain Going Higher in Lower Half . .

Rook Wool as it DOES NOT Ever be Effected by Moisture & Yellow Pine Wall Wanes Panels are Exterior Grade . .