What’s wrong with this picture?

[bholler]

I listened to what everyone had to say but I couldn't shake the fact that something was wrong with my stove.

I had planned to put a smaller stove in any ways so I decided to just do it.

I was able to sell the 30 for enough to pick up a 13 brand new and some beer to make changing it out easier.

Got it fired up yesterday afternoon. Some things I noticed.

1. I could actually hear air being pulled through my chimney pipe. With the 30 I could not hear it.

2. Fires start SO much easier.

3. It is much more controllable with just the slide on the stove.

4. My teeth are not sweating anymore!

5. The flue temp is almost always in the yellow now or just barely down in the white and before it was barely reading on the thermometer half the time.

6. Had good coals last night, put a chunk of birch in at 8. This morning at 7 I still had enough coals to get a piece of pine to light easy.

7. I can control the temp in the house better and my dogs are not trying to crawl into my deep freezer to get cooled off!

I'm still planning to have the chimney relined. But I also think that with the higher stack Temps my creosote build up will not be nearly as bad.

View attachment 201581

Did you or are you still planning on lining the chimney?

 

[Doc C]

Did you or are you still planning on lining the chimney?

Yes they are still going to come out.

 

[bholler]

Yes they are still going to come out.

Good

 

[Doc C]

Whoa, that was a fast change. If the 13 can't keep up at least you know it's easy to swap back to a 30. This is a tough time of year to heat with wood. It's so warm out that we also overtemp the house sometimes. Good to hear you're liking the 13.

My wife is our insurance agent so I got insurance approval on the spot! The stove was in stock and I only needed to extend the pipe 2". So the whole thing took about 2 hours.

The 30 went to someone that has an old uninsulated cabin so it will probably get used more like it's supposed too.

I tried the 30 for 2 winters and it just wasn't working the way I needed it too. Tried to make a bunch of changes this last summer and it didn't help once I started burning so it was time.

Our house 1940 square feet. 4' or more insulation in the attic, air sealed, New windows and doors, crawl space insulated r 30 I think.

I think this stove is a better fit. I'll update once I get done more time running it.

 

[Heftiger]

I listened to what everyone had to say but I couldn't shake the fact that something was wrong with my stove.

I had planned to put a smaller stove in any ways so I decided to just do it.

I was able to sell the 30 for enough to pick up a 13 brand new and some beer to make changing it out easier.

Got it fired up yesterday afternoon. Some things I noticed.

1. I could actually hear air being pulled through my chimney pipe. With the 30 I could not hear it.

2. Fires start SO much easier.

3. It is much more controllable with just the slide on the stove.

4. My teeth are not sweating anymore!

5. The flue temp is almost always in the yellow now or just barely down in the white and before it was barely reading on the thermometer half the time.

6. Had good coals last night, put a chunk of birch in at 8. This morning at 7 I still had enough coals to get a piece of pine to light easy.

7. I can control the temp in the house better and my dogs are not trying to crawl into my deep freezer to get cooled off!

I'm still planning to have the chimney relined. But I also think that with the higher stack Temps my creosote build up will not be nearly as bad.

View attachment 201581

Glad to see you got this worked out. Must be a huge relief.

The install looks great! (Aesthetically, I’m no expert on wood stove installation)

 

[begreen]

Hearth is Flagstone over 3 layers of 1/2" cement board with thin set on top of plywood on top of 2x6 diagnal subfloor on top of 2x10 rafters and insulation. Not sure the total r value.

I'm thinking that I might have to run a little supplemental heat on occasion but that is OK.

The13NC needs more protection. How much more will depend on the brand of cement board. Was this Durock NexGen? If so, that would be about an R=1.17 protection. If it is regular Durock cement board then the protection is only R=.78. The 13NC needs at least R=2.0. It's a pretty low stove so maybe build a little pedestal or platform to raise it up off the floor a bit more? Increasing the air gap from the floor to the underside of the stove will help.

 

[Highbeam]

The13NC needs more protection. How much more will depend on the brand of cement board. Was this Durock NexGen? If so, that would be about an R=1.17 protection. If it is regular Durock cement board then the protection is only R=.78. The 13NC needs at least R=2.0. It's a pretty low stove so maybe build a little pedestal or platform to raise it up off the floor a bit more? Increasing the air gap from the floor to the underside of the stove will help.

It might be easier to swap the stove for one with hearth requirements that can be met with the current hearth.

4 feet of attic insulation! Hard to imagine.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Try a laser temp gun on your flue and stove. My old style gauges were as much as 100 degrees or more OFF!

 

[Doc C]

It might be easier to swap the stove for one with hearth requirements that can be met with the current hearth.

4 feet of attic insulation! Hard to imagine.

I bought insulation based on my square footage of my second floor but because of the way the house is built the attic is much smaller.

I need up using all of the insulation I bought. And it's blow in in top of r 30ish fiberglass that was there already.

If I need to I will build a raised hearth. No big deal. And I had planned on doing that anyways down the road.

 

[Doc C]

The13NC needs more protection. How much more will depend on the brand of cement board. Was this Durock NexGen? If so, that would be about an R=1.17 protection. If it is regular Durock cement board then the protection is only R=.78. The 13NC needs at least R=2.0. It's a pretty low stove so maybe build a little pedestal or platform to raise it up off the floor a bit more? Increasing the air gap from the floor to the underside of the stove will help.

I'm not questioning the logic behind following the requirements that englander says for hearth R Value. I hate to burn the house down and I especially hate to burn it done and not have insurance cover it!

What I'm wondering is how the heck they can require r value of 2 for a hearth pad?

When the stove is going full out the floor is barely warm and the metal on the bottom of the stove is not very warm either?

What is the thinking of this on their part?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

What I'm wondering is how the heck they can require r value of 2 for a hearth pad?

I would think possibly they are anticipating a hot ember falling onto the hearth pad unnoticed. while unlikely it is a possibility. Yes the floor is usually cold ,but i can think of all kind of scenarios where hot embers wind up on the floor and while the hearth pad is fireproof the floor underneath is not.

 

[Doc C]

I would think possibly they are anticipating a hot ember falling onto the hearth pad unnoticed. while unlikely it is a possibility. Yes the floor is usually cold ,but i can think of all kind of scenarios where hot embers wind up on the floor and while the hearth pad is fireproof the floor underneath is not.

Except with that reasoning the r value should be the same for all stoves since a hot ember is a hot ember regardless of where it comes from.

Just can't figure out why there is such a high r value needed with this stove specifically.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

7. I can control the temp in the house better and my dogs are not trying to crawl into my deep freezer to get cooled off!

I'm still planning to have the chimney relined. But I also think that with the higher stack Temps my creosote build up will not be nearly as bad.

View attachment 201581

Congrats on the new (smaller) stove! I bet you will love the change. The firebox is only half as big so you might want to get out there and re-split a bunch of those bigger (unsplit) rounds. You're going to be burning quite a bit less wood for two reasons:

1) You will no longer be over-heating your living space. That wastes a lot of BTU's (in addition to making it less comfortable).

2) The wood you do burn will burn at a MUCH higher efficiency due to higher firebox temperatures. Your other stove was sending millions of potential BTU's right up the chimney in the form of unburnt gasses.

During the coldest weather you will need to reload a bit more often but it will be more fun because your fires will burn how they should, you will have less ash and un-burnt coals. Also, with half the firebox volume, less hauling/stacking. Pay no attention to the published efficiency figures, this little beauty is going to blow the doors off the efficiency of that 3.5 cu. ft. unit, particularly with the mix of low-moderate heating value softwoods you have available. Is your existing wood too long to load north/south? You will want to make sure wood for the future is obtained in the best size for your new baby.

Did your chimney ever get warm enough previously to add significant heat to your 2nd floor via radiation/convection from the heated brick? Or did the chimney stay near room temperature, even during peak burns?

 

[Doc C]

Congrats on the new (smaller) stove! I bet you will love the change. The firebox is only half as big so you might want to get out there and re-split a bunch of those bigger (unsplit) rounds. You're going to be burning quite a bit less wood for two reasons:

1) You will no longer be over-heating your living space. That wastes a lot of BTU's (in addition to making it less comfortable).

2) The wood you do burn will burn at a MUCH higher efficiency due to higher firebox temperatures. Your other stove was sending millions of potential BTU's right up the chimney in the form of unburnt gasses.

During the coldest weather you will need to reload a bit more often but it will be more fun because your fires will burn how they should, you will have less ash and un-burnt coals. Also, with half the firebox volume, less hauling/stacking. Pay no attention to the published efficiency figures, this little beauty is going to blow the doors off the efficiency of that 3.5 cu. ft. unit, particularly with the mix of low-moderate heating value softwoods you have available. Is your existing wood too long to load north/south? You will want to make sure wood for the future is obtained in the best size for your new baby.

Did your chimney ever get warm enough previously to add significant heat to your 2nd floor via radiation/convection from the heated brick? Or did the chimney stay near room temperature, even during peak burns?

The brick never gets warm at all even in the first floor.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

When the stove is going full out the floor is barely warm and the metal on the bottom of the stove is not very warm either?

What is the thinking of this on their part?

The brick never gets warm at all even in the first floor.

If it's any consolation, the manufacturer calls for the same hearth protection on the bigger stove you just removed.

I have no idea how they come up with that. Common sense says if the stonework is not getting hot during an extended hot fire, the wood underneath won't be either!

 

[Doc C]

If it's any consolation, the manufacturer calls for the same hearth protection on the bigger stove you just removed.

I have no idea how they come up with that. Common sense says if the stonework is not getting hot during an extended hot fire, the wood underneath won't be either!

Verify this but I think the 30 I removed was 1.5 r value.

 

[Doc C]

If it's any consolation, the manufacturer calls for the same hearth protection on the bigger stove you just removed.

I have no idea how they come up with that. Common sense says if the stonework is not getting hot during an extended hot fire, the wood underneath won't be either!

Ok I'm glad it's not just me then that thinks it's a little strange. Never the less...have to make the powers that be happy so I will be constructing the proper hearth for this stove.

Side note....when the state inspector came to the house when I installed the 30 a couple years ago he told me the state doesn't require any certain r value. Just that there is non combustible material at a certain distance around the stove. He may have been interpreting the rules loosely.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Verify this but I think the 30 I removed was 1.5 r value.

Ooops, and I just read it last night but was going from memory. I double-checked and it does say R 1.5 for the 30! So is the window on the 13 closer to the hearth?

 

[Doc C]

Ooops, and I just read it last night but was going from memory. I double-checked and it does say R 1.5 for the 30! So is the window on the 13 closer to the hearth?

I would say it is closer since it's a shorter stove ever all. I had to add 2" of pipe. But I also have not measured

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Side note....when the state inspector came to the house when I installed the 30 a couple years ago he told me the state doesn't require any certain r value. Just that there is non combustible material at a certain distance around the stove. He may have been interpreting the rules loosely.

Well he was accurate except maybe he forgot to mention that the printed State regs likely require it to meet all manufacturer minimums. But he might have been saying they don't research this for each new install to insure compliance and just routinely pass them if they have ember protection. Which seems kind of lackadaisical on his part because some stoves do radiate enough to need more than ember protection.

 

[Doc C]

Well he was accurate except maybe he forgot to mention that the printed State regs likely require it to meet all manufacturer minimums. But he might have been saying they don't research this for each new install to insure compliance and just routinely pass them if they have ember protection. Which seems kind of lackadaisical on his part because some stoves do radiate enough to need more than ember protection.

That was exactly my thinking.

 

[begreen]

If it's any consolation, the manufacturer calls for the same hearth protection on the bigger stove you just removed.

I have no idea how they come up with that. Common sense says if the stonework is not getting hot during an extended hot fire, the wood underneath won't be either!

It's lab tested. The Englander 30NC has a hearth protection requirement of R=1.5, the 13NC is R=2.0. The danger is when the protection requirement is far off is pyrolysis. One rarely sees what is happening under the hearth. Pyrolysis can take years before a problem arises. Here's an example.

 

[bholler]

And believe me there is a reason for them to require that r value. If they could get away with less I am sure they would.

 

[VirginiaIron]

That looks like a photo from a brochure, very nice.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

It's lab tested. The Englander 30NC has a hearth protection requirement of R=1.5, the 13NC is R=2.0.

You're about 4 posts behind here. Try to keep up.

The danger is when the protection requirement is far off is pyrolysis. One rarely sees what is happening under the hearth. Pyrolysis can take years before a problem arises.

Well, I'm not stupid enough to publically argue it's a bad idea to meet or exceed code and manufacturer minimums. I can say unequivocally that even wood that has undergone severe pyrolysis needs to reach a temperature of at least 170F degrees to ignite and many authorities put it as high as 200F. I can't even hold my hand on a surface that is 150 degrees without burning myself. I would be interested if you knew of a mechanism by which the wood under a layer of stone and two sheets of cement board could reach those temperatures while the stone on top remained cool to the touch.

I'm not debating that code shouldn't be met (regardless of whether it's enforced or not) and I didn't imply it with a wink and a nod. Do you have hearth temperature results from the lab testing you referred to? Only then would you know the specifics of how those numbers were arrived at. I wouldn't assume they didn't just wing it for the sake of expedience and keeping costs low and liability protection high. My point is, we don't know whether the numbers are based on good science or not. That's not a good reason to ignore them but I'm not willing to assume they are accurate because we don't know.

I am confident they don't err on the side of recklessness.