What’s wrong with this picture?

[Doc C]

Creosote is formed by the condensation of flue gases. I can almost guarantee that the temp at the top of the chimney will be below 250ºF. It wouldn't hurt to check if you have the safe means to do this, but not necessary.

Ok so I checked the tubes and they were clean and clear.

Then I brought my air compressor inside and this is where things got screwy!

First I blew out the little time holes behind the front legs and air came out of what I believe is called the doghouse. At first no air was coming out but then it started to flow almost like it was clogged.

Next I blew air into the square hole in the back near the blower and air came out of the top of the stove like the tube area. Fine.

Then I blew air through the round hole where the OAK would go. Nothing. No air anywhere. Played with the slide and no air?!?!?

It’s an Englander 30. What am I missing? Where should the primary air be coming into the stove at?

 

[begreen]

Ok so I checked the tubes and they were clean and clear.

Then I brought my air compressor inside and this is where things got screwy!

First I blew out the little time holes behind the front legs and air came out of what I believe is called the doghouse. At first no air was coming out but then it started to flow almost like it was clogged.

Next I blew air into the square hole in the back near the blower and air came out of the top of the stove like the tube area. Fine.

Then I blew air through the round hole where the OAK would go. Nothing. No air anywhere. Played with the slide and no air?!?!?

It’s an Englander 30. What am I missing? Where should the primary air be coming into the stove at?

This sounds more like a seasonal draft and cold chimney issue than a stove issue so far.

 

[Doc C]

This sounds more like a seasonal draft and cold chimney issue than a stove issue so far.

Ok except shouldn’t I be getting air into the stove from the round opening which I think is the primary air inlet?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Ok except shouldn’t I be getting air into the stove from the round opening which I think is the primary air inlet?

Most of the primary air enters the firebox through the glass air wash slot at the top of the door opening.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Is the Englander 30 the same as Englander 30NC?

Maybe this will help

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/where-does-air-flow-into-an-englander-nc30.26717/ Post # 6

cmonSTART nailed it. Primary air comes in through the three inch tube in the back of the bottom of the firebox. It travels from there to a distribution manifold in the front of the stove where part of it travels up risers on each side of the front of the stove and is injected as air wash across the window. The rest of the primary air goes through the manifold below the window to the "doghouse" in the center front of the stove. The doghouse is the only air inlet in the lower front of the stove. The rest of the primary air comes down the glass and is deflected into the fire by the flat plate on either side of the doghouse.

Secondary air comes in through a hole in the same area as the primary inlet and is preheated as it goes up through that rectangular steel box you see in the middle of the back of the stove and then is distributed to the burn tubes by manifolds running front to back in the top of the firebox.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Is your ceramic fiberboard baffle installed properly and in reasonably good condition?

 

[Doc C]

Is your ceramic fiberboard baffle installed properly and in reasonably good condition?

Yes it is

 

[Doc C]

Is the Englander 30 the same as Englander NC30?

Maybe this will help

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/where-does-air-flow-into-an-englander-nc30.26717/ Post # 6

cmonSTART nailed it. Primary air comes in through the three inch tube in the back of the bottom of the firebox. It travels from there to a distribution manifold in the front of the stove where part of it travels up risers on each side of the front of the stove and is injected as air wash across the window. The rest of the primary air goes through the manifold below the window to the "doghouse" in the center front of the stove. The doghouse is the only air inlet in the lower front of the stove. The rest of the primary air comes down the glass and is deflected into the fire by the flat plate on either side of the doghouse.

Secondary air comes in through a hole in the same area as the primary inlet and is preheated as it goes up through that rectangular steel box you see in the middle of the back of the stove and then is distributed to the burn tubes by manifolds running front to back in the top of the firebox.

I am not getting air from my primary intake out my doghouse. This is not happening for sure. The only place that allows air to go into the doghouse is the little holes behind the front legs.

This picture is starting to come together. Am I thinking about this correct?

 

[Doc C]

Talked to ESW tech support and they said that I should not be able to feel any air entering the firebox when I blow air into the primary opening??

This does not sound right to me but I’m not sure.

 

[yooper08]

Sounds about right to me. You're moving a low volume of air at a high rate of speed, which once inside the stove's air channels, probably won't amount to much.

This is pretty straightforward, I think we're overthinking it by having you check this, that, and the other thing. As stated a few times, burn practices in warmer weather and unlined chimney are your areas to focus.

 

[Doc C]

Sounds about right to me. You're moving a low volume of air at a high rate of speed, which once inside the stove's air channels, probably won't amount to much.

This is pretty straightforward, I think we're overthinking it by having you check this, that, and the other thing. As stated a few times, burn practices in warmer weather and unlined chimney are your areas to focus.

I’m torn between waiting for the chimney to be relined and seeing how the stove does or just replacing the stove.

 

[begreen]

Talked to ESW tech support and they said that I should not be able to feel any air entering the firebox when I blow air into the primary opening??

This does not sound right to me but I’m not sure.

There is not a direct path, but rather a series of 90º turns that preheat the air and eventually deliver it to the air wash. It's unlikely you would feel it.

I’m torn between waiting for the chimney to be relined and seeing how the stove does or just replacing the stove.

I'd recommend to do the chimney lining with an insulated stainless liner first. That will benefit this stove or a new one. It will draft better, reduce creosote accumulation and be safer.

 

[yooper08]

^ Agreed, do the liner now. Unless you're actively in the market for a new stove, I wouldn't waste my time there trying to get a new one trying to resolve your problems here. No matter the stove, you'll have the same problems until we address the two issues I've outlined.

 

[Highbeam]

Again the existence or condition of clay liners has absolutely nothing to do with insulation requirements. You really need to stop telling people that.

You are wrong, again. Liners are not required to be insulated by default. You need to stick to what you know.

I was worried that his installers would omit the insulation which in this case is required since his masonry chimney is no longer "legal". Wouldn't you agree with that?

I don't know why you insist on being so rude.

 

[bholler]

You are wrong, again. Liners are not required to be insulated by default. You need to stick to what you know.

I was worried that his installers would omit the insulation which in this case is required since his masonry chimney is no longer "legal". Wouldn't you agree with that?

I don't know why you insist on being so rude.

I didn't say they needed to be insulated by default did I? I said that clay liners being there or not has no bearing on it. Chimneys liners and the applicable codes are what I know. And the only reason I was rude is because I have repeatedly corrected you and provided the supporting codes yet you continue to give people innacurate advice that violates code and is potentially dangerous.

 

[begreen]

Take further discussion offline via a conversation.

 

[bholler]

You are wrong, again. Liners are not required to be insulated by default. You need to stick to what you know.

I was worried that his installers would omit the insulation which in this case is required since his masonry chimney is no longer "legal". Wouldn't you agree with that?

I don't know why you insist on being so rude.

Also even if those clay liners are in perfect condition if there is not the required clearance which the vast majority of chimneys don't have the chimney is already not "legal" which referring to it as legal is innacurate as well. In most cases there is nothing illegal at all about using a non code compliant chimney. But once you work on it like putting on a liner you are then required to bring it up to code.

 

[bholler]

Take further discussion offline via a conversation.

Sorry bg I'll let it go.

 

[Highbeam]

Also even if those clay liners are in perfect condition if there is not the required clearance which the vast majority of chimneys don't have the chimney is already not "legal" which referring to it as legal is innacurate as well. In most cases there is nothing illegal at all about using a non code compliant chimney. But once you work on it like putting on a liner you are then required to bring it up to code.

Sounds good. Not sure what you thought you read from me that was contrary. Feel free to put me on your ignore list.

 

[kennyp2339]

I like BG's approach, poor draft in warmer weather, once regular and continued loads occur with cold conditions the draft improves and the flue is warmer.
Just another quick question, at the thimble area, how far is the metal smoke pipe into the masonry chimney?

 

[VirginiaIron]

I like BG's approach, poor draft in warmer weather, once regular and continued loads occur with cold conditions the draft improves and the flue is warmer.
Just another quick question, at the thimble area, how far is the metal smoke pipe into the masonry chimney?

I thought thenOPSaid it was close to flush with the vertical section, wince.

 

[Doc C]

I listened to what everyone had to say but I couldn't shake the fact that something was wrong with my stove.

I had planned to put a smaller stove in any ways so I decided to just do it.

I was able to sell the 30 for enough to pick up a 13 brand new and some beer to make changing it out easier.

Got it fired up yesterday afternoon. Some things I noticed.

1. I could actually hear air being pulled through my chimney pipe. With the 30 I could not hear it.

2. Fires start SO much easier.

3. It is much more controllable with just the slide on the stove.

4. My teeth are not sweating anymore!

5. The flue temp is almost always in the yellow now or just barely down in the white and before it was barely reading on the thermometer half the time.

6. Had good coals last night, put a chunk of birch in at 8. This morning at 7 I still had enough coals to get a piece of pine to light easy.

7. I can control the temp in the house better and my dogs are not trying to crawl into my deep freezer to get cooled off!

I'm still planning to have the chimney relined. But I also think that with the higher stack Temps my creosote build up will not be nearly as bad.

 

[begreen]

Good to hear that you're happy Doc. The 13NC is a good stove, just not as quie as efficient as the 30NC so it lets a bit more heat up the chimney. It will be interesting to see how it works out when temps drop below 25F. Keep us posted on that.

The 13NC has stiffer hearth requirements. Is the floor a concrete slab at the stove location?

 

[Doc C]

Good to hear that you're happy Doc. The 13NC is a good stove, just not as quie as efficient as the 30NC so it lets a bit more heat up the chimney. It will be interesting to see how it works out when temps drop below 25F. Keep us posted on that.

The 13NC has stiffer hearth requirements. Is the floor a concrete slab at the stove location?

Hearth is Flagstone over 3 layers of 1/2" cement board with thin set on top of plywood on top of 2x6 diagnal subfloor on top of 2x10 rafters and insulation. Not sure the total r value.

I'm thinking that I might have to run a little supplemental heat on occasion but that is OK.

 

[Highbeam]

Whoa, that was a fast change. If the 13 can't keep up at least you know it's easy to swap back to a 30. This is a tough time of year to heat with wood. It's so warm out that we also overtemp the house sometimes. Good to hear you're liking the 13.