Vermont Casting damage control

[Diabel]

Good summary Swestall,

I just can not afford a new stove! I could stuff it with ironwood, buckle or crack the back of it & fight it out with VC through legal channels, but I am just not up to it! AGAIN IT SURE SOUNDS CRAZY!!

 

[webbie]

You all forgot to mention the "this modern world offers few challenges, so I want to "conquer" this one" syndrome!
Of course, Diabel puts it in his signature! As I have said before, never underestimate brand loyalty or the Emperors new clothes.

"The moral of the story is that just because the whole world believes that something is true, it doesn't mean that it is, and perhaps also that one should not refrain from asking a question that may, at the time, be considered to be stupid by the majority."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes


In a world where Brittany Spears makes "music" and Microsoft make software, just about anything is possible! I won' get too far into the Microsoft example, but they have done just fine (thank you) in selling mediocre and poor software - much of which people don't need! Example - one of the orgs that webwidow works for has a guy in charge that loves all the MS software...you know, uses Excel but only for lists! So they are developing this "list" and he comes up with the brilliant idea of uploading the spreadsheet to their yahoo groups site and then letting all the committee members update it. Problem is, each member has to download it, have Excel, then upload it - all to get ONE more name on the list! So, at minimum that is 6 copies of Excel needed...and, of course, all those people have to keep their version updated or know how to save in the old formats, etc. - I love it!

So, I point WW to google docs - a free service which does what they want and 10x more - for free. No one has to download anything, and they can change in real time from anywhere....

Just one small example of our acceptance of things "on brand name appeal".

We are stubborn animals.

 

[webbie]

Further to the post above, wood burning is - by nature - the "hard" way, so having it be a little harder is not always a breaking point. Also, we have a tendency to think the problem cannot be with us. It is not possible (in some minds) for a manufacturer to put a product on the market which is too highly tuned to pass EPA and not to burn cord wood.

 

[zzr7ky]

I'm guessing that these stoves are getting engineered to a pretty tight operating envelope to satisfy a bunch or competing requirements.

I was very tempted to dirrect connect and 'let 'er rip!! However you all convinced me to do a proper insulated (rigid) liner, and add 6' to my chimney. It was an expense and project that I really didn't feel like doing. However my stove drafts like mad even in warm weather. I get only fly ash out of it in the spring.

I'm wondering what the effective chimney hight is on these 'problem' stoves. Suspecting that these stoves are touchy I would have an insulated liner (preferably rigid) and be sure to have a tall enough stack.

ATB,
Mike P

 

[webbie]

In the newest podcast, Gulland mentions the EPA test stand as being 15 feet from the floor - about 12 feet of chimney AND the temp in the lab is usually room temp, creating an even weaker draft. Then there is the issue of the 4x4 and 2x4 fir fuel with spacers nailed around it.

That type of chimney must be why the Avalon in one of my shops - with a 10 foot straight up chimney - worked as well or better than most!

 

[kevin fitzsimmons]

I agree that wood burning by its nature is the hard way. From stand to wood box to ashbin is exponentially more work than nudging a switch on the wall. That said, we all choose to burn wood for are own reasons. Many of these are the same. I disagree with the sentiment that some of us might be looking for the easiest fastest way to accomplish this. The analogy of learning to drive on a automatic then moving to a fancy standard does not quite fit the everburn. More like trying to learn on the standard and each time you pop the clutch you have no idea what gear it is going to be in. sometimes you are trying to go from 1st to 5th. Sometimes you get it right. Only thing is you never know what gear you are going to be in. If there was a temperature, or thickness of coals, or certain way I had to hold my tongue or… that would have consistently worked for the VC NC, I would have kept it and been more or less happy. I could never find the right combination, or I could, and it never worked again. So, Sold, and am pretty happy with the Canadian made PE

 

[kevin fitzsimmons]

So Craig, if the epa test are as you say, and has lead to the “Florida bungalow syndrome”, then I would expect that the everburn did perform well in the test situation with relatively low draft. Why are users in the real world, with likely much greater draft having such a hard time to get the eveburn to engage? Didn’t Englander pick up a Dutch west to run it through some testing? Any one know whet this has gotten to?

 

[swestall]

Englander is going to get a Defiant NC, but not yet.

 

[webbie]

So Craig, if the epa test are as you say, and has lead to the “Florida bungalow syndrome”, then I would expect that the everburn did perform well in the test situation with relatively low draft. Why are users in the real world, with likely much greater draft having such a hard time to get the eveburn to engage? Didn’t Englander pick up a Dutch west to run it through some testing? Any one know whet this has gotten to?

If a person uses 20% moisture 4x4 and 2x4 with spacer, I am willing to bet that it performs well.
The spacers might make a lot of difference - also, keep in mind that lab technicians are allowed a certain amount of stirring (positioning) - so take the experienced techs who work for the company - I'm certain they can get it to work well.

The problems relate to cord wood, chimneys that are too weak, too strong and both (under certain conditions). One thing we don't seem to have is a user with a 12 foot straight up insulated who burns well seasoned pine....or do we?

 

[cmcramer]

Could someone please provide a link to the post from VC where they discuss 'flue collar glowing red is OK"......I missed that one.


Thanks!

ps) What other parts can glow red.....and it's OK?

 

[Diabel]

Could someone please provide a link to the post from VC where they discuss 'flue collar glowing red is OK"......I missed that one.


Thanks!

ps) What other parts can glow red.....and it's OK?

In my case it is not the actual collar, it is the cast behind the refactory.. most of is is hidden by the back shield. Incidentally, this morning I noticed that paint is peeling from the back shield as well as the actual collar, yet the paint (mat black) on the actual back wall cast what I can see is ok!

 

[cmcramer]

Could someone please provide a link to the post from VC where they discuss 'flue collar glowing red is OK"......I missed that one.


Thanks!

ps) What other parts can glow red.....and it's OK?

In my case it is not the actual collar, it is the cast behind the refactory.. most of is is hidden by the back shield. Incidentally, this morning I noticed that paint is peeling from the back shield as well as the actual collar, yet the paint (mat black) on the actual back wall cast what I can see is ok!

Right! That's why I've asked to read the VC Rep's post. It's not the flue collar - it's the part to which the flue collar bolts. I guess I would call it the 'fireback' , if I'm reading my owner's manual properly.

I work to keep my 'fireback' from glowing red....but sometimes it just does. If VC says this glowing condition is acceptable, it would make my life way simpler. But the owner's manual forbids glowing red cast iron......so now I am confused.

Doesn't the conventional wisdom found here say that glowing red cast iron is just plain bad news....in all cases?

 

[webbie]

There were a couple posts dealing with this - I'm certain of it. As I remember it was the collar, and a heat shield of some type was suggested. Remember that each member has the option of editing or deleting their posts, and I have actually caught a member doing so (yes, one by one)! So it very well may not exist anymore...but hopefully someone can find it.

 

[tradergordo]

There have been numerous threads about the difficulties w/ everburn. Heck, I was one of the original critics. Do a search using some keywords like everburn and VC and you'll find them.

But after spending a lot more time w/ mine, it's not as much a design 'defect' that cannot be overcome. Yes, it takes at minimum double the effort, care, and attention to detail that a VC-cat stove like the encore. It's far more temperamental, harder to make secondary combustion occur, more sensitive to draft & atmospheric conditions, etc. It is definitely not an entry level stove, nor one that you can expect to have working efficiently and consistently until your second season.

But, once you come to terms and become acquainted with it, it becomes MUCH easier and less effort, and the burn times are very long (10+ hours). Last year I couldn;t achieve secondary combustion unless it was below 25 degrees outside, only likely below 15 or lower. But its 37 degrees outside now and it's rumbling away in an efficient burn w/ a mix of green & seasoned wood.

It is without question designed (or at least advised) for an experienced, 24x7 burner who is using it for primary heat of a large space.

All the above being said, VC has been less involved with the issue than I would like.

I've been off forum for a while, and missed this thread...

It never ceases to amaze me how similar our thoughts and experiences with the same stove have been. I agree with your comments. This stove just plain takes a long time to get used to, more than a full season for both of us. I feel like I'm finally "getting there". My burntimes now are fantastic, better than my friends with burn tube on top designs can get (and using less wood) and I'm finally getting the emissions issue solved. I agree that this stove is designed for serious heating, and runs best when you are heating 24/7, and especially when outdoor temps are consistently low. I'm also disappointed in the lack of involvement by VC reps on the forums (I would think this would be the best "free" advertising they could get - certainly the most bang for the buck if they are paying someone at least part time for such as task), especially when other manufacturers have been very involved. The dealers and even CFM tech support guys aren't very helpful either based on all of the reports that have been discussed here - and really that's to be expected, anyone that has not used the stove personally for at least a year if not longer, probably isn't going to be of much help.

As for the glowing stove parts - NO, I have never had glowing stove parts, and personally I think there is a serious problem going on for anyone that does. I also haven't had any runaway fire events that made me worry about my stove (flue temps never stay above 1000 for more than 15 minutes for example). I would not continue to burn any stove that glowed red like that, its only a matter of time before those parts fail. If you're certain there are no leaks, then you need to limit secondary air intake (see detailed discussion about this). Paint flaking off is a sign of over-firing as well. If limiting intake air does not solve the problem, and VC doesn't want to take responsibility, I'd either accept the loss and move on, or take them to small claims court (usually that threat alone is enough for a company to "make it right"). And hey, if they are saying they haven't had many complaints, then they should not have a big problem with replacing a stove or two.

As for my old everburn video - you guys mentioned a broken link - I'm not sure what the problem is or was, but that file is still on my server. HOWEVER, in case you missed it, I just posted a brand new series of videos (with more to come) demonstrating how I operate my everburn stove. See:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/14536/#159748

p.s. Craig I'm looking forward to listening to the new Gulland interview.
p.p.s. No one should be surprised that the everburn stoves do well in the EPA test. When you understand how the tests are performed, the only thing that shocks me is how any stove could fail. But the everburn stoves are especially well suited to pass the test with flying colors. I've posted in detail about this before...


In the cases of overfiring despite no leaking gaskets, you REALLY must read this article from John Gulland:
http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

There is something very simple that you can try which could help. All you need to do is take a piece of tin foil, stick it over your secondary air inlet (bottom rear of stove), fix it to the stove using the pre-drilled holes intended for the outdoor air connection, then poke a hole in the tin foil at the center. You can start with any size hole, and adjust as needed!

Read the article to understand why this is a better solution than alternatives such as a flue damper, cap restrictor, or barometric damper. If you want to get fancy, you can make something that is adjustable, this should not be much trouble really, I’m thinking of a simple metal, open/close slider control.

 

[downeast]

But after spending a lot more time w/ mine, it's not as much a design 'defect' that cannot be overcome. Yes, it takes at minimum double the effort, care, and attention to detail that a VC-cat stove like the encore. It's far more temperamental, harder to make secondary combustion occur, more sensitive to draft & atmospheric conditions, etc. It is definitely not an entry level stove, nor one that you can expect to have working efficiently and consistently until your second season.
But, once you come to terms and become acquainted with it, it becomes MUCH easier and less effort, and the burn times are very long (10+ hours). It is without question designed (or at least advised) for an experienced, 24x7 burner who is using it for primary heat of a large space.
All the above being said, VC has been less involved with the issue than I would like.
This stove just plain takes a long time to get used to, more than a full season for both of us. I feel like I'm finally "getting there". I'm also disappointed in the lack of involvement by VC reps on the forums ( The dealers and even CFM tech support guys aren't very helpful either based on all of the reports that have been discussed here - and really that's to be expected, anyone that has not used the stove personally for at least a year if not longer, probably isn't going to be of much help.

p.p.s. No one should be surprised that the everburn stoves do well in the EPA test. When you understand how the tests are performed, the only thing that shocks me is how any stove could fail. But the everburn stoves are especially well suited to pass the test with flying colors.

Let's get this "perfectly clear" : customer pays $2500.+ ( e.g. Everburn) for a product that is supposed to heat, then goes out to "repair" that product with a $.50 piece of Alcoa ? Then the "experienced" here who heat 24/7 for many years blame the customer for not "knowing" enought to use that $2500. + stove .

So let's go out and buy, say a Lexus that can't go on the Interstate. The engine, for some reason, won't go over 50 mph. The buyer is told that he/she does not know how to drive it correctly. Get a horse? Use a higher grade of premium fuel ? Go to Lexus school ? Is this some kind computer game ?

In the automotive industry, recalls not TSB's, are mandated with a tiny fraction of problems. We do not hear the manufacturers' Monty Python bleat " no one else complained" any more. the market is too competitive.

Or, perhaps the refrigerator ( 1/2 the price of the average quality wood stove) won't refrigerate. "Customer not experienced" ?

Read the Gulland articles, well done pieces. Non cat stoves were DESIGNED and ENGINEERED to give buyers a simple, easy to use appliance to meet EPA guidelines. Won't work as contracted with the buyer ? Take it back. Care for your customer. Do a fix. Get something that gives you value for $$$$. Or, say " FOR VERY VERY VERY EXPERIENCED BUYERS ONLY WITH AT LEAST 10 YEARS OF HEATING WITH WOOD". %-P

 

[webbie]

Correction - that piece of Alcoa costs a lot less than 50 cents...even with high aluminum prices!

Woodstoves are not cars, but at the same time I understand (and even agree with) the point. It should not take someone with a high IQ and a years experience to learn how to burn. I think about 6 weeks should be considered the learning curve.

As to the foil, we do have to give the manufacturers a little break based on the "Gulland" facts, that they are constrained by EPA. At the same time, the makers have to make the right decisions - the right compromises, to make certain stuff will run well. In the case of the NC Encore, I suspect that the bragging rights (low EPA numbers) were given more weight than the performance with hardwood.

The problem is probably relatively easy for them to address. I still think the design is sound, and EPA is probably the biggest roadblock to it's success. Maybe they will rework it and tune it after a while.

 

[tradergordo]

And just to clarify some more... I listened to Craig's interview with Gulland last night (thanks by the way!).

This problem of "excessive intake air" in cold climates and/or on chimneys with excellent draft is NOT specific to vermont castings, its "system wide". In fact Gulland didn't really know much about everburn stoves (but thanks for asking Craig!). He specifically said he published the Florida bungalow article a couple years ago, it has been reprinted apparently multiple times including in Hearth and Home magazine - and he said "the silence was deafening", not a single person ever called to follow up with him, or talk about the issue. He mentioned that ONE unnamed company has a "secret fix" to limit intake air that they will mail out free of charge to customers that call up and complain - but really the fix essentially invalidates the EPA certification (as wrong headed as that idea is). Most companies aren't going to go out on a limb and offer a fix because it could get them in trouble (which is ridiculous considering the liability they face from selling stoves that over-fire especially when this information is now widely known and published).

I really don't understand all these dealers and more importantly, the manufacturers themselves, that are just ignoring or PRETENDING this problem doesn't exist. Gulland outlines the various ways in which the issue could be addressed, but essentially he thinks it won't be addressed by the industry, so you are basically left to take matters into your own hands. Installers should be aware of the issue. I guess the only thing that can be done is to get the word out.

Correction - that piece of Alcoa costs a lot less than 50 cents...even with high aluminum prices!

Woodstoves are not cars, but at the same time I understand (and even agree with) the point. It should not take someone with a high IQ and a years experience to learn how to burn. I think about 6 weeks should be considered the learning curve.

As to the foil, we do have to give the manufacturers a little break based on the "Gulland" facts, that they are constrained by EPA. At the same time, the makers have to make the right decisions - the right compromises, to make certain stuff will run well. In the case of the NC Encore, I suspect that the bragging rights (low EPA numbers) were given more weight than the performance with hardwood.

The problem is probably relatively easy for them to address. I still think the design is sound, and EPA is probably the biggest roadblock to it's success. Maybe they will rework it and tune it after a while.

 

[webbie]

If you take things in the context that many of these companies have been (or are) close to the breaking point (financially), you can understand a bit more. As I said before, wood burning has been largely out of favor for 15 years. Pellets too...other than very regionally. Gas has been the big push for the last 20 years, due to ease of use, expanded markets and LOW oil prices.

Manufacturers have been bought and sold, which also disrupts the process. So it is not a surprise that things have not changed.

As Gulland also alludes to, EPA has been stripped....pretty much a hollow agency whose current purpose is to deregulate, not regulate.

Now we are back in an era of higher energy prices - but it will take years and years for the R&D;and market to catch up. As it is now, the companies are not doing well financially and therefore operating on slim budgets. It may not be pretty, but it is reality.

It will take a new generation of thinkers and engineers to come up with the next wave. Hopefully Corie and his peers will be leading the charge. If they cannot work with EPA, they have no choice but to work around them.

 

[swestall]

The leaders are already starting to emerge. The people who have been burned by VC/DW are not likely to go back. The people who know the difference and can afford to change, change. The people who can't afford to change learn to cope with a product that is very difficult at best: but you know when they actually see the other products that are great they will change over time. And, with that last spurt the company that paved the way will fade into obscurity. In the grand scheme of things it only costs each person $2500 +; it is going to cost CFM the company.
With folks like Corie, BG, Craig and all (I try to help a little) the experience lives on and with it some really nice burning products that when improved upon will be nothing less than the pinnacle of woodburning.
In the meantime: good by VC/DW and your papa CFM.

 

[Diabel]

Well, Gordo's video proved that everburn works fine. That was enough inspiration for me! After all we're the animals who created this "animal". Someone else said it "on the money" here 'it will take at least six weeks to learn how to work this beast' (I think it was Craig who said that). I am making progress & I will conquer it!

btw many of us can afford a replacement stove, but what is the challenge in that....

 

[tradergordo]

Well, Gordo's video proved that everburn works fine. That was enough inspiration for me! After all we're the animals who created this "animal". Someone else said it "on the money" here 'it will take at least six weeks to learn how to work this beast' (I think it was Craig who said that). I am making progress & I will conquer it!

btw many of us can afford a replacement stove, but what is the challenge in that....

I'd modify that to say everburn "CAN" work fine (especially when conditions are just right).

As for the death of Vermont Castings... I don't know, elk said they are working on new products with burn tubes, maybe they will just come out with burn tube versions of their everburn type stoves (I'd love to see "Dutchwest Tube edition", "Defiant Tubes"? heh). According to the company sales have been good, with few complaints, so maybe financially they are doing fine?

 

[Diabel]

It's been cold & sunny here for the past few days (high pressure) & the stove has performed quite well. Today we're getting snow & it's much warmer (I guess a low pressure situation)...& the stove is working fine.

On a different note, here in Ottawa we have several VC dealers. I decided to visit bunch of them & have a chat about the everburn. Interestingly, out of five dealers two quickly brushed me off once they realized that I am not there to buy anything, the others were happy to chat. All three said the the VC NC is not for everyone, it is for a seasoned 24/7 burners. All three pretty much said that burning these VC NC it is like learning to drive all over again. In terms of customer complaints they all said..."poor leaky gaskets" is the main complaint, but they also said that about other brands. Surprisingly, they all said that lots of complaints have come in regarding VC cat stoves specifically the catalytic converters completely needing replacement after 3-4 yrs of usage.

 

[tradergordo]

You are in a climate that is more compatible with the everburn stoves. The colder the better.

I believe those dealer comments. A lot of dealers no longer sell cat stoves at all because of the complaints and the fact that there are now lots of non-cat stoves that get as good or better emissions without the hassle of dealing with cats (maintenance, monitoring, dampering, clogs, replacements, deterioration, etc). There are a few die hard cat stove fans on the forum, and I'm sure they would say well you have to replace burn tubes on some non-cat stoves (many have lifetime warranty though), and their experience has been good with the cat stoves, and they've had fewer problems than many other people (compare with the complaints from everburn stove owners).

The gasket thing is a real problem for Vermont Castings. Many manufacturers have switched to using 100% silicone sealant for gaskets, but VC still uses Rutland gasket cement. I have personally used both, and there is no question that silicone works much better. The company should have figured this out by now like their competitors have, but they just don't seem to be on top of things. By the way, this is the stuff I used which worked great:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90026
$2

It's been cold & sunny here for the past few days (high pressure) & the stove has performed quite well. Today we're getting snow & it's much warmer (I guess a low pressure situation)...& the stove is working fine.

On a different note, here in Ottawa we have several VC dealers. I decided to visit bunch of them & have a chat about the everburn. Interestingly, out of five dealers two quickly brushed me off once they realized that I am not there to buy anything, the others were happy to chat. All three said the the VC NC is not for everyone, it is for a seasoned 24/7 burners. All three pretty much said that burning these VC NC it is like learning to drive all over again. In terms of customer complaints they all said..."poor leaky gaskets" is the main complaint, but they also said that about other brands. Surprisingly, they all said that lots of complaints have come in regarding VC cat stoves specifically the catalytic converters completely needing replacement after 3-4 yrs of usage.

 

[Diabel]

I also spoke with them about the glowing red thing. All three said "too much draft" & it should be prevented 'no stove should glow red'! A manual flue damper is a way to go to eliminate glowing. They strongly encouraged not to tinker with the everburn intake (tin foil fix). I will be off to HD to pick one up & I think at the same time I will get one of these in pipe probe thermometers. The one I have (magnetic) on the flue collar is pretty much useless. How high should I install that damper?

 

[Todd]

[quote author="tradergordo" date="1201906374"] A lot of dealers no longer sell cat stoves at all because of the complaints and the fact that there are now lots of non-cat stoves that get as good or better emissions without the hassle of dealing with cats (maintenance, monitoring, dampering, clogs, replacements, deterioration, etc). There are a few die hard cat stove fans on the forum, and I'm sure they would say well you have to replace burn tubes on some non-cat stoves (many have lifetime warranty though), and their experience has been good with the cat stoves, and they've had fewer problems than many other people (compare with the complaints from everburn stove owners).


I can't let you get away with bashing my cat stove with out a reply. Maintenance- is no big deal, just lift out the cat and brush or vacuum any fly ash, takes 5 minutes. Monitoring- after engaging I set my air control between .5 and 1 and that's it til next reload, no more continuous air tweaking like previous non cats. Dampering- Non cats could benefit from bypass dampers, it would eliminate smokey reloads, and get the firebox up to temp sooner for secondary combustion. Clogs- burn dry wood and you will never have a clog. Replacements- my cat is warranteed for 3 years, replacement is free, then pro rated for 2 or 3 more. Deterioration- True, cats deteriorate a bit after the first 100 hrs, then maintain efficiency til the very end of their life at about 12000-14000 hrs. It's not just a steep decline that produces more and more emissions.

As far as VC goes, I think they will tweek these everburns in the next couple years and they won't abandon this technology or the cats. There will always be room for both.