Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.

[woodgeek]

Sigh...

Red wine in moderation health benefits are simple enough to Google. I don't need to list them. We can even skip the red wine argument if you want that's fine. Call it a wash.

I never said eggs weren't replaceable nutritionally, I said they provide health benefits where smoking does not and I am 100% correct. Eggs provide nutrients. Smoking provides nothing. The fact that you can't acknowledge that is incredible.

I thought we were getting somewhere with our discussion here...I was wrong. I've made a mistake coming back to this thread. You are just going to bonehead argue with me and say whatever you want. So go ahead. I won't be back.

Sorry. Didn't mean to exasperate you. Really.

Yeah, smoking provides no nutrients. Eating eggs provides nutrients. Totally agree.

But in my mind, Americans are not suffering from a lack of nutrients. They are eating too much of many things that are technically nutrients.

So I want to know how do we distinguish between 'Eggs provide nutrients' as a rationale for eating them, or saying that is different from smoking, and statements like 'CO2 is plant food' or 'higher CO2 levels boost plant growth' when we are trying to talk about global warming being a problem (bc of too much of something like CO2 that has real benefits as well)?

We both get the concept of relative risk (which can be small risk or big risk) and making an informed decision based on that risk.

One point in this thread is that others in society have been up to no good with muddying the waters (the science) using a variety of familiar tactics. Tactics that were used to deny tobacco causing cancer and fossil fuels causing global warming.

And that sadly sound like 'eggs have benefits too', or 'moderate smoking is not dangerous'.

 

[SpaceBus]

I think we should clarify the metabolism of fructose:

The body/brain does in fact use fructose and is very capable of handling normal fructose intake from fruits and vegetables. It's primarily metabolized by Fructokinase and Aldolase B in the liver. The end result is glucose, lactate, and glycogen. Glucose and lactate are pure energy and glycogen is short-term stored energy.

People run into trouble when they ingest too much fructose on a regular basis, which, is quite easy to do this day and age with all the refined sugar available. There is high fructose corn syrup in everything. Soda, cereal, candy, etc. When you digest too much fructose you're sending this metabolic pathway into overdrive. The body now has more glucose than it needs, therefore produces more insulin (fructose itself isn't an insulin secretagogue but glucose is and the liver is converting fructose to glucose), glycogen storage gets maxed out, and the excess insulin prompts the body to convert the extra glucose to triglycerides which are stored as fat. The potential long term end results are devastating, including obesity and fatty liver amongst other complications.

There are other issues people can have with fructose digestion like basic intolerance (shortage or absence of Aldolase B). Discomfort, bloating, gas etc are also possible like mentioned in previous posts. But primarily it's just eating way too much and sending the whole metabolic pathway into overdrive.

Fructose via liver --> glucose/lactate/glycogen is normal and healthy.

Fructose via liver --> glucose excess --> insulin --> triglycerides/fat is bad in the long run.

Fructose ingestion from fruits is perfectly healthy and useful to your body and brain. Its very hard to "overdose" on fruits and vegetables. Its mostly just low caloric density food you can eat often. The key is avoiding or rather limiting the refined sugar intake.

That concludes today's biochemistry talk with Caw lol.

Edits - I am bad at typing.

The Small Intestine Converts Dietary Fructose into Glucose and Organic Acids - PMC

Excessive consumption of sweets is a risk factor for metabolic syndrome. A major chemical feature of sweets is fructose. Despite strong ties between fructose and disease, the metabolic fate of fructose in mammals remains incompletely understood. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The liver-fructose pathway is just one way in which the body utilizes fructose. The "heavy lifting" is taken care of by the small intestine, which breaks down the fructose into glucose, where it is immediately absorbed. If the small intestine gets too much fructose, then the liver can become overwhelmed.

 

[Vg3200p]

@woodgeek just out of curiosity do you think all tge pesticides used on vegtables in current production causes I'll effects over a life time of eating them? I have no proof but I sure think it can't be good for you and is probably a big cause of cancer. And I don't think the"organic" label means no pesticides just like "cage free eggs" means no cage but could still have 5k chickens in a barn.

 

[woodgeek]

@woodgeek just out of curiosity do you think all tge pesticides used on vegtables in current production causes I'll effects over a life time of eating them? I have no proof but I sure think it can't be good for you and is probably a big cause of cancer. And I don't think the"organic" label means no pesticides just like "cage free eggs" means no cage but could still have 5k chickens in a barn.

I have not seen any compelling evidence that pesticide residues on fruit and veggies cause cancer.

I know that some fungi that grow on plants create carcinogenic toxins... like aflatoxin on peanuts. In the 20th century some Asian countries grew peanuts with a lot of aflatoxin, and caused a significant amount of cancers. That was figured out and resolved.

The cancer story with public health is IMO mostly happy.

Stomach cancer used to be a big killer.... it was caused by processed meat consumption, which fell after the invention of refrigeration.
Lung cancer used to be a big killer.... now falling fast due to reduced smoking.
Cervical cancer was a big killer... caused by a virus that is now on the decline due to vaccination.

It seems that a lot of cancers were caused by exposure to unburned benzene in gasoline, but the EPA has been reducing the benzene content since the 1980s. I think the corresponding cancers that were climbing rapidly a couple decades ago have now leveled off, and should start to fall.

A lot of blood cancers are very treatable (they even use the 'cure' word) with immunotherapy... I have colleagues working on that.
I know folks are trying to adapt immunotherapy to solid tumors as well... I think that is just a matter of time.

 

[Caw]

The Small Intestine Converts Dietary Fructose into Glucose and Organic Acids - PMC

Excessive consumption of sweets is a risk factor for metabolic syndrome. A major chemical feature of sweets is fructose. Despite strong ties between fructose and disease, the metabolic fate of fructose in mammals remains incompletely understood. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The liver-fructose pathway is just one way in which the body utilizes fructose. The "heavy lifting" is taken care of by the small intestine, which breaks down the fructose into glucose, where it is immediately absorbed. If the small intestine gets too much fructose, then the liver can become overwhelmed.

Fair enough and good to know. We were both right 👍

 

[Vg3200p]

@woodgeek i 100% agree with you about cancer from high processed meats. Any processing on any food removes nutrients and can add nasty chemicals. so the use of roundup on most fields doesn't bother you? It does me I know a few people that got testicular cancer at a young age from applying roundup. This is above my pay grade but I would love to test supermarket fruits and vegtables and see what kind of poisons are on/in them. Maybe I'm wrong and there is next to 0 but roundup/insecticides must be leaching into tge plant somewhat

 

[Vg3200p]

And just as you say that big meat big ag big egg pay to cover up results/ propaganda (and I agree that they probably do) don't you think bigtime pesticide producers do the same. Dow Monsanto dupont those types of company's have more money than God and I'm sure they have thier hands in the gov. Pocket with lots of lobbying power

 

[SpaceBus]

@woodgeek just out of curiosity do you think all tge pesticides used on vegtables in current production causes I'll effects over a life time of eating them? I have no proof but I sure think it can't be good for you and is probably a big cause of cancer. And I don't think the"organic" label means no pesticides just like "cage free eggs" means no cage but could still have 5k chickens in a barn.

USDA Organic does mean no pesticides, that's the whole point. "Cage Free" is totally different and doesn't really have any kind of legal definition. However, eating animals that have eaten pesticides is not much different than eating them yourself.

 

[Vg3200p]

There are "organic" pesticides that they use.

 

[SpaceBus]

There are "organic" pesticides that they use.

Most of the time those "organic pesticides" are diatomaceous earth, vinegar, bleach, soapy water, clay, lemon oil, etc. "Pesticide" just means something that kills pests, it doesn't have to be some kind of synthetic toxin. I literally work at a USDA and MOFGA certified organic farm, and can confirm there are no toxic chemicals used on the poultry, pork, beef, or produce.

 

[Tonty]

just like "cage free eggs" means no cage but could still have 5k chickens in a barn.

Actually the “cage free egg” barns around here have 20,000 chickens in the barn. (Some of my friends have them.) It’s mostly a marketing ploy, as you know. But the chickens can go outdoors at times during the day if they wish and the door is open.

 

[Vg3200p]

@SpaceBus sorry no disrespect meant

 

[woodgeek]

@woodgeek i 100% agree with you about cancer from high processed meats. Any processing on any food removes nutrients and can add nasty chemicals. so the use of roundup on most fields doesn't bother you? It does me I know a few people that got testicular cancer at a young age from applying roundup. This is above my pay grade but I would love to test supermarket fruits and vegtables and see what kind of poisons are on/in them. Maybe I'm wrong and there is next to 0 but roundup/insecticides must be leaching into tge plant somewhat

Agree that a lot of roundup ends up on food. I think sometimes some food crops are grown alternately on land with GMO roundup ready crops... so those crops (mostly wheat IIRC) get some glyco residue. The WHO doesn't like glyco (banned in many countries).

None of that makes me happy... I have heard much speculation, but seen 0 studies.

I have heard that a lot of rice is grown in the Southeast and Texas on former cotton land. And cotton used a lot of arsenic-based pesticides. So the rice picks up the arsenic. Apparently, the arsenic ends up in the bran... so if its milled to white rice, it is OK, but as brown rice, the levels are just below the concern level if you were eating a lot of it.

I buy organic brown rice, which is not grown on those fields.

 

[SpaceBus]

@SpaceBus sorry no disrespect meant

None taken, just trying to educate people. I don't think the USDA organic system is perfect, and honestly I think it's a fantasy. However, one thing they got right is not using pesticides. Some of the rules are downright silly, like you can't feed organic poultry any animal/meat products, but wild Red Jungle fowl and free ranging heritage breeds do eat a lot of animals (bugs, rodents, etc.). So if I raised certified organic poultry I would not be able to feed them the "waste" from cleaning wild caught fish, invasive green crabs from the beach, or any kind of insects. I don't think the USDA cares if the flock eats any bugs or whatever they can catch while on pasture, but the farmer can't introduce any animal products to the diet.

The only part of the USDA organic certification I care about is the lack of toxic chemicals applied to fields, animal drugs, etc.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Some of the rules are downright silly ...

If it is in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), there should be a reference to where it was finalized in the Federal Register (FR). The FR should contain the history of promulgation of the law or regulation. The preamble in the FR should explain the thoughts and data behind the decision. It's an interesting process I was involved in on the FDA side of things in my industry positions.

 

[RockCastile]

The only part of the USDA organic certification I care about is the lack of toxic chemicals applied to fields, animal drugs, etc.

No interest in thread derailment, and totally agree with the spirit of the statement, but I'd put an asterisk beside it w/r/t organic allowance of copper fungicides and the heavy reliance on them for certain large scale organic crops.

 

[SpaceBus]

No interest in thread derailment, and totally agree with the spirit of the statement, but I'd put an asterisk beside it w/r/t organic allowance of copper fungicides and the heavy reliance on them for certain large scale organic crops.

I am not familiar with the environmental damage of copper, but it's pretty benign for most animals, except sheep.

 

[GrumpyDad]

I have not seen any compelling evidence that pesticide residues on fruit and veggies cause cancer.

I know that some fungi that grow on plants create carcinogenic toxins... like aflatoxin on peanuts. In the 20th century some Asian countries grew peanuts with a lot of aflatoxin, and caused a significant amount of cancers. That was figured out and resolved.

The cancer story with public health is IMO mostly happy.

Stomach cancer used to be a big killer.... it was caused by processed meat consumption, which fell after the invention of refrigeration.
Lung cancer used to be a big killer.... now falling fast due to reduced smoking.
Cervical cancer was a big killer... caused by a virus that is now on the decline due to vaccination.

It seems that a lot of cancers were caused by exposure to unburned benzene in gasoline, but the EPA has been reducing the benzene content since the 1980s. I think the corresponding cancers that were climbing rapidly a couple decades ago have now leveled off, and should start to fall.

A lot of blood cancers are very treatable (they even use the 'cure' word) with immunotherapy... I have colleagues working on that.
I know folks are trying to adapt immunotherapy to solid tumors as well... I think that is just a matter of time.

Cancer is sharply on the rise now. My father recently passed from Cancer, zero cancer in the family and he was a health nut.
Cancer was and is the real pandemic. It dwarfs anything that Covid could do even if it were more lethal.
I believe there are many reasons, and having pesticides embedded in fruits/vegetables/wheat is certainly one cause, but you'll never see a study that proves that well enough that people take notice as big food is extremely powerful.
I went on a gluten free diet for 2 months. It was amazing how clear my skin was and how much better my joints felt. It wasnt sustainable for me though as I love that type of food. I do try to use italian flour at home, but it's almost impossible to avoid american wheat.

I also think we are surrounded by thinks that harm our bodies. All the tech, building materials etc.

I also think that stress adds alot to harm the body. Not to mention the top issue which is likely a sedimentary lifestyle.

 

[Shank]

Cancer is sharply on the rise now. My father recently passed from Cancer, zero cancer in the family and he was a health nut.
Cancer was and is the real pandemic. It dwarfs anything that Covid could do even if it were more lethal.
I believe there are many reasons, and having pesticides embedded in fruits/vegetables/wheat is certainly one cause, but you'll never see a study that proves that well enough that people take notice as big food is extremely powerful.
I went on a gluten free diet for 2 months. It was amazing how clear my skin was and how much better my joints felt. It wasnt sustainable for me though as I love that type of food. I do try to use italian flour at home, but it's almost impossible to avoid american wheat.

I also think we are surrounded by thinks that harm our bodies. All the tech, building materials etc.

I also think that stress adds alot to harm the body. Not to mention the top issue which is likely a sedimentary lifestyle.

Commenting on the stress aspect.

I have a relatively low stress job and noticed how much worse I feel after I came back from Christmas break, simply from the stress of work. This was the first time I had really thought of this.

 

[RockCastile]

I am not familiar with the environmental damage of copper, but it's pretty benign for most animals, except sheep.

Cu binds and accumulates in soil where it's applied, and with ongoing use reaches levels toxic to soil microbial life, larger critters like earthworms, potentially even the crop plants themselves. But also troubling data and ongoing research into a dementia link.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...nic agriculture is very dependent,(25% CuSO4).

 

[SpaceBus]

Cu binds and accumulates in soil where it's applied, and with ongoing use reaches levels toxic to soil microbial life, larger critters like earthworms, potentially even the crop plants themselves. But also troubling data and ongoing research into a dementia link.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7356523/#:~:text=Organic agriculture is very dependent,(25% CuSO4).

That is troubling.

 

[woodgeek]

Cancer is sharply on the rise now. My father recently passed from Cancer, zero cancer in the family and he was a health nut.
Cancer was and is the real pandemic. It dwarfs anything that Covid could do even if it were more lethal.
I believe there are many reasons, and having pesticides embedded in fruits/vegetables/wheat is certainly one cause, but you'll never see a study that proves that well enough that people take notice as big food is extremely powerful.
I went on a gluten free diet for 2 months. It was amazing how clear my skin was and how much better my joints felt. It wasnt sustainable for me though as I love that type of food. I do try to use italian flour at home, but it's almost impossible to avoid american wheat.

I also think we are surrounded by thinks that harm our bodies. All the tech, building materials etc.

I also think that stress adds alot to harm the body. Not to mention the top issue which is likely a sedimentary lifestyle.

Sorry about your Father.

Cancer rates in the US are steady to falling. CDC stats are here: https://gis.cdc.gov/Cancer/USCS/#/Trends/

Looks like the rate of new diagnoses (for all cancers) is ~500 per 100,000 peopler per year, or 0.5% per year. This rate appears to be slowly falling over the last 20 years.

Given that cancer is a disease that becomes much more frequent with age, and the US population is aging (+3.4 years over the last 20 years) we would expect diagnoses to climb even if the cancer 'rate' was a constant.

Many of the cancers that we do see are correlated with smoking (declining) or obesity or other dietary factors.

Major environmental carcinogens are benzene in gasoline (partially phased out over the last 40 years by the EPA) and formaldehyde, which as you mentioned outgasses from building materials. Why the countless lives saved by the Clean Air Act restrictions are not touted (or taught in schools) is beyond me.

A lot of fabric goods from overseas are formaldehyde treated for shipment. I always launder new fabric goods before I use/wear them.

 

[clancey]

I'm on as gluten free diet and I really feel better...Sorry about your Dad Grumpy. clancey

 

[ispinwool]

I subscribe to sugar being responsible for obesity and many of the accompanying diseases modern man suffers from. Taking fat out of everything and replacing it with sugar in processed food (just about everything inside the outer perimeter aisles of the grocery store), IMO has led to an alarming global health situation in the developed countries. When the world went berserk over fats, the food industry scrambled to take them out, but the food tasted like cardboard. Enter sugar. It brought the taste back and addicted people. I do NOT subscribe to any type of diet (Keto, Paleo, Vegan, Mediterranean, Plant Based, etc.), but just cut out as much sugar as possible (both obvious and not-so-obvious sugars). I have seen too many people regulate their weight without trying, get off things like cpap's, high blood pressure medication and inflammation medications, and reverse conditions like arthritis, diabetes, etc., just to name a few. For me, I can't believe how much weight I was able to lose without trying, how many pains and ailments disappeared, and the medications I no longer have to take, and how much better I feel. My blood tests are good, and I eat whatever I want, as long as it has no or is very low in refined sugars.

If you look at the mainstream diets today, no matter how different or opposed they are to each other, you'll see the common thread that they are all very low refined sugars.

As far as I am concerned, folks are addicted to sugar, and it is making their life a living hell and killing them.

Here are a few YouTube Vids if you wish to look further into this:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sugar+is+killing+us

Perhaps a little off subject, but I was just thinking of this too...probably the 2nd biggest killer in our diet are the "healthy" vegetable oils that we consume and that are pushed on us by the big food industry. Their unstable and rapid oxidation properties make them toxic. And if you watch a video on how vegetable oils are made, you will probably never eat any of them again.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+is+vegetable+oil+made

Agree 100%

 

[clancey]

I worked for a 99.8 year old lady by the name of Hazel. I asked her one day what would she recommend about diet for her long life. She replied that she never ate sugar or very very little and only uses two tablespoons of milk in her cereal. As a kid she used to give all her milk to her brothers for she hated the taste of milk. (14 children in the family) (1913) But one thing she loved was a good cup of black coffee in the morning...But sugar is the beast she told me...I asked her about the sweets she sometimes eats but she answered "sometimes" she will have some sweets but her advice was definitely no sugar as well as salt...clancey