Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.

[SpaceBus]

Huh. Every animal has to be fed more plant protein than it provides as meat protein. In most cases, that comes from human cultivated wheat and soy.

Reducing meat consumption would reduce the amount of plant protein humans would have to cultivate.

While grazing in principle feeds cattle without agricultural input, only a very small fraction of beef and dairy comes from grazing (despite 25% of the earth being grazed).

And of course wild caught fish would be another such protein source provided by the natural biosphere, but that is not a significant protein source for humans either, currently, and not sustainable either. A lot of unwanted wild fish protein gets fed to animals (including farmed fish) that then are eaten by humans.

Don't get me started on the fisheries... There are just too many problems, and I say this as a lover of seafood.

 

[begreen]

Huh. Every animal has to be fed more plant protein than it provides as meat protein. In most cases, that comes from human cultivated wheat and soy.

Reducing meat consumption would reduce the amount of plant protein humans would have to cultivate.

While grazing in principle feeds cattle without agricultural input, only a very small fraction of beef and dairy comes from grazing (despite 25% of the earth being grazed).

And of course wild caught fish would be another such protein source provided by the natural biosphere, but that is not a significant protein source for humans either, currently, and not sustainable either. A lot of unwanted wild fish protein gets fed to animals (including farmed fish) that then are eaten by humans.

There are also poultry, eggs, cheese, etc. The concept that the world becomes vegan is utopian. It's not going to happen. I am not opposed to vegetarians, I was one for 30 yrs., and we still eat a meat-light diet. The issue is the number of humans on the planet. The concept that the planet will continue to provide an infinite source of nourishment and resources is not realistic.

If we continue at the species extinction rate and humans push the planet to the tipping point of climate change, then alternative sources of protein will become a necessity. This approach is better than soylent green, though the latter kills two birds with one stone he says darkly.

 

[woodgeek]

We went to what was supposed to be the last basketball game at my high school/college gym in March 2020. There was a reception on the court after. An item was Impossible Burger sliders. Way too salty. We don't use much salt in cooking. I checked the sodium content of meat substitues ...

Also high in saturated fat, about the same as a beef burger.

 

[woodgeek]

There are also poultry, eggs, cheese, etc. The concept that the world becomes vegan is utopian. It's not going to happen. I am not opposed to vegetarians, I was one for 30 yrs., and we still eat a meat-light diet. The issue is the number of humans on the planet. The concept that the planet will continue to provide an infinite source of nourishment and resources is not realistic.

If we continue at the species extinction rate and humans push the planet to the tipping point of climate change, then alternative sources of protein will become a necessity. This approach is better than soylent green, though the latter kills two birds with one stone he says darkly.

But the point is that even though animal products (including dairy and eggs for vegetarians) are a major source of protein in the Westen diet... those foods don't magically make protein appear. Animal agriculture requires more cultivated protein be put in the front end than the protein you get out the back end.

I don't expect a vegan world anytime soon.

But eating less meat means LESS demand on agricultural production. And less grazing means less habitat destruction. And less fishing means less over-fishing.

There is also the fact that animal agriculture emits more CO2e than all the world's transportation machines combined (both are about 15%).

Protein efficiency of animal foods here:

Protein efficiency of meat and dairy production

The protein efficiency of meat and dairy production is defined as the percentage of protein inputs as feed effectively converted to animal product. An efficiency of 25% would mean 25% of protein in animal feed inputs were effectively converted to animal product; the remaining 75% would be lost...

ourworldindata.org

 

[begreen]

So eating less meat means LESS demand on agricultural production. And less grazing means less habitat destruction. And less fishing means less over-fishing.

No argument there, but it's not going to happen on the national scale that would be necessary to make a major change.

 

[woodgeek]

No argument there, but it's not going to happen on the national scale that would be necessary to make a major change.

The rate of smoking in the US has fallen about 75% from 1980 because of education, and the truth getting out. The rate of Lung cancer has fallen 50% from its peak, and is still falling fast.

I do think its a travesty that the same government body that supports agriculture also is in charge of nutritional guidelines. The USDA.

We have a obesity and diabetes epidemics in the US (building over decades), both obviously related to diet and nutritional changes... why don't we have a govt agency or taskforce charged with looking at the science and making dietary recommendations to address those problems?

That was actually DONE in the 1970s, and when the report came out (akin to the Surgeon General's report on smoking a decade earlier), it got watered down, the board was disbanded and the USDA put in charge of nutritional guidlelines. The USDA full (naturally) of people from the big food industries. Big Food saw what happened to Tobacco in the 60s and so when the perils of meat eating were looking pretty well demonstrated in the 1970s, they just captured the regulators.

Why are tax dollars used to advertise Beef, Eggs and Dairy? Why are we subsidizing foods that are both unhealthy for us and bad for the environment? Not to mention the school lunch program.

The unsubsidized cost of a hamburger has been quoted at $15. What do they cost in McD's?

The Beef, Egg and Dairy industries makes Big Tobacco and Exxon look like pikers. They have suppressed the science, muddied the waters and owned the regulators and politicians since the 1970s. Big Tobacco kept us confused for 20 years, and Big Oil kept us that way for 30 years about global warming. But the Beef, Egg and Dairy industries are at 50 years and counting.

 

[begreen]

Again, no argument there. One can not sustain infinite extraction from a finite resource. Our extractive, profit-at-all-costs economy will eventually kill us if there is not a major change in direction.

That said, this is a global issue. India just passed China in population. We are a drop in the bucket compared to the Asian population total. Most of India is vegetarian, but food is still a huge issue there.

 

[Caw]

Why are we subsidizing foods that are both unhealthy for us

This is extreme. I don't think you should go advertising that eating meat, eggs, and dairy is unhealthy. People have been eating these things for thousands of years. I have been eating one or more of these things every day for almost 40 years and am perfectly healthy. Normal BMI, cholesterol, blood pressure, you name it. I get all my numbers checked annually. When my body tells me it's time to make a change I will but until then I'm going to eat what I like as it seems to be working just fine.
I understand most of your points and largely agree that they are a reasonable reason to decide to go with a plant based diet. The science is there to take in and you can make whatever choice you see fit. If you want to argue plant based diets are MORE healthy than a traditional diet than that's something to discuss.

 

[woodgeek]

Again, no argument there. One can not sustain infinite extraction from a finite resource. Our extractive, profit-at-all-costs economy will eventually kill us if there is not a major change in direction.

That said, this is a global issue. India just passed China in population. We are a drop in the bucket compared to the Asian population total. Most of India is vegetarian, but food is still a huge issue there.

I think we agree. But the Chindia Point is misleading... our off scale meat and dairy consumption compared to those countries, along with our third most populous status... our US food choices DO matter.

 

[woodgeek]

This is extreme. I don't think you should go advertising that eating meat, eggs, and dairy is unhealthy. People have been eating these things for thousands of years. I have been eating one or more of these things every day for almost 40 years and am perfectly healthy. Normal BMI, cholesterol, blood pressure, you name it. I get all my numbers checked annually. When my body tells me it's time to make a change I will but until then I'm going to eat what I like as it seems to be working just fine.
I understand most of your points and largely agree that they are a reasonable reason to decide to go with a plant based diet. The science is there to take in and you can make whatever choice you see fit. If you want to argue plant based diets are MORE healthy than a traditional diet than that's something to discuss.

The devil is in the details. The dose makes the poison. The case can be made for moderation in all things, including any food.

But we in the US are NOT eating the way we were in 1970. We are eating a lot more MEAT, more DAIRY, more SUGAR, more JUNK FOOD, etc. And we are way more obese, have more cardiovascular disease, CVD, more diabetes, have more of many types of cancer.

We could go back to how we were eating in 1970 and be a lot healthier. Back then we actually ate a lot more whole plants and complex carbs and fiber.

If you ask 10 people what about the 2020 versus 1970 diet is the source of the problem.... you will get 10 different answers. Meat lovers will point at sugar (while eating meat and eggs). Sweet-tooth people will point at meat and eggs (while eating sugar). Vegetarians will say red and processed meat (while eating cheese and eggs).

Nowadays everyone and every podcast has an opinion.

What we need is SCIENCE to figure this out.

And there is plenty of science out there (going back to the 70s) that high saturated fat consumption causes CVD. That is as well demonstrated as cigarettes and lung cancer, and yet the #1 podcast in the US regularly features 'carnivore' doctors touting the health benefits of eating red meat and eggs. And calling vegans 'soy boys'.

And there is good (but less well proven) evidence that low fiber and meat diets cause colon cancer, dairy causes prostate and reproductive cancers. And high fat diets (+ obesity) cause type II diabetes.

And that is 100% consistent with if we all ate like folks did in 1970, we would be healthier. No veganism required.

 

[Caw]

The devil is in the details. The dose makes the poison. The case can be made for moderation in all things, including any food.

But we in the US are NOT eating the way we were in 1970. We are eating a lot more MEAT, more DAIRY, more SUGAR, more JUNK FOOD, etc. And we are way more obese, have more cardiovascular disease, CVD, more diabetes, have more of many types of cancer.

We could go back to how we were eating in 1970 and be a lot healthier. Back then we actually ate a lot more whole plants and complex carbs and fiber.

If you ask 10 people what about the 2020 versus 1970 diet is the source of the problem.... you will get 10 different answers. Meat lovers will point at sugar (while eating meat and eggs). Sweet-tooth people will point at meat and eggs (while eating sugar). Vegetarians will say red and processed meat (while eating cheese and eggs).

Nowadays everyone and every podcast has an opinion.

What we need is SCIENCE to figure this out.

And there is plenty of science out there (going back to the 70s) that high saturated fat consumption causes CVD. That is as well demonstrated as cigarettes and lung cancer, and yet the #1 podcast in the US regularly features 'carnivore' doctors touting the health benefits of eating red meat and eggs. And calling vegans 'soy boys'.

And there is good (but less well proven) evidence that low fiber and meat diets cause colon cancer, dairy causes prostate and reproductive cancers. And high fat diets (+ obesity) cause type II diabetes.

And that is 100% consistent with if we all ate like folks did in 1970, we would be healthier. No veganism required.

My point was more generally speaking. I don't think it's right to go around saying meat, dairy, and eggs are unhealthy like you did a couple posts back.

To me saying a food is unhealthy means that in most circumstances this food is, in simple terms, bad for you in a vacuum. Examples woud be candy or potato chips. They aren't doing much for you but you eat them anyways because the taste good.

A steak, scrambled eggs, or a glass of milk is not unhealthy for you in a vacuum. They provide plenty of positives. If you want to argue that over relying on them in your diet is unhealthy then that is a fair discussion.

That's not what you said though.

 

[woodgeek]

My point was more generally speaking. I don't think it's right to go around saying meat, dairy, and eggs are unhealthy like you did a couple posts back.

To me saying a food is unhealthy means that in most circumstances this food is, in simple terms, bad for you in a vacuum. Examples woud be candy or potato chips. They aren't doing much for you but you eat them anyways because the taste good.

A steak, scrambled eggs, or a glass of milk is not unhealthy for you in a vacuum. They provide plenty of positives. If you want to argue that over relying on them in your diet is unhealthy then that is a fair discussion.

That's not what you said though.

Hmmm. Is smoking healthy? Can I have a few cigs a day, for decades, and die of something else? Yes I can. Does that make smoking a few cigs a day 'healthy'? Does saying how it makes me feel, or how it manages my weight change the calculation?

Just like smoking, the CVD impacts of high saturated fat diets (coming from dairy, chicken and beef in the US) also take DECADES to develop, and by the time you have symptoms... it is often rather late and you need intensive interventions.

The connection between high sat fat diet and CVD is just as solid as smoking and lung cancer. Saying you eat meat and your cholesterol is 'ok' is like saying you were a smoker in 1970, and your doc took a chest Xray and said you were fine. The levels considered 'ok' in the US are quite high compared to those not eating a western diet.

In 1970 going to the doctor and being told you have lung cancer was common... people feared it. Now it isn't. It didn't have to be that way.

 

[Caw]

Hmmm. Is smoking healthy? Can I have a few cigs a day, for decades, and die of something else? Yes I can. Does that make smoking a few cigs a day 'healthy'? Does saying how it makes me feel, or how it manages my weight change the calculation?

Just like smoking, the CVD impacts of high saturated fat diets (coming from dairy, chicken and beef in the US) also take DECADES to develop, and by the time you have symptoms... it is often rather late and you need intensive interventions.

The connection between high sat fat diet and CVD is just as solid as smoking and lung cancer. Saying you eat meat and your cholesterol is 'ok' is like saying you were a smoker in 1970, and your doc took a chest Xray and said you were fine. The levels considered 'ok' in the US are quite high compared to those not eating a western diet.

In 1970 going to the doctor and being told you have lung cancer was common... people feared it. Now it isn't. It didn't have to be that way.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. You cannot compare having a few cigarettes a day to having an egg or a steak once in a while. That is honestly ridiculous and frankly insulting you'd even try to get away with it.

A steak, an egg, or a glass of milk occasionally offers plenty of nutritional benefits. Do they have nutritional downsides? Sure. A lot of things do. Unlike cigarettes which are purely bad for you. They are known carcinogens.

Me saying I eat meat and my cholesterol is ok is not a snapshot. I've eaten the same way for my entire adult life which is over 20 years and the numbers have not budged. That is quite a sample size. If/when they do move (due to age, diet, or both) I will make the necessary changes.

I'm not asking you to eat meat. I'm not going to be a vegan. That's fine. Like I said before, you make a lot of good points...but you're also making some kind of outlandish ones in my opinion which is why I replied. It would be nice to be able to discuss it like adults and cut down on the generalizations and capitalizations while doing so. If not I think that's enough for me and wish you the best.

 

[woodgeek]

I don't think you understand what I am saying. You cannot compare having a few cigarettes a day to having an egg or a steak once in a while. That is honestly ridiculous and frankly insulting you'd even try to get away with it.

A steak, an egg, or a glass of milk occasionally offers plenty of nutritional benefits. Do they have nutritional downsides? Sure. A lot of things do. Unlike cigarettes which are purely bad for you. They are known carcinogens.

Me saying I eat meat and my cholesterol is ok is not a snapshot. I've eaten the same way for my entire adult life which is over 20 years and the numbers have not budged. That is quite a sample size. If/when they do move (due to age, diet, or both) I will make the necessary changes.

I'm not asking you to eat meat. I'm not going to be a vegan. That's fine. Like I said before, you make a lot of good points...but you're also making some kind of outlandish ones in my opinion which is why I replied. It would be nice to be able to discuss it like adults and cut down on the generalizations and capitalizations while doing so. If not I think that's enough for me and wish you the best.

I'm not telling you what to eat.

But in 1970 lots of folks thought smoking had benefits. A stimulant like caffeine which is useful in many situations like driving. Helps control appetite to maintain a healthy/attractive weight. Pregnant moms (like mine) were told to smoke to reduce their pregnancy weight gain. Folks got a lot of enjoyment and socialization from it. It was ubiquitous. Watch movies from the 50s, smoking is fetishized and entwined with food and romance and sex.

And now we think of all of that as rather strange. Those 'benefits' (which folks a the time considered significant) are now seen to be outweighed by the downsides. As in, you don't NEED to smoke. And caffeine is safer.

More to the point... the dose matters. I never said a steak or an egg once 'in a while' is dangerous. It depends on the definition of 'once in a while'. If I was a so-so vegan, and had an egg and a steak once a month, I would expect no measurable health effects at all.
If however, my 'once in a while' is that I eat eggs, cheese and meat every day... well, now that IS measurably dangerous.

Same as if I smoke a pack a day, or bum one cig every week when I am out for a beer. The dose matters.

I have no idea how you eat, or what 'once in a while' means to you. At all. But me saying that a high saturated fat diet causes CVD, in fact most of the CVD that is the #1 killer of Americans... that's scientifically accepted, and has been for decades. IS that a problem for your diet... I have no idea at all.

Peace.

------

Known carcinogen? The WHO lists processed meat (i.e. bacon) as a Class 1 carcinogen, beef as a Class 2A carcinogen. And yet a cancer clinic will serve bacon and hot dogs in the cafeteria. Should they have a smoking room and cigarette vending machines too?

Is it outlandish or ridiculous for the WHO to say that? For me to post it?

Right now, a lot of places offer a 'calcium scan' of coronary arteries, or a CAC. Its a cheap test that makes clinics money. A lot of folks walk around with high LDL cholesterol (and maybe high blood pressure) and think 'my CAC is 0, so I'm aok'. The problem is that by the time you have enough coronary calcification to show up on the CAC scan, you are already in trouble.

This is no different than folks getting a chest Xray in 1970, and being told 'no cancer' and then thinking 'I'm all good, I've been smoking for 20 years and it hasn't hurt me at all, and continuing a pack a day habit.'

 

[Caw]

Nobody is arguing with you that CVD is not a real risk. I'm not arguing that veganism is bad. I've actually tried to say I support you doing what you'd like and there are good facts out there. The way you are comparing eating meat to smoking is absolutely positively ridiculous though. You should really stick with your other arguments.

You can make anything suit your argument. Let's say for example (fully made up numbers here) I am baseline 1% at risk for colon cancer and if I'm a regular meat water my risk is THREE TIMES GREATER. It sure sounds terrible. But in reality it's 3% vs 1% aka who cares I'm going to eat what I like.

I tell you my LDL is completely normal. Same with BP, BMI, and any other measurable number over the last 20 years yet you're telling me I'm a ticking CVD timebomb...laughable Talking about people walking around with high LDL saying they are fine is completely different and off topic. That's obviously a horrible idea.

I'm getting more worked up than I meant to and am going to call it quits here I wish you good luck on your vegan mission. Again, you make a lot of good points. Being fanatical about it is one of the major reasons people don't want to listen though. It's hard for an educated person to read through the capitalization, dramatization, and frankly ridiculous comparisons and take it seriously.

 

[Vg3200p]

Woodgeek always has to be right lol. No point in arguing him. He's apparently the smartest man in every thread he makes. Thus is a common theme in woodgeek threads

 

[woodgeek]

Woodgeek always has to be right lol. No point in arguing him. He's apparently the smartest man in every thread he makes. Thus is a common theme in woodgeek threads

Hey! I resemble that remark.

I can be an arrogant so and so, sorry. But I'm here because I learn stuff from you guys, honestly.

I started this thread, so I'm posting here a bit.

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm all for $15/burgers, that will get diets to change really fast.

 

[Vg3200p]

Woodgeek your obviously very intelligent and im happy that veganism works for you. I also think you bring up a lot of good reasonable points/facts. In the multiple threads we have interacted in. I respect your opinions even though most things we greatly disagree on lol. I think not intentionally alot of your responses seem to talk down(again not intentionally) to other grown ass men who are probably equally as smart(myself not included I could never have graduated college). I do enjoy reading some of your information as alot of it I would never have thought of.

 

[SpaceBus]

If grown-ass men are going to say things, they should expect to be criticized and take it accordingly. That's what makes a man grown-ass vs childlike.

 

[woodgeek]

Nobody is arguing with you that CVD is not a real risk. I'm not arguing that veganism is bad. I've actually tried to say I support you doing what you'd like and there are good facts out there. The way you are comparing eating meat to smoking is absolutely positively ridiculous though. You should really stick with your other arguments.

You can make anything suit your argument. Let's say for example (fully made up numbers here) I am baseline 1% at risk for colon cancer and if I'm a regular meat water my risk is THREE TIMES GREATER. It sure sounds terrible. But in reality it's 3% vs 1% aka who cares I'm going to eat what I like.

I tell you my LDL is completely normal. Same with BP, BMI, and any other measurable number over the last 20 years yet you're telling me I'm a ticking CVD timebomb...laughable Talking about people walking around with high LDL saying they are fine is completely different and off topic. That's obviously a horrible idea.

I'm getting more worked up than I meant to and am going to call it quits here I wish you good luck on your vegan mission. Again, you make a lot of good points. Being fanatical about it is one of the major reasons people don't want to listen though. It's hard for an educated person to read through the capitalization, dramatization, and frankly ridiculous comparisons and take it seriously.

Cool. Sounds like you have a solid handle on your health and diet, and we agree about the (statistical, long-term) perils of _excessive_ saturated fat consumption.

We disagree about tactics about how to convince a skeptical person or fence-sitter of the merits of eating less meat or dairy, or perhaps more whole plants or fiber. Do we hit people over the head with FACTS in CAPITALS () or do we nudge them in the right direction with gentle persuasion and compelling plant-based recipes? My tendencies are clear, but I won't claim that my approach works better than the alternatives.

Re the smoking analogy, it has two parts.

1. The idea that Big Food (beef, dairy, eggs) is acting like Big Tobacco and Big Oil did in the past, paying off politicians with donations, and hiring folks to publish junk science that muddies the waters about the safety of their products. Is that ridiculous?

The current situation with the USDA making dietary recs is as if the Surgeon General's office, after releasing its 'bombshell report in 1964, was forced to rewrite the report, and then made a part of the Ag department for the last 50 years, where it is put out tax payer funded ad campaigns from time to time about how 'Tobacco does a body good!' and gave out free cigs in high schools. Literally.

2. The other idea is that eating meat or eggs or dairy today is culturally like smoking cigarettes was in the 1970s, or as unsafe. Maybe I'm older than you (I'm almost 55), but I grew up surrounded by adults smoking like chimneys and blowing smoke in my face, while I had lots of childhood respiratory problems. In the 80s I was old enough to hear all the news stories about how the science on tobacco wasn't settled, and news outlets having gotcha headlines about how some aspect of smoking was actually ok. And seeing all those ads for filtered cigs and low tar cigs, and the weasly implications that they were safer.

With that memory in my head, I see the current fetishization of 'protein' as if its something that magically appears in meat and dairy and is wholly absent in plants. I see the popularity of diets like Atkins, keto, carnivore, paleo, and low-carb, peddled by an army of influencers, without any scientific basis. And I see that in the face several decades of evidence (validated by many international scientific bodies) that high saturated fat is a risk factor for 4 of the top 5 killers in America. To me it feels very much the same as the attitude about smoking I heard from media and the adults in my life when I was a teen. Thus the analogy.

Ofc, 1 and 2 go together. One begets the other.

Perhaps we can agree that the situation is ridiculous.

 

[woodgeek]

Woodgeek your obviously very intelligent and im happy that veganism works for you. I also think you bring up a lot of good reasonable points/facts. In the multiple threads we have interacted in. I respect your opinions even though most things we greatly disagree on lol. I think not intentionally alot of your responses seem to talk down(again not intentionally) to other grown ass men who are probably equally as smart(myself not included I could never have graduated college). I do enjoy reading some of your information as alot of it I would never have thought of.

Again, I am pedantic and sorry to offend or talk down.

One problem is that on the internet, no one can tell you're a dog. In real life, my utter ridiculousness is readily apparent.

 

[Tonty]

While there is some truth to this, hardships develop solutions that can become cultural and a preferred way of life. In Mexico and Colombia, people pay for insects as snacks. Some, like the big-bottomed ants in Colombia, demand a premium price that poor folks can't afford.

I realize this; I’ve seen it also. But I wasn’t talking about the folks who can afford better. I’ve sat in mud huts and eaten native food with people who live a subsistence life. Those were the people I was talking about. It changes a persons view on food and the mainstream U.S. perspective on food choices. I’m not saying that we need to change our choices, just that we should be thankful we have a choice.

 

[clancey]

I think everybody should eat what they like and keep up with their health with the people you call professionals. Its always nice to read different informational topics but if a person is just not interested in it they just read the first three lines. Personally at this time in my life I do not trust any of the so called pundits meaning politics, medical and ponzi schemes as well. We know the basics and we know what we cannot eat and at least we try to do the very best we can to keep ourselves healthy especially at our different ages and through age and maturation we eventually learn to care for ourselves. Thanks for the added information for your heart was good on trying to make this forum making healthy choices but I will eat what I want and trust in my own judgement whether good or bad...Interesting thread--thank you...I need to be careful here because I have two strikes and the third one I think will throw me off the forum so I cannot say what I want to say---lol old clancey

 

[PaulOinMA]

When I was hungry as a kid, I grabbed a carrot. My parents didn't have a lot of junk food in the house. When we had it, it was a treat.

We didn't snack and eat between meals as has become customary.

Had a business trip to Australia 32 years ago. Best looking people my wife and I have ever seen. Was told that they emphasize physical education in schools with activities that can be continued as adults.

I mentioned this on a car web site a while ago. Someone in Australia said U.S.-sized portions of food have made their way to Australia.