Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.

[SpaceBus]

Here are two papers that suggest otherwise:
1. https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(19)30508-6/pdf
2. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2016.00185/full

The first is an older paper that measured colonic absorption of 3 SCFAs in vivo in humans.
The second describes the formation of SCFAs in the colon, and their transport to the liver, in more detail.

The amount of SCFAs is not small, but they don't need to be nutritionally relevant to be part of the satiety response.

I'm not saying the SCFA/VFA have no use in the body, simply that they are not nutritionally relevant if produced in areas they can't be absorbed. I'm surprised to hear that VFA can be absorbed in the hind gut, because my animal nutrition lectures and materials did not say this. Your links are the only sources I've found that indicate the colon can absorb fats and protein.

 

[woodgeek]

I'm not saying the SCFA/VFA have no use in the body, simply that they are not nutritionally relevant if produced in areas they can't be absorbed. I'm surprised to hear that VFA can be absorbed in the hind gut, because my animal nutrition lectures and materials did not say this. Your links are the only sources I've found that indicate the colon can absorb fats and protein.

The second paper, ofc, is a review that cites dozens of other papers over the last 20 years that look at absorption and metabolism of small molecules by the human colon.

They say that 'the colon only absorbs water and salts' was the canon decades ago, and we now know that the colon can also absorb a number of other small molecules... at least three SCFAs, some B vitamins, biotin and vitamin K, and small organic nitrogen molecules. The vitamins have specific transporters that are expressed in the colon.

The review talks about how the SCFAs get shipped to the liver by the hepatic vein, and used as substrates for fatty acid synthesis, and mention that a dearth of SCFAs (due to a lack of complex carbs/correct microbiome) may contribute to perturbed lipid chemistry and metabolic disorders in the Western diet. Ofc, this remains a hypothesis.

Radiolabel Nitrogen on amino acids (AAs) placed in the colon also show up in proteins throughout the body. It is not clear if the AAs are directly absorbed or if bacteria are breaking down the AAs into smaller nitrogen containing species that get absorbed, and used in AA synthesis in the liver. Evidence seems to point to the latter.

Evidence that the amount of absorption of any of these species in biologically essential amounts is lacking. But they seem to be happening is measurable amounts for many species.

 

[SpaceBus]

The second paper, ofc, is a review that cites dozens of other papers over the last 20 years that look at absorption and metabolism of small molecules by the human colon.

They say that 'the colon only absorbs water and salts' was the canon decades ago, and we now know that the colon can also absorb a number of other small molecules... at least three SCFAs, some B vitamins, biotin and vitamin K, and small organic nitrogen molecules. The vitamins have specific transporters that are expressed in the colon.

The review talks about how the SCFAs get shipped to the liver by the hepatic vein, and used as substrates for fatty acid synthesis, and mention that a dearth of SCFAs (due to a lack of complex carbs/correct microbiome) may contribute to perturbed lipid chemistry and metabolic disorders in the Western diet. Ofc, this remains a hypothesis.

Radiolabel Nitrogen on amino acids (AAs) placed in the colon also show up in proteins throughout the body. It is not clear if the AAs are directly absorbed or if bacteria are breaking down the AAs into smaller nitrogen containing species that get absorbed, and used in AA synthesis in the liver. Evidence seems to point to the latter.

Evidence that the amount of absorption of any of these species in biologically essential amounts is lacking. But they seem to be happening is measurable amounts for many species.

To be honest, I've always doubted the "only water and salt" claim by my nutrition instructor and course materials, because many mammals do the huge bulk of their digestion in the hind gut/large intestine (including colon). In fact the majority of game animals on my property are hind gut fermenters; deer, squirrels, and snowshoe hares, all three of which also lack gallbladders for digesting lipids in the "fore gut" (stomach and small intestine) and depend on microbial digestion in the hind gut for all lipids. Speaking of the gallbladder, the fact that we have one at all tells me that humans are evolved/adapted to eat meat, specifically the fats found in animals.

I am in total agreement that the current status quo for farming animals is not working. As you said, even grazing cattle is not going to do anything for us. Still, I'm firm in my position that we are simply farming the wrong types of animals. Most animals chosen for domestication/agriculture is simply because they are herd animals that can eat things that humans can easily provide. I believe that a "wild human" diet would be mostly grains, legumes, and animals that can be caught without complex tools (sedentary or sessile shellfish, shallow water finfish, small mammals, "bugs", etc.). Essentially your WFPB diet, but without any larger mammal input. The future certainly does not have cattle as a primary food animal, but I think smaller multi-purpose animals (sheep, goats, camelids) will remain in our diets, even if in smaller amounts. Perhaps aquaculture could become a more prominent part of agriculture, which may help provide animal based foods with less carbon emissions. Specifically I think bivalve shellfish will be a large part of our diets in the future.

 

[Poindexter]

So data point. I upped my game from 5-7 vegetables daily. About five days ago I increased to 10-15 servings of vegetables daily and I feel like a million bucks.

A (14 oz) can of spinach or green beans is 3 servings of high quality fuel. While perhaps an unfamiliar taste to most Americans, it is the flavor of wholesome goodness - and the whole point of eating is to fuel the body, not seduce the tongue or entertain the brain.

I have made no other changes to my diet. Just get the vegetables in and eat whatever.

 

[semipro]

So data point. I upped my game from 5-7 vegetables daily. About five days ago I increased to 10-15 servings of vegetables daily and I feel like a million bucks.

A (14 oz) can of spinach or green beans is 3 servings of high quality fuel. While perhaps an unfamiliar taste to most Americans, it is the flavor of wholesome goodness - and the whole point of eating is to fuel the body, not seduce the tongue or entertain the brain.

I have made no other changes to my diet. Just get the vegetables in and eat whatever.

Nice1
Funny, I keep canned green beans at work as a lunch option. Don't even need a can opener with the new style cans.

 

[EbS-P]

Report from the trenches. Still working trough the 30# of beef I smoked over the holidays. But for the last two weeks 4/5 week day dinners were vegetarian with at least 2-3 full vegan. Last night was roasted cauliflower, Brussel sprouts and home made bread. Kids didn’t complain. Let them have what ever sauce or dressings they could find in the fridge.

We will have fish tomorrow. I’m definitely hungrier. I have a few holiday pounds to lose.

I’m committing to a hydroponic garden. We will see how that goes. And I’m going to to make a non alcoholic (or at least 1% or less) beer. Looking forward to that.

I need more kid friendly veggie recipes. Man it’s hard to get 5 a day in them. They do ok if we add fruit.

 

[SpaceBus]

So data point. I upped my game from 5-7 vegetables daily. About five days ago I increased to 10-15 servings of vegetables daily and I feel like a million bucks.

A (14 oz) can of spinach or green beans is 3 servings of high quality fuel. While perhaps an unfamiliar taste to most Americans, it is the flavor of wholesome goodness - and the whole point of eating is to fuel the body, not seduce the tongue or entertain the brain.

I have made no other changes to my diet. Just get the vegetables in and eat whatever.

Agree to disagree. If this flesh mobile requires fuel, I will only chose things I enjoy eating. Thankfully, healthy food can also be enjoyable.

 

[SpaceBus]

I was thinking about this topic this morning while getting feed ready for my chickens and alpacas. The crops grown for animal feed are not usually considered food grade by humans. Jeremey Clarkson made a sort of documentary show about him trying to operate a farm. Obviously this is for entertainment, but there is one part where Clarkson is trying to sell his wheat (could have been barley) harvest. Clarkson was worried that his wheat would not be high enough quality for human consumption and would be sold at a much lower value for chicken feed.

 

[EbS-P]

I was thinking about this topic this morning while getting feed ready for my chickens and alpacas. The crops grown for animal feed are not usually considered food grade by humans. Jeremey Clarkson made a sort of documentary show about him trying to operate a farm. Obviously this is for entertainment, but there is one part where Clarkson is trying to sell his wheat (could have been barley) harvest. Clarkson was worried that his wheat would not be high enough quality for human consumption and would be sold at a much lower value for chicken feed.

No distinction was made in our farming community. It all went to the the same elevator. When it was full it got piled on the ground. Moved by front end loaders. The exception is now the GMO and organic, those must be separated. We pulled corn off the truck to burn. Would sift and mill. Wheat we would usually pull off the seed truck as it had been cleaned once more.

Smaller markets may do thing differently.

 

[EbS-P]

Another if @woodgeek ’s thread has influenced real change. Brewed my first batch of nonalcoholic beer Figure I’m not going 100% vegan so cutting alcohol consumption down has to help right

All grain super simple. Cold mash 3.25# of malt. In 2-3 gallons of 37 degree water for 24 hours. Decant off all the start sludge. Bring up to 150F and hold for a 1 hour mash. Then boil for an hour with hops. Cool and pitch yeast. It should finish out at .4-.5 ABV.

 

[Poindexter]

I opened another can of spinach this morning, and it was revolting. I am doing good for breakfast with 2 servings of good sauerkraut (only a few tablespoons) and oatmeal with berries and some butter.

I was doing OK with a can of spinach or green beans for breakfast as well, just a can opener and a fork, but not today. Previously I had been getting out the door in an hour with 5 veg already on board.

I am trying to be very intentional about this with a recent job and schedule change. Especially intentional about the difference about how food feels to my emotions as comfort versus how food feels to my body as fuel. It is emotionally very satisfying to have pizza delivered and use the remote on my couch to recline my seat of an evening, but I am making a point to associate the idea of 'bad" with that metabolic state.

I am 100% convinced we are physiologically meant to graze for a big piece of our volume intake. At my home hospital, on my floor, we are seeing the surge in all three current respiratory viruses; but physiologically comparing external stress to internal equanimity there is no doubt having five servings of dark leafy green vegetables every day has allowed many of the "best" days of my life to have occurred in 2023.

All the pretty colors are good for a wide pallet of antioxidants and balanced nutrition and some variety; but I can honestly say the more dark leafy green vegetables I eat, the better my body feels and the calmer I am.

But canned spinach is revolting. I am going to stock up on frozen broccoli my next day off, and I am going to have to start playing with fresh kale. I will explore how small amount of salt pork I can use to make edible collard greens.

 

[EbS-P]

I opened another can of spinach this morning, and it was revolting. I am doing good for breakfast with 2 servings of good sauerkraut (only a few tablespoons) and oatmeal with berries and some butter.

I was doing OK with a can of spinach or green beans for breakfast as well, just a can opener and a fork, but not today. Previously I had been getting out the door in an hour with 5 veg already on board.

I am trying to be very intentional about this with a recent job and schedule change. Especially intentional about the difference about how food feels to my emotions as comfort versus how food feels to my body as fuel. It is emotionally very satisfying to have pizza delivered and use the remote on my couch to recline my seat of an evening, but I am making a point to associate the idea of 'bad" with that metabolic state.

I am 100% convinced we are physiologically meant to graze for a big piece of our volume intake. At my home hospital, on my floor, we are seeing the surge in all three current respiratory viruses; but physiologically comparing external stress to internal equanimity there is no doubt having five servings of dark leafy green vegetables every day has allowed many of the "best" days of my life to have occurred in 2023.

All the pretty colors are good for a wide pallet of antioxidants and balanced nutrition and some variety; but I can honestly say the more dark leafy green vegetables I eat, the better my body feels and the calmer I am.

But canned spinach is revolting. I am going to stock up on frozen broccoli my next day off, and I am going to have to start playing with fresh kale. I will explore how small amount of salt pork I can use to make edible collard greens.

Canned spinach is the worst canned green. We all the southern varieties down here. All are 1000% better than spinach. Collard, mustard, mixed. I should start making breakfast smoothies again.

 

[woodgeek]

Canned spinach is the worst canned green. We all the southern varieties down here. All are 1000% better than spinach. Collard, mustard, mixed. I should start making breakfast smoothies again.

Breakfast for me is either a cereal with oat milk and a banana on the side, or steel cut oats with wild blueberries sweetened with half a banana.

My lunch/dinner staples these days are whole grains (bread and wild/brown rice blends and quinoa) and 'protein+' pasta (partially legumes) and lots of legumes (beans are usually canned from Goya for convenience). These can be made into spicy black bean burritos, lentil-based bolognese-style pasta sauce, bean and quinoa chili, and an italian white bean soup, etc. The side is a steamed veggie or another starch like white or sweet potato with various sauces.

Avocado serves whereever I previously would have added cheddar, e.g. to burrito.

When I have a yen for scrambled egg, I scramble a 'Just Egg' substitute, and top it with Indian 'black salt' that imparts a slightly sulfurous note like a real egg. This is great on an avocado toast (in lieu of my earlier scramble on cheddar toast).

I have also joined the WFPB club, and gotten a high powered blender, the Vitamix 7500.

The cookbook I posted earlier has a lot of recipes with rich, 'creamy' and savory sauces and soups. These are mostly formed by the blender pulverization of cashews and other unroasted nuts and seeds to form a cream base.

A 'cheesy' flavor is provided by powdered 'nutritional yeast', which is known in the tribe as 'nooch'. Sometimes complemented by white miso paste.

More traditionally, flavors can be added to the 'cashew cream' via sauteed onions, garlic, celery, etc or things like butternut squash. All micronized to a super smooth cream by the Vitamix's powerful motor in 60 seconds or so.

My 22 yo who is a very picky eater and loves mac and cheese has encouraged me to cook vegan for them when they are visiting from college. I had success with a butternut squash + miso + nooch 'alfredo' sauce recently, which they happily ate over pasta.

Ofc, the Vitamix would also make a very smooth smoothie. But I have not yet gone down the path. I am more hooked on crucifers (cauli, broccoli and brussel sprouts) than leafy greens. I do tend to find that frozen spinach works out ok incorporated into other recipes.

 

[EbS-P]

Breakfast for me is either a cereal with oat milk and a banana on the side, or steel cut oats with wild blueberries sweetened with half a banana.

My lunch/dinner staples these days are whole grains (bread and wild/brown rice blends and quinoa) and 'protein+' pasta (partially legumes) and lots of legumes (beans are usually canned from Goya for convenience). These can be made into spicy black bean burritos, lentil-based bolognese-style pasta sauce, bean and quinoa chili, and an italian white bean soup, etc. The side is a steamed veggie or another starch like white or sweet potato with various sauces.

Avocado serves whereever I previously would have added cheddar, e.g. to burrito.

When I have a yen for scrambled egg, I scramble a 'Just Egg' substitute, and top it with Indian 'black salt' that imparts a slightly sulfurous note like a real egg. This is great on an avocado toast (in lieu of my earlier scramble on cheddar toast).

I have also joined the WFPB club, and gotten a high powered blender, the Vitamix 7500.

The cookbook I posted earlier has a lot of recipes with rich, 'creamy' and savory sauces and soups. These are mostly formed by the blender pulverization of cashews and other unroasted nuts and seeds to form a cream base.

A 'cheesy' flavor is provided by powdered 'nutritional yeast', which is known in the tribe as 'nooch'. Sometimes complemented by white miso paste.

More traditionally, flavors can be added to the 'cashew cream' via sauteed onions, garlic, celery, etc or things like butternut squash. All micronized to a super smooth cream by the Vitamix's powerful motor in 60 seconds or so.

My 22 yo who is a very picky eater and loves mac and cheese has encouraged me to cook vegan for them when they are visiting from college. I had success with a butternut squash + miso + nooch 'alfredo' sauce recently, which they happily ate over pasta.

Ofc, the Vitamix would also make a very smooth smoothie. But I have not yet gone down the path. I am more hooked on crucifers (cauli, broccoli and brussel sprouts) than leafy greens. I do tend to find that frozen spinach works out ok incorporated into other recipes.

Could not bring myself to use nutritional yeast in the butternut Mac and cheese last night. It got real cheese. Usually we make it with squash and tofu. Not a lot. I made a “cheddar cheese” sauce with the yeast that with some tweaks could be ok.

 

[woodgeek]

Could not bring myself to use nutritional yeast in the butternut Mac and cheese last night. It got real cheese. Usually we make it with squash and tofu. Not a lot. I made a “cheddar cheese” sauce with the yeast that with some tweaks could be ok.

I've tried a few iterations. Nooch is not cheese, and can be a bit of an acquired taste. I think many long-term vegans forget what cheese tastes like and learn to like nooch to varying degrees. For example, sprinkling it on popcorn, which is not something I am ready for yet.

One cashew cream + nooch recipe I made had a quarter cup of nooch, and came close to Kraft orange mac and cheeze, but with a slight nooch off-taste, but otherwise shockingly close. The pairing with squash and white miso was a lot milder and closer to an alfredo, and only had a couple tablespoons of the nooch.

I'm still having fun, and my blood pressure continues to march downward, now often in the normal range, versus Stage II hypertension last fall.

That said, a mac and cheese made with butternut and (presumably less) cheese, versus a mac and cheese loaded with straight cheddar bechamel... probably a much healthier choice and closer to a WFPB goal.

 

[Tonty]

Also, there is plenty of evidence of humans eating insects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entomophagy_in_humans

It could be argued that in many non-Western cultures, eating insects is more common than eating dairy.

I didn’t read every word in these posts. I don’t need to. But this made me laugh. Of course people in other parts of the world consume insects. I have myself while we lived in Africa. Fried termites are good. Charcoaled/dried caterpillar type worms aren’t.
In that part of the world, they don’t eat more insects than dairy because the want to. They just have more insects available to them than dairy products. It’s a hard life. People here can afford to be vegans. Most people in third world countries only have the luxury of “eating to live,” and even then starve sometimes. Count it a privilege that you have the luxury of choosing to “live to eat.”

 

[Caw]

IDK. I respect everyone's life choices and decision to be vegan. If that's what you're into good for you and enjoy. You'll have to take my meat and carbs from my cold dead from CVD hands though. Nothing makes me happier than food in life and I just don't see any world where converting would be possible for me.
Just my 2 cents from a carnivore that eats vegetables because I have to (even though I do enjoy them).

Good luck!

 

[begreen]

They just have more insects available to them than dairy products. It’s a hard life.

While there is some truth to this, hardships develop solutions that can become cultural and a preferred way of life. In Mexico and Colombia, people pay for insects as snacks. Some, like the big-bottomed ants in Colombia, demand a premium price that poor folks can't afford.

 

[begreen]

While this discussion has been focused on changing human consumption, habits, changing animal consumption habits can have a positive effect on the environment too. Instead of deriving protein supplements for cattle from soy, which is in part devastating the Amazon basin, how about alternative protein sources like insects?

Or, even more interesting, how about creating proteins for human and animal consumption from CO2? This process needs magnitudes less water and land to accomplish and is carbon negative. Sound like the future? Actually, an Austrian company is currently doing this. It will be interesting to watch this process develop.

https://arkeon.bio

 

[woodgeek]

While this discussion has been focused on changing human consumption, habits, changing animal consumption habits can have a positive effect on the environment too. Instead of deriving protein supplements for cattle from soy, which is in part devastating the Amazon basin, how about alternative protein sources like insects?

Or, even more interesting, how about creating proteins for human and animal consumption from CO2? This process needs magnitudes less water and land to accomplish and is carbon negative. Sound like the future? Actually, an Austrian company is currently doing this. It will be interesting to watch this process develop.

https://arkeon.bio

Or alternatively we can just get the protein from where all the animal and insects get it from... the plants they eat.

 

[begreen]

Or alternatively we can just get the protein from where all the animal and insects get it from... the plants they eat.

That requires a lot of land and water. Not a problem with a couple billion people on the planet. Big problem with 8 billion and growing. Even if the synthesized proteins were not used for humans, they would have a major benefit in providing animal protein. The fact that this process can reduce CO2 emissions is a bonus.

 

[woodgeek]

IDK. I respect everyone's life choices and decision to be vegan. If that's what you're into good for you and enjoy. You'll have to take my meat and carbs from my cold dead from CVD hands though. Nothing makes me happier than food in life and I just don't see any world where converting would be possible for me.
Just my 2 cents from a carnivore that eats vegetables because I have to (even though I do enjoy them).

Good luck!

I hear you! I love my old foods, and was a huge cook, griller and baker. But the good news is that I am still happy and excited by my food!

The strategy here is to expand the overall range of foods and flavors that you are eating. I have added a lot of new veggies, fruits, seasonings and sauces to the rotation, and still don't eat a lot of salads. Meat doesn't have much unique flavor beyond savory and fat... and its easy to make vegan dishes that taste like both of those things. Dairy imparts a creamy quality to a lot of sauces... but that is easily replicated in non-dairy sauces as well. Eggs are essential to baked goods... but there are a lot of egg substitution tricks there too.

Most commercial 'meat substitutes' are less healthy than 'whole plant' based foods, but are fine for a portion of the overall diet. So I know that I can still have a vegan burger or pizza or whatever so I don't feel like that is 'forbidden fruit' that I am being denied.

In the end, this approach has been working well so far... I feel like I am eating a much larger variety of foods, and can still have (substitutes for) my favorite meat and cheese based foods when I have a yen.

 

[PaulOinMA]

I have made no other changes to my diet. Just get the vegetables in and eat whatever.

Same here.

Four days a week my wife does hot cocoa and I do a SlimFast or Carnation Breakfast Essentials drink for breakfast. Two days a week is something else, oatmeal, or the like. My wife does a cinnamon roll every Friday. We fast one day a week during the day.

Lunch is salad, yogurt, fruit, cheese every day.

Dinner is whatever we want. Not heavy on meat at all.

We're not vegetarian, but certainly eat a lot less meat than we had growing up.

 

[woodgeek]

That requires a lot of land and water. Not a problem with a couple billion people on the planet. Big problem with 8 billion and growing. Even if the synthesized proteins were not used for humans, they would have a major benefit in providing animal protein. The fact that this process can reduce CO2 emissions is a bonus.

Huh. Every animal has to be fed more plant protein than it provides as meat protein. In most cases, that comes from human cultivated wheat and soy.

Reducing meat consumption would reduce the amount of plant protein humans would have to cultivate.

While grazing in principle feeds cattle without agricultural input, only a very small fraction of beef and dairy comes from grazing (despite 25% of the earth being grazed).

And of course wild caught fish would be another such protein source provided by the natural biosphere, but that is not a significant protein source for humans either, currently, and not sustainable either. A lot of unwanted wild fish protein gets fed to animals (including farmed fish) that then are eaten by humans.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Most commercial 'meat substitutes' are less healthy than 'whole plant' based foods, but are fine for a portion of the overall diet.

We went to what was supposed to be the last basketball game at my high school/college gym in March 2020. There was a reception on the court after. An item was Impossible Burger sliders. Way too salty. We don't use much salt in cooking. I checked the sodium content of meat substitues ...