No supporting feet. I even asked my dealer at install if there were leveling feet. He said no. As far as I can see ther is NO SUPPORT or a mechanism for any additional support.
Trouble!!
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Lab testing would not show a defect like this since they do not do this kind of destructive testing (over many cycles)....
But common sense would.
I always prefer structural components held from BELOW rather than from above. Certainly you can do it from above (bridges and elevators), but you have to be very careful to "overbuild". Perhaps the solution is as easy as a couple angle irons under the box that go across and are full welded to the shroud.
But common sense would.
I always prefer structural components held from BELOW rather than from above. Certainly you can do it from above (bridges and elevators), but you have to be very careful to "overbuild". Perhaps the solution is as easy as a couple angle irons under the box that go across and are full welded to the shroud.
Gunner said:
I looked, but didn't find detailed diagrams of the shroud. Kind of a moot point now that we have the "collapsed view" posted here.
Gunner said:
The closest to an exploded view is a side view cut-away drawing in the manal having to do with flue connection. It does not show anything under the firebox and there is no mention of anything for leveling or anything else in the manual. One of the things in play here may be weight. The whole unit, including the surround, only weighs 235 pounds so by the time you subtract the surround and the shroud the firebricks are the heaviest part of the firebox.
Wrong!
By paying five to six hundred more to buy these inserts from the dealerthan what a Century version sells for these fellows paid for the dealerto handle these kinds of things with the factory and it will be interesting to see if and how they do it. Some are talking about VC coming here and addressing the issue but I don't see it. That is what they have dealers for and they have nothing to gain by end running the dealers and going straight to the consumer. That is one of the things that got them in a bind back in the day.
BTW I'd be surprised if the surround weight 5 lbs. Its thin sheet metal. Have not contacted VC yet. Letting my dealer do his job.
BeGreen said:
Ah very true, but a complete autopsy would erase all doubts.
Mabey they are relying on the liner to hold it up?... as long as you have a tight fitting chimney cap and a dab of cement at the collar connection you are good to go baby!
Don't worry be happy :coolsmile: ...Elk man is on the case, the heating season is all but over, and your dealer sounds like a good guy who will make things right.
wxman said:Thanks for making light of the situation. Need a little cheer.
Been through it on lots of different thing in my life. You and the dealer have a handle on it. Grin where you can. I do sometimes even when the forecast is for rain.
The situation is not to be made light of and I am by no means doing that. Please keep us posted. People shopping for stoves need to know that if they buy a particular product and there is a problem how it will be handled. I am sure there are issues with every stove line out there. The mark of the good ones is how they take care of it. Come to think of it, the mark of the bad ones is how they do/don't take care of it.
Elk I vote my dollar based on quality and performance, not because it's American made. I hate to say it, but the worst thing you can do is support an American company when they make an inferior product or a faulty product. It sends the wrong message. This is why GM/Ford/Chrysler are in the toilet.
That being said there are plenty of other American made stoves out there and this simply is a QC issue that should have never been missed. Those welds don't meet AWS standards and should have been caught before the stoves were even painted.
The response they had is none to promising either. There shouldn't even be a question here, they should have already shipped a new stove.
To be noted, I received a response from Quadrafire today on my stove and the dealer only contacted them on Friday. I am told my stove will likely be replaced within the next two weeks. That is the type of customer service I expect.
My stove was not structural in nature but rather a thermal expansion stress crack on a corner near a weld.
TMonter said:
I agree. Woodstock is simply outstanding to deal with in any interaction I've had with them. I'm glad they're in New Hampshire and support US jobs, but that would not have made up for quality concerns for me.
Anywhere you go, there are good and bad companies. The real way to make our economy stronger is to support quality products and quality manufacturers that are making real progress forward. I read the forums and reviews and saw a lot of VC users with problems. I also saw other companies that didn't have these problems.
Change can lead to some pain along the way, but Vermont is a state full of smart people that will build up something even stronger next time as soon as the markets demand it. Heck, didn't they invent snowboarding up there?
I'm in agreement that things should have happened better. I waiting to see how it plays out. Sounds like maybe things recently got a kick start in the right direction.
Ten's dealer called him to look at the stove and Wx dealer seem to be working in the right direction.
Has anyone heard from the guy in NY, I fax and called his inspector to straighten out his PE installation. I wonder how that worked out? He may have done a follow up post I missed?
Ten's dealer called him to look at the stove and Wx dealer seem to be working in the right direction.
Has anyone heard from the guy in NY, I fax and called his inspector to straighten out his PE installation. I wonder how that worked out? He may have done a follow up post I missed?
Well, it's been quite a day, first the Dealer stopped by and took a couple pic's, we discussed the problem at length and he was very receptive to what I had to say, very polite and easy to deal with, said he had never seen anything like it happen to a stove. I told him and his wife about this web site, and all the posts you had all made and that another stove had popped up with the same problem, they were not aware that this place even existed. Needless to say, I think they must of logged on when he got home, got the jist of whats going here and called there rep's and inturn they must of gotten ahold of somebody at VC and walla!! Just got a call and I will have a new stove, properly welded, with bottom support within the next 2 weeks!! The weight isn't completely off my shoulders yet but I feel much better!! Thanks much people
!!
T
!! T
Good deal. Nice to see VC step up to the plate and do the right thing.
I'm still a little confused on why a long time company like VC wouldn't be a bit more responsive to customer service issues. My opinion is that we shouldn't have to bring so much pressure to bear on them to get results.
This is the third time I've seen slow responses from VC. You might mention this to them Elk, it sounds like their customer service department needs to take some notes from here.
I'm still a little confused on why a long time company like VC wouldn't be a bit more responsive to customer service issues. My opinion is that we shouldn't have to bring so much pressure to bear on them to get results.
This is the third time I've seen slow responses from VC. You might mention this to them Elk, it sounds like their customer service department needs to take some notes from here.
To be fair Tendencies post this on Friday or Thursday. His dealer is the Monday and VC has a new stove in the works. Seems like a pretty good response time to me. Just because they dont post it on this website, they let the dealer do his job. Hope I have the same happy outcome. Sure will be showing my dealerthe results here.
Edit: he posted on Friday near 4:00 PM sure they dont work Sat and SUN so Its a one workday Response. Cant ask for anything more and all you guys wan ted to SUE after 2 hours.
Edit: he posted on Friday near 4:00 PM sure they dont work Sat and SUN so Its a one workday Response. Cant ask for anything more and all you guys wan ted to SUE after 2 hours.
I would have to wholeheartedly concur with your statement. I see people come in all the time to the dealership saying they will not touch Toyota. I live in GM land with a strong support of Ford - more about unions in this area, and I think quality has suffered as a result. To go even farther, in the auto industry I credit Toyota and Honda for raising the bar to better quality, but even they ain't perfect. Just a local redneck in WNY take on things.
TMonter said:
wxman said:To be fair Tendencies post this on Friday or Thursday. His dealer is the Monday and VC has a new stove in the works. Seems like a pretty good response time to me. Just because they dont post it on this website, they let the dealer do his job. Hope I have the same happy outcome. Sure will be showing my dealerthe results here.
Edit: he posted on Friday near 4:00 PM sure they dont work Sat and SUN so Its a one workday Response. Cant ask for anything more and all you guys wan ted to SUE after 2 hours.
Thank goodness Tendencies did post on this website. I hear tell it got somebody to check their stove when they got home. And I hope a bunch of other people have checked theirs also.
What I see looking back at the posts are a lot of people advising what to do if worse came to worse. Which the response to him on the 22nd of March indicated could have/may yet happen.
I hope CFM and your dealers come through like a champ for both of you. And that CFM does something about that design. It ain't an installation error given that yours, his, the one I saw last summer and the one Todd went and looked at are made the same.
Yeah, I think they were very responsive - as mentioned this happened over a weekend.
The initial response was bad - but that often happens because you really are usually not talking to the right person! I have to admit that I've said some stupid stuff to customer myself- like the gasoline comment! The rep and dealer often try to insulate and protect the manufacturer which is a good thing in general... and sometimes it is tough to weed out the REAL problems from the general gripes.
I would hope that we helped not only in confirming the problem, but perhaps in VC making improvements to this otherwise satisfactory model. No one is perfect, but if we each listen and learn we'll get smarter much faster!
As to the car analogy - Wow, I have to say those (made in USA) Hondas are pretty amazing for the $$. The new Civic is like a luxury car inside and they have stripped models at a really low price! If folks get a chance, they should stop by a dealer and see 'em just to know what bang for the buck is!
The kicker is that you can usually sell your Honda for a great price after driving it 10 years or more.....what a deal. We ended up with a used one for my son....one year old and 16,000 miles.....but if he doesn't crash it, I think he will be long married and with kids before he needs another vehicle.
The initial response was bad - but that often happens because you really are usually not talking to the right person! I have to admit that I've said some stupid stuff to customer myself- like the gasoline comment! The rep and dealer often try to insulate and protect the manufacturer which is a good thing in general... and sometimes it is tough to weed out the REAL problems from the general gripes.
I would hope that we helped not only in confirming the problem, but perhaps in VC making improvements to this otherwise satisfactory model. No one is perfect, but if we each listen and learn we'll get smarter much faster!
As to the car analogy - Wow, I have to say those (made in USA) Hondas are pretty amazing for the $$. The new Civic is like a luxury car inside and they have stripped models at a really low price! If folks get a chance, they should stop by a dealer and see 'em just to know what bang for the buck is!
The kicker is that you can usually sell your Honda for a great price after driving it 10 years or more.....what a deal. We ended up with a used one for my son....one year old and 16,000 miles.....but if he doesn't crash it, I think he will be long married and with kids before he needs another vehicle.
BB,
So far so good. My dealer is trying to stop by tomorrow. He is a one man gang and real busy. But with evidence that one has been replace I have faith mine will too.
So far so good. My dealer is trying to stop by tomorrow. He is a one man gang and real busy. But with evidence that one has been replace I have faith mine will too.
One of my stupidest responses to a customer was to the guy who brought in an empty can of stove paint and told me that he wanted a refund. When I asked why, he pointed to the side of the can where it said "use to paint stove and stove pipe" and told me that the one can had not been enough to paint his (substantial) stove and all his pipe. At first, I tried to explain that he was taking those instructions too literally....it meant that the "use" for the paint was for stoves and pipe, not that ONE CAN would paint any stove and pipe in the universe.....
well, he didn't get it - and the shop was crowded......so I finally said:
"This is like bringing an empty cake dish back to the bakery and telling them you didn't like the cake and wanted another"....
Well, it didn't go over so well....... (excuse- this was 25+ years ago)...
Then there was the guy who came in with the cast iron liners which were completely turned to dust...
"What are you burning, Particleboard?" I asked him.
The answer - "Yes, I'm burning the round particle centers from textile rolls I get at the factory where I work".
Well, I was right that time......
well, he didn't get it - and the shop was crowded......so I finally said:
"This is like bringing an empty cake dish back to the bakery and telling them you didn't like the cake and wanted another"....
Well, it didn't go over so well....... (excuse- this was 25+ years ago)...
Then there was the guy who came in with the cast iron liners which were completely turned to dust...
"What are you burning, Particleboard?" I asked him.
The answer - "Yes, I'm burning the round particle centers from textile rolls I get at the factory where I work".
Well, I was right that time......
If you read the original post, it took more than a week for the first response from VC and then they only replied after catching some heat from here on the boards.
It's one thing to get a response that they are working on the problem and quite another to have to wait an entire week with an obvious stove defect.
It's one thing to get a response that they are working on the problem and quite another to have to wait an entire week with an obvious stove defect.
TMonter
True I missed that part, but as soon as his dealer showed up it was same day service. The dealer may hold more clout in this case?? He buys Dozens of stove a year? Losing that hurts the bottom line more. I know thats not the best case but it did get the job done.
True I missed that part, but as soon as his dealer showed up it was same day service. The dealer may hold more clout in this case?? He buys Dozens of stove a year? Losing that hurts the bottom line more. I know thats not the best case but it did get the job done.
Oh, well....Yeah, I didn't time it and I was probably still out of town when it occurred. Even a week or two is still a good time frame...at least compared to others in this industry.
I do hope that the problem would have been taken care of without our interference, but who knows? It does always boil down to getting the right message to the right person.
I do hope that the problem would have been taken care of without our interference, but who knows? It does always boil down to getting the right message to the right person.
My local stove dealer had the best come-back I have ever heard. I bought my stove from his daddy twenty-two years ago. I also bought a Stove-Stat to use with it. Three or four years ago the Stove-Stat crapped out from the heat and I just never got around to looking for another one.
The father died six years ago and the "boys" now run the store. While I was picking up pipe I spotted a new Stove-Stat on the shelf and grabbed it. On the way to the register I ran into the oldest son and told him that I had a warranty issue with a Stove-Stat I bought there. It quit working and after only 18 years I think it is a warranty issue. Instant super response:
"BB there is no warranty on items you bought from dead relatives."
Cracked me up.
The father died six years ago and the "boys" now run the store. While I was picking up pipe I spotted a new Stove-Stat on the shelf and grabbed it. On the way to the register I ran into the oldest son and told him that I had a warranty issue with a Stove-Stat I bought there. It quit working and after only 18 years I think it is a warranty issue. Instant super response:
"BB there is no warranty on items you bought from dead relatives."
Cracked me up.
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