The "pick Joful's new stove" thread!

[Andy S.]

Sorry if it was already suggested, but how about leaving your stoves just as they are and adding a boiler to whittle away at your 1000 gal of oil and heat pump usage? You keep the enjoyment factor and good looks of the current stoves (something I remember reading as important) while adding to the BTU's your massive stockpile of wood is pumping into the house.

 

[Ashful]

I got the impression somehow that Joful's hearths were on exterior walls?

Correct. Both are exterior walls.

If the stove has a blower on it will be pulling in room air toward the back of the stove, warming it up, then blowing it out across the stove top. A layer of insulation behind a stainless or aluminum sheet would help reduce masonry losses, but I wouldn't worry about it unless we are talking about an exterior wall fireplace.

I agree on both points. I was actually considering ordering one with the blower and the other without, to compare the effect of having a blower, but both spaces are so different that it might be tough to make a comparison without physically moving the blower back and forth between stoves. I would guess a blower would be the way to go, for my tucked-away installs, but more on that below.

Yes end the what if discussion and contact bk with your dimensions.

So, I spoke with BK this morning. Actually got our old friend BKVP (Chris) on the line when I called, and he said it's a non-issue for my install, as I have so much room around the stoves. He did recommend I try to keep them at least 4" - 6" off the rear wall, to minimize rear-wall reflected heat, but that was it.

I also got an answer to something that has always bothered me about my installs, the lintel CTC. He said that, for the BK stoves (but probably also applicable to others), there is no CTC requirement for a lintel placed above and in front of the stove. Their top/ceiling clearance requirement of 37" is for objects directly over the stove, and not applicable to a diagonal measurement from the stove to a lintel out in front and above. He said if I had more than 37" straight up from the stove (and I do), then the lintel is not a (legal) issue. He did point out that local jurisdiction may disagree, but my local authority already passed the current stoves in this installation, the BK's being roughly the same size with reduced CTC requirements.

So... it looks like I'm cleared for an Ashford install. Now it's just a matter of determining whether the price break offered will be sufficient to justify doing two of them, or if I'll just be doing one. If I'm doing only one, I have a line on a used one, which might be the way to go.

Sorry if it was already suggested, but how about leaving your stoves just as they are and adding a boiler to whittle away at your 1000 gal of oil and heat pump usage? You keep the enjoyment factor and good looks of the current stoves (something I remember reading as important) while adding to the BTU's your massive stockpile of wood is pumping into the house.

Well, the current stoves must go, one way or another. There have been three reasons outlined for such above, so I won't go back into all of that, but I'm done with them. Adding a boiler to my setup, with the goal of getting down another 1000 gallons of oil per year, would require me to process and handle more wood than I'm interested in doing. I think about 8 cords per year is reasonable, based on the limited free time I have, and we'd be looking at maybe 15 cords per year to get completely off oil. I'm pretty happy with the dual stove setup, if I can get 12 hour cycles from one and 24 hour cycles from the other, and having the boiler kick on only as the programmable T'stats require for a few hours each day.

 

[branchburner]

don't think you want air circulating between the stove and the masonry behind it. This will break down the insulating boundary layer there and result in even more heat loss through the masonry.

Not sure I agree. Is the air behind a stove really insulating the masonry from absorbing radiant heat from the stove? With no air flow, the interior stone face can absorb greater amounts of heat, and thus lose greater amounts through the exterior face. Air flowing between the stove and masonry will pull heat off of both, which should mean more heat to the living space and less to the masonry/outdoors.

If there was an insulating wall behind the stove and then DEAD air between that wall and the exterior wall, then I would agree: the dead air should be dead, with no flow. But that is a different scenario than this... I don't see how the air behind the stove here has any dead-air insulation value. The cooler that masonry is kept on the inside (via air flow), it would seem the cooler it will be on the outside.

 

[branchburner]

I was actually considering ordering one with the blower and the other without, to compare the effect of having a blower, but both spaces are so different that it might be tough to make a comparison without physically moving the blower back and forth between stoves.

A fan will be easier to move, if you want to perform that experiment. You could do it now, with you current stoves. That might tell you if the blower option makes sense (I think it would).

 

[tarzan]

If you do decide to get one with the blower and one without be sure the blower is dedicated to the 12 hour cycle stove.

 

[begreen]

Good news. Looking forward to the comparison of the new with the old.

 

[Ashful]

A fan will be easier to move, if you want to perform that experiment. You could do it now, with you current stoves. That might tell you if the blower option makes sense (I think it would).

Already doing that, actually. See red fan and direction of flow in the sketch below. This is probably not as ideal as having a fan in the doorway at the foot of the stair pointed toward the stove, to force a CW rotational flow around the staircase, but there's just no way to put the fan in that doorway without it being a tripping hazard. With the fan it the location shown, it's completely out of our walking path.



So, we have a CCW flow around the staircase, and a good amount of heat does end up going up the staircase. That's good for reducing heat load upstairs, but bad for keeping our living room warm. Essentially, I'm trying to force all the heat thru a 36" wide doorway, whereas reversing the flow would give us a 56" doorway in the passive heatflow path. Oh well.

I did once have the fan below the window next to the doorway marked "to new addition", pointed in the direction of the stove. That worked maybe a bit better than where the fan is now, but my wife complained it felt too cold sitting at her desk in the office, since it was blowing sort of indirectly toward her.

 

[branchburner]

I was thinking of a fan actually on the hearth, within the fireplace cavity, angled and pointing to the masonry behind the stove. I realize you would probably not want to do that permanently, but it might give you an idea of how direct air within the fireplace makes a difference (if any) in moving heat off the masonry and out of the cavity. So a bit different than the idea of moving cooler room air in the general direction of the stove; this would be closer to approximating the action of a blower, I would think.

 

[begreen]

That will sort of work, but the most efficient heat delivery is usually going to be blowing across the stove top from back to front.

 

[Poindexter]

Coming soon to hearth dot com, new thread, "help Joful locate fans on floorplan for convection currents."

It's a pretty common topic, experimentation is always in order. Just because one set of fan placement works good enough doesn't mean you can't make it better.

 

[Jags]

Just install a couple of these turbocharged v8 monsters and fugitaboutit.

 

[begreen]

LOL, haven't seen one of them for a few years.

 

[branchburner]

the most efficient heat delivery is usually going to be blowing across the stove top from back to front.

That's pretty much what my floor fan ends up doing: air hits the bottom of the back wall of the fireplace right behind the stove and flows up and out, across the stove top from back to front. First time I tried it I was blown away (almost literally) by how much hot air came flowing out of the fireplace and into my face.

 

[Ashful]

That's pretty much what my floor fan ends up doing: air hits the bottom of the back wall of the fireplace right behind the stove and flows up and out, across the stove top from back to front. First time I tried it I was blown away (almost literally) by how much hot air came flowing out of the fireplace and into my face.

Yeah, I think that's what mine is already doing. It's less than 10 feet away, at it's current location.

Just install a couple of these turbocharged v8 monsters and fugitaboutit.
View attachment 154418

Can't use rear exit.

 

[branchburner]

It's less than 10 feet away

Was thinking, try two feet, just for kicks. See if you can feel a difference standing in front of the stove.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Jotul, my fan on my insert runs 24/7 @ 3000rpms so my heat goes into the room rather than heat my exterior chimney. I too have a small box fan on floor blowing cooler air toward stove. the door is 6 feet wide but has a 12" header and it still rolls right around it and up the stairs. So I would vote for a blower for your stove location.

 

[semipro]

semipro said: ↑
don't think you want air circulating between the stove and the masonry behind it. This will break down the insulating boundary layer there and result in even more heat loss through the masonry.

Not sure I agree. Is the air behind a stove really insulating the masonry from absorbing radiant heat from the stove?

I probably wasn't clear. I don't think the boundary layer blocks radiant loss. I do believe it blocks convective loss though. I think of it like drapes on a cold window. Anything you can do to prevent relatively warm air from washing over a cold outside surface will contribute to higher indoor temps and decrease overall heat loss to the outside.

 

[branchburner]

Anything you can do to prevent relatively warm air from washing over a cold outside surface will contribute to higher indoor temps and decrease overall heat loss to the outside.

I agree, except that the surface (and air) behind the stove will be pretty warm when burning 24/7, so the floor air washing over it would be relatively cooler, not warmer, no?

But I close my drapes every night, for the reasons you mention, so I get the gist of what you are saying.

 

[semipro]

So... it looks like I'm cleared for an Ashford install.

So... if you get rid of your Jotuls in favor of Ashfords will you be adjusting your handle here accordingly? "BKful" or worse, "Ashful"?

 

[begreen]

BAshful? Never!

 

[Ashful]

Hah... was considering that a while back. We'll just have to see how it goes. Spoke with regional BK rep yesterday, but was too busy today to follow up with dealer,

 

[Jags]

I'm voting for Fulofit, but thats just me.

 

[Ashful]

Hey... I'm not sure I like the direction this is heading. [emoji12]

 

[bobdog2o02]

I'm voting for Fulofit, but thats just me.

Lol

 

[jharkin]

I missed all the fun here... but this seems like so much research when the answer is obvious... BrowningBAR probably has a couple extra Defiant's sitting around he'd let you take for a song ;