The "pick Joful's new stove" thread!

[webby3650]

He's running the F12 at 400F which seems to say that it's not being pushed for strongly radiant heat.

I can have my Mansfield at 400 and the Ashford at 400 and there's no comparison in the amount of radiant heat. Both will heat the house, there's no doubt. But in this semi-breezy house the straight radiant heat is more effective. I Just don't want my buddy to be disappointed. That's all.

 

[begreen]

You bring up a good point. The convective nature of the T6 is a good fit in our house because the livingroom is modestly sized and a close clearance stove is appreciated. Joful is heating 3 houses and lots of sq. ftg..

FWIW, I'd be focused on eliminating draftiness in the house if that is the case. It will save more wood than a slightly more efficient stove.

 

[semipro]

Along the lines of what Begreen said (post 22); I'd be tempted to wait a bit. There's a lot of innovation going on with wood stoves right now and that's only going to increase with the new EPA regs.
I think we'll see some stoves with electronic controls which would alleviate some of your concerns with room overheating and overall efficiencies.

BTW: The Firelight cat with the foot pedal for top loading is going to hard to beat as far as ease of loading. I loved the one we had.

 

[webby3650]

Along the lines of what Begreen said (post 22); I'd be tempted to wait a bit. There's a lot of innovation going on with wood stoves right now and that's only going to increase with the new EPA regs.
I think we'll see some stoves with electronic controls which would alleviate some of your concerns with room overheating and overall efficiencies.

BTW: The Firelight cat with the foot pedal for top loading is going to hard to beat as far as ease of loading. I loved the one we had.

Keep in mind that the prices will also increase drastically to offset the cost of manufacturing a new design and testing. The Feds gotta get paid ya know!
There has already been some big increases this year. The Cape Cod is now over $4K for black!!
I would buy now rather than be a guinea pig.

 

[begreen]

Some prices will go up, some will not. For example, I don't expect the 30NC price go up. How is the fed making money here? FWIW, stove prices have been going up steadily since I have been on hearth.com. This allowed me to sell both Jotuls for a profit. Inflation is definitely alive in the stove market. That said, I do expect Jotul prices to go up, perhaps significantly.

 

[webby3650]

Some prices will go up, some will not. For example, I don't expect the 30NC price go up. How is the fed making money here? FWIW, stove prices have been going up steadily since I have been on hearth.com. This allowed me to sell both Jotuls for a profit. Inflation is definitely alive in the stove market. That said, I do expect Jotul prices to go up, perhaps significantly.

There has been a pretty good increase each year for a while.
I was referring to the new industry standards that the EPA are demanding. That's where the government is involved. When all the stoves are forced to meet the new stringent standards, the prices will reflect this. For sure.

 

[webby3650]

The retail price of a Castine has increased $600 in less than 4 years.

 

[weatherguy]

Joful, are you sticking with your 6 inch liners or are you considering going with 8 inch? You have such a large area I would put the biggest stoves I could. in there

 

[Dairyman]

I can have my Mansfield at 400 and the Ashford at 400 and there's no comparison in the amount of radiant heat. Both will heat the house, there's no doubt. But in this semi-breezy house the straight radiant heat is more effective. I Just don't want my buddy to be disappointed. That's all.

Intriguing. I find the heat to feel similar to my old purely convective stove, except for standing close to the glass. Is this comparison at the same burn rate?

 

[Poindexter]

Thinking aloud and agreeing with a lot of the thoughtful discussion you got already, what about replacing one stove now with one of your two top picks, keep one Monster going with what you got spare parts for another year or three and see what is available on the market in 2-3 years?

Keeping one monster going will help you chew through your long splits. I don't think the Ashford warranty is transferable to possible second owner, but I bet it would have pretty good resale value if you don't like it. Can't speak for the other model.

I suspect the Ashford has been a grand slam home run type product for BK. Works as efficiently as any other BK, but looks pretty good too. I can't imagine a king or princess size Ashford is too far away, once the factory is caught up on 30 and 20 size backorders. The few folks up here I know running Ashford 20s in smaller homes than mine are ecstatic about them, but they are based on the size 20 Scirrico/Chinook firebox, a well proven design. A dressed up princess or king just can't be too far away - one caveat, the Phase III epa regs are lookign for 2.0 gr/hr using I think a different test method int he lab.

One other thing but I gotta go now.

 

[Osagebndr]

Sounds like if you wait too long it's going to be a bit more expensive. Keeping two and selling one and going with the ashford30 sounds good IMO . As I posted somewhere else if I had the cash I'd be burning a BK King, too many good reviews of all their products not to.

 

[Poindexter]

K. What i was getting around to before is the phase III EPA stove regs are still in the proposed stage, but I don't think liekly to change dramatically before they are adopted. So cord wood test method instead of current crib wood test method, and 2.0 gr/ hr max instead of 2.5gr/ hr max.

If I was president of BK I would have my own lab, enough of my own company lab to have a good idea how my products are going to do on the phase III test cycle. Once I had the 20/30 size fireboxes pretty much in the bag for phase III certification I would be working on the princess and king.

Once the phase III regs are adopted I would be in the parking lot of the official test lab with all four stoves ready to be tested to phase III specs before the lab opens the morning after the phase III regs are adopted.

Once I had all four phase iii certified, than I would put a pretty skin on the princess and king.

 

[Ashful]

Wow... lots of great replies. I'll try getting all the responses into one post.

I'd be taking a tape measure and a few of your normal splits to any dealer you can find with an Ashford 30 & see what real world max split length is.

I tried this today. Found the local BK dealer on their site, and tried calling to see if they had an Ashford on their showroom floor. Got the voicemail of some HVAC company. Tried finding the hearth store on Google, and they don't seem to exist? Weird. It's BK's only dealer real close to my house, and I wasn't going to make a long drive in today's snow to the second closest... so I'll try again another day!

Technology is about to make a shift in many major stove lines. I would consider only replacing one stove at this time and see what you think. My guess, and it's only a guess, is the least likely to change stove will be the BK Ashford 30. So maybe just get one Ashford 30 and see what you think. That way you will have a reserve F12 in case the other one develops a problem. Then revisit this question in 2-3 years from now.

I know I can get remarkably better pricing if I buy two at a time. I expect to take more than $1000 off the total purchase and install price, as they only need to make one trip, one order with the manufacturer, etc.

I feel that the Ashford is more geared toward a well insulated space. You do not have that right? It's more of a convective heater in my opinion. With all that stone and a big breezy house I think you need big radiant heat. If you have to run it on higher setting then there won't be much advantage to it over a non-cat. Jacketed stoves just don't offer that big heat that you are gonna need. Just my 2 cents.

Actually, our house is reasonbly tight, with the exception of one small ca.1894 addition of 400 sq.ft x 2 floors. The stone part of the house is absolutely tight, with the exception of two very old doors. I'll be redoing those doors within the next year. Our problem is more radiation (stone walls) and just shear size. The 1894 addition will be gutted, spray foamed, and fully rebuilt about 16 months from now.

He's running the F12 at 400F which seems to say that it's not being pushed for strongly radiant heat.

I can have my Mansfield at 400 and the Ashford at 400 and there's no comparison in the amount of radiant heat. Both will heat the house, there's no doubt. But in this semi-breezy house the straight radiant heat is more effective. I Just don't want my buddy to be disappointed. That's all.

Here's the thing... my schedule sort of dictates where I run the stove, more than my heating needs. I found that trying to load two stoves three times a day was just too much, particularly in trying to get out the door in the morning. So, my solution has been to run the stove in the old part of the house (4000 sq.ft.) on 12 hour cycles, and the stove in the new part of the house (2000 sq.ft.) on 24 hour cycles. This is what has me thinking Ashford, and suspecting non-cats of any size will not fit my plan. I'd be very happy to be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

FWIW, I'd be focused on eliminating draftiness in the house if that is the case. It will save more wood than a slightly more efficient stove.

Yep. I have the windows in a decent place now. We have rebuild the worst 7 or 8 offenders. Next summer I'll be doing something with the two old doors that are leaking, and within a year we'll be tackling our worst problem... the drafty old framed addition that contains our kitchen. It's a work in progress.

Along the lines of what Begreen said (post 22); I'd be tempted to wait a bit. There's a lot of innovation going on with wood stoves right now and that's only going to increase with the new EPA regs.
I think we'll see some stoves with electronic controls which would alleviate some of your concerns with room overheating and overall efficiencies.

BTW: The Firelight cat with the foot pedal for top loading is going to hard to beat as far as ease of loading. I loved the one we had.

I love these Firelight 12's. Solid as a brick outhouse. Unfortunately, I find I can't really load them to the gills for the long burn times I require, without the cat temp spiking well above 1800F. I believe Jotul should have used a much larger combustor for a stove of this size, based on my comparison to other (modern) catalytic stoves.

Bringing us back to your first thought of waiting for new technology... that's the trouble I'm having with these stoves. They were the new technology of their time, probably before the limits and parameters were fully understood. I'm ready for some old-tech!

Keep in mind that the prices will also increase drastically to offset the cost of manufacturing a new design and testing. The Feds gotta get paid ya know!
There has already been some big increases this year. The Cape Cod is now over $4K for black!!
I would buy now rather than be a guinea pig.

I agree.

... I do expect Jotul prices to go up, perhaps significantly.

Good to know. I think that the introduction of new reg's will cause the pricing to outstrip inflation. Look at what has happened to pickup truck pricing over the last few years. Inflation at 3x per year, new pickups increasing at more than double that rate.

Joful, are you sticking with your 6 inch liners or are you considering going with 8 inch? You have such a large area I would put the biggest stoves I could. in there

I'd prefer to find a stove that will allow me to use my 6" liners, as I just paid about $3500 to have them installed two years ago. So, anything is open for discussion, but I'd strongly favor a stove that will run on a 6" pipe.

Thinking aloud and agreeing with a lot of the thoughtful discussion you got already, what about replacing one stove now with one of your two top picks, keep one Monster going with what you got spare parts for another year or three and see what is available on the market in 2-3 years?

This is definitely the low-risk path, so not without merit, but I don't anticipate wanting to really run these Jotuls full-bore anymore. Having been thru 3 cats this year alone, I'm really ready to be done with them. It will also cost me much more to do one at a time, in the long run.

I suspect the Ashford has been a grand slam home run type product for BK. Works as efficiently as any other BK, but looks pretty good too. I can't imagine a king or princess size Ashford is too far away, once the factory is caught up on 30 and 20 size backorders.

I asked this question, as I would be willing to wait for a larger stove from BK, but BKVP reports there are no plans to dress up any other stove in their line with cast iron. Seems like a poor business decision, but that's their business.

Sounds like if you wait too long it's going to be a bit more expensive. Keeping two and selling one and going with the ashford30 sounds good IMO . As I posted somewhere else if I had the cash I'd be burning a BK King, too many good reviews of all their products not to.

We all have our limiting factors. In my case, it's making this painless for my wife, who is getting a little fed up with the Firelights. I'll spend money to avoid frustration.

 

[tarzan]

If only you hadn't got ahead on your wood supply! This would be much easier.

Just had to say that while it's applicable.

 

[Poindexter]

I lost track of your having been through three cats already this season. You have pretty well talked yourself into a pair of Ashford 30s, given the Woodstock soapstone is not aesthetically pleasing to you.

I tried the 215 ac # for the BK dealer that is supposed to be on South Street in Philly, 'I am sorry, the voice mail for this number has not been set up...', but on google map ( copyright 2014) there was an actual storefront in the street view. If I was BKVP reading this I would be foaming at the mouth. Good luck.

Bummer about the wood pile, but if you start processing 18" now and suffer one season you can sell off the 20" leftovers to a OWB owner after the 18s start coming up dry.

Glad I already know the Ashford20 the wife and I are planning for our next smaller house takes the same 16" splits I am running in the 30 now. Pushing 8 cords a year through an Ashford 30 will be no problem, at least my weather/ my envelope.

 

[drz1050]

I like the way it looks, but the Progress Hybrid is a side loader, I don't think that would work too well for these alcove setups.

 

[bobdog2o02]

That being said i dont think a convective stove like ANY of the BK line will do you much good. I would be looking toward a more radiant heat stove for your spaces.

 

[firefighterjake]

I guess that old saying still holds true; beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

View attachment 154209

Gotta agree . . . the PH is the only Woodstock stove that I have liked the looks of to consider replacing my beloved Jotul. I personally like the look.

 

[branchburner]

I know I can get remarkably better pricing if I buy two at a time. I expect to take more than $1000 off the total purchase and install price, as they only need to make one trip, one order with the manufacturer, etc.

They wouldn't have to be identical twins. I doubt one order (of two stoves) with a single manufacturer would make much if any difference in price, since the shop is probably ordering multiple stoves from different manufacturers at any given time, any way.

If you get two very different stoves, you will probably be able to post here at least twice as often as you would otherwise!

On top of that, both stoves should be competing to impress you, and proving their relative worth... who knows, maybe that dynamic will give you more BTUs, with both stoves giving 110% to outdo each other. Just be careful not to tell one you love it more or less than the other.

 

[branchburner]

I have no idea, but, wouldn't it be better for you to heat with those stove out a few feet more?

I was thinking the same. Having all the masonry as heat sink would be fine with an interior chimney, since it would re-radiate back into the living space, but seems an exterior chimney would be transferring some (lots?) out and about.

 

[drz1050]

I think a Cape Cod would look really nice in that setting with the two chairs facing it.. can't beat that huge glass either. I think that can take 20"+ logs...

For the others, maybe something not so pretty and just go for efficiency/ lower cost?

 

[Poindexter]

Whats the BTU gap between the Firelight 12 and the Ashford 30?

While I do buff the wax off the rims on my gto with Qtips for aesthetic purposes, cutting 2" off every split of just the seven cords I have up for next year now is really painful to think about.

Found it, 81.5k BTU per hour max for the Jotul F12 on a Jotul dot com webpage, BK is claiming 36.2k per hour for a 10 hour burn for the A30.

That's a pretty big step down, though on paper two A30s should be capable of heating 4800sqft. I dunno how much stock to put in those sqft ratings, my climate my insulation my A30 is about right for 1200sqft, maybe 15-1800sqft if ideally located.

Aesthetics aside I think I would be picking between the Princess and the King - both of which can handle 20" log length.

I wonder what else is out there?

 

[shoot-straight]

Jotul. Couple of notes. Webby is right. I think the Ashford is not a very good radiwnt heater. Without the blower we would be freezing I think.

As to a local bk dealer. There is one in wilmington and one outside reading. I bought mine from the guy in wilmington but he's carries no stock. The reading place must have had 50 stoves and inserts on display, including an Ashford. They were higher in price.

 

[Ashful]

I like the way it looks, but the Progress Hybrid is a side loader, I don't think that would work too well for these alcove setups.

Correct. I kid about the PH being an ugly stove, as I prefer the traditional cast iron look, but it's really not that awful. Anyone who was here a few years back can tell you I was looking at the PH before I installed my second Firelight. The side load door was a deal killer, tho.

That being said i dont think a convective stove like ANY of the BK line will do you much good. I would be looking toward a more radiant heat stove for your spaces.

Some of you keep going back to trying to heat the house with a stove. Give up that assumption. There is just no way to heat a space like this with a few stoves. Back when my house was half its current size, they had FIVE wood stoves to keep it heated.

Instead, consider efficiency. If I can put a cord a month thru a stove, and it has higher efficiency than another, then I'm putting more BTU's into my house. It doesn't really matter if it's convective or conductive. The boiler will be running, either way.

 

[Ashful]

As to a local bk dealer. There is one in wilmington and one outside reading. I bought mine from the guy in wilmington but he's carries no stock. The reading place must have had 50 stoves and inserts on display, including an Ashford. They were higher in price.

I'm not far from Reading. Will check it out!