Steel catalytic combustor for a Blaze King Ultra.

[HarvestMan]

Something isn't quite right about the sizing on that site. Can you please measure the size of your BK combustor and post it here. The size they list for the Fireview cat is not correct, let me measure mine and post actual size.

Here is my WS Fireview 205 cat. Measures approximately 9.75 x 5.25. Size on firecat site for one side only; it says canned, but not really sure what you are getting. Here is what you get from WS site:
http://store.woodstove.com/home.php?cat=265

What is the size of the BK cat?

Not sure about cat sizing for PH and IS models as they don't seem to be listed on the WS web store.

 

[NHcpa]

I think some here thought you were talking about the BK combustor, but here you're showing the cat used in the Jotul Firelight.

Yes, that cat has a gasket between the metal "can" and the ceramic brick. When it gets hot, it expands, causing the can to bulge in the middle. I think this concept and material was developed for stoves with less easily damaged catalytic combustor housings or retainers, but it will cause your cat chamber cover ($70) to bifurcate itself on the knife edge that makes up the cover retainer on the Jotul Firelight. If you're real unlucky, can even push apart your cat chamber ($400). Somewhere on this forum, a few years back, I think I even posted pictures of one or two of those cats that had bulged and caused damage to my stoves. Others on this forum have had the same problem with that combustor assembly, which is why some have taken to removing the gasket and reassembling their own.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled BK cat combustor thread.

Sorry for the confusion... With no clear choice for a replacement OEM cat for Firelight 12, I will order another Clear Skies. I will say for the Clear Skies replacement, I did have to "trick out" the chamber cover to accommodate (razor blade as the can was a little higher/thicker - did some minor carving). Thinking my Jotul is becoming obsolete....

 

[Ashful]

On that firecat site you can see why Woodstock combustors are so cheap. They're really small. The BKs use big cats, at least double the size, with lots of catalyst material so they cost twice as much.

I lost the data to support this, but I'm pretty sure the cross section and volume of combustor are identical between Woodstock and Blaze King. I remember finding that, when comparing the combustor size of my Firelights to each. In fact, when talking standard ceramic cats, the Woodstock has far more surface area than a BK of equal size. This is because BK uses a 16 cell per sq. inch cellular array, whereas Woodstock uses the more common 25 cell per sq. inch array.

Obviously, combustor size and surface area are not a measure of performance, as BK's are still holding top honors for burn time and efficiency.

 

[Ashful]

Thinking my Jotul is becoming obsolete....

Time to buy an Ashford 30!

I loved my Jotuls, but for all the wrong reasons. The Jotul Firelight 12's are beautiful and fantastically built stoves, but they were designed at a time when catalytic technology was not understood and optimized nearly as well as today. So, what you have there is a beautiful and exceedingly well built stove, that just doesn't perform anywhere near as well as many less impressively-built stoves you can buy today.

I have the same problem with my house. And cars. And woodworking machinery.

 

[BrotherBart]

We shall see in three or four months Ashful. Waiting to see how they heat that barn.

 

[Ashful]

We shall see in three or four months Ashful. Waiting to see how they heat that barn.

Yep... I am trying to hold my opinion on these Ashfords until I have more hours on them, but the wait is killing me. Got to run one of them a few times last spring, and was blown away by the burn times on some smaller loads, but I wasn't exactly testing their max BTU output at that time of the year.

 

[HarvestMan]

I lost the data to support this, but I'm pretty sure the cross section and volume of combustor are identical between Woodstock and Blaze King. I remember finding that, when comparing the combustor size of my Firelights to each. In fact, when talking standard ceramic cats, the Woodstock has far more surface area than a BK of equal size. This is because BK uses a 16 cell per sq. inch cellular array, whereas Woodstock uses the more common 25 cell per sq. inch array.

Obviously, combustor size and surface area are not a measure of performance, as BK's are still holding top honors for burn time and efficiency.

Yet, the mystery as to why WS combustors are so cheap remains unsolved. Which really was the point of Highbeams post and my reply to it.

 

[Ashful]

Yet, the mystery as to why WS combustors are so cheap remains unsolved. Which really was the point of Highbeams post and my reply to it.

Yeah, no help there. I do know 25 cell substrate is much more common, and so that may be much cheaper than the 16 cell substrate, but that's only applicable to ceramic cats.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yep... I am trying to hold my opinion on these Ashfords until I have more hours on them, but the wait is killing me. Got to run one of them a few times last spring, and was blown away by the burn times on some smaller loads, but I wasn't exactly testing their max BTU output at that time of the year.

I think they are gonna really rock for ya.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I've more or less read this whole thread, and I'm confused as hell.

1. What is "diesel foil" and why is it a bad thing?
2. Are Condar's steel combustors "diesel foil", or not ?
3. in Which post does BKVP post pictures of the various kinds of steel cat ?

Thanks.

 

[HarvestMan]

I've more or less read this whole thread, and I'm confused as hell.

1. What is "diesel foil" and why is it a bad thing?
2. Are Condar's steel combustors "diesel foil", or not ?
3. in Which post does BKVP post pictures of the various kinds of steel cat ?

Thanks.

Post 47 - open file BKVP attached
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...a-blaze-king-ultra.145687/page-2#post-1964126

 

[drz1050]

subscribing

 

[RustyShackleford]

Post 47 - open file BKVP attached
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...a-blaze-king-ultra.145687/page-2#post-1964126

Hmm, that's weird. The one in my stove - the original one - looks more like the "diesel" stuff.

 

[drz1050]

Hmm, that's weird. The one in my stove - the original one - looks more like the "diesel" stuff.

Did you see Highbeam's post? That's the durafoil. The picture in the .pdf isn't the best.... what I got from reading it was that the diesel foil will be rolled and not uniform, while the dura will be laid out in rows and all cells are uniform.

 

[Highbeam]

Did you see Highbeam's post? That's the durafoil. The picture in the .pdf isn't the best.... what I got from reading it was that the diesel foil will be rolled and not uniform, while the dura will be laid out in rows and all cells are uniform.

Durafoil is pictured here. To make it easy to find. It's like a million squares all the same size with no rolling in the corners. It's like they make one huge cat and cut these little BK sized cats out of the huge sheet. Way more squares and surface area than the ceramic. Really quick to glow when you flop the bypass, like almost instantly.

 

[HarvestMan]

I have done business with Condar and have only good things to say about their products and customer service. Just today I had a nice phone conversation with Mike Whitt the Senior Vice President and Marketing Director at Condar Company regarding the quality of their steel cat products and this whole diesel foil topic. He stated that diesel foil is NOT used in their products. They do not reveal component suppliers as a matter of company policy.

My suggestion is not to be scared away from Condar because of the diesel foil talk in this thread. Give them a call, discuss your concerns and then make your decision.

 

[Ashful]

I also found Condar's people to be very friendly, having dealt with them several times due to combustor failures. I've burned up a few of their steel cats, and they gave me some incorrect information on the construction of their certamic cat (expanding gasket between ceramic element and steel can), which lead to about $600 damage to one of my stoves.

My first experience with them was ordering two replacement ceramic cats for older Jotul cat stoves, upon which they contacted me and suggested I change the order to their then-new SteelCats for an additional $40/ea. Okay... they convinced me they're better, so I bit. A year later, both had failed. When I called them to discuss, their reply was, "yeah, most of the Jotul and VC owners have had the same problem. We recommend you purchase two new ceramic cats." Really?

 

[HarvestMan]

I also found Condar's people to be very friendly, having dealt with them several times due to combustor failures. I've burned up a few of their steel cats, and they gave me some incorrect information on the construction of their certamic cat (expanding gasket between ceramic element and steel can), which lead to about $600 damage to one of my stoves.

My first experience with them was ordering two replacement ceramic cats for older Jotul cat stoves, upon which they contacted me and suggested I change the order to their then-new SteelCats for an additional $40/ea. Okay... they convinced me they're better, so I bit. A year later, both had failed. When I called them to discuss, their reply was, "yeah, most of the Jotul and VC owners have had the same problem. We recommend you purchase two new ceramic cats." Really?

D*mn, you make it sound like you just rolled over on that one. Did you take it up the chain? ... or just up the wallet?

Sounds like you did learn your old Jotul design was rather hard on small cats though (your words) ... but you left that part out of your post above:

"1. I'm learning the combo of very large firebox with very small catalytic combustor is a recipe for very short combustor life, if run on large loads 24/7. Each time I cook a combustor, there is other associated damage that costs me time and money."
​

You often miss the point of my posts, so let me spell it out for everyone here. Don't let the diesel foil talk posted here scare you away from Condar; do your own research and then make your decision. As with all companies, your mileage may vary. Good luck all with your purchasing decisions.

 

[Highbeam]

I'm just not confident that condar knows the difference between diesel foil and durafoil. They are just resellers. If they do know the difference they should discuss it on their website and show photos of each cat for sale so that we could verify.

 

[HarvestMan]

I'm just not confident that condar knows the difference between diesel foil and durafoil. They are just resellers. If they do know the difference they should discuss it on their website and show photos of each cat for sale so that we could verify.

That is fair. What would change your confidence? And, the real question is why do you fail to have the confidence to begin with? What company do you know that builds all its own parts? Almost every company has suppliers and assembles them into something.

Now, if BKVP's cryptic post regarding diesel foil is the reason, perhaps you should ask yourself a few questions. Here are a few that come to mind:

1. Why was this all so cryptic to begin with? Why such secrecy? If it is true, why not speak openly?
2. Who benefits from leading people away from one vendor and back to the dealer network?
3. Why even go down the road that leads to casting doubts about your company's competitors?

I really have no skin in this stupid game. I read these threads because I really like the long burn tech that BK has and would love to own one. I can't but would love to see a similar t-stat on my WS stove and have e-mailed WS about it (still waiting on a reply to that one).

What does cheese me off a bit is to see people so easily influenced by some negative comment or someone's negative experience. Every company has wronged someone (so they will all tell us). You can't rule them all out. Do your research and make your best decision.

Now, as a WS stove owner, BK people don't give a crap about what I say because many think I'm a WS Fanboy. Hah! I've ticked off a few WS Fanboys because I'm not "all in". But, you Highbeam have some influence around here. Here is my challenge to you. Call Mike Whitt at Condar ex 228 speak with him about Condar's expertise and then post back here with your observations. The only thing you have to loose is your "lack of confidence".

 

[Ashful]

D*mn, you make it sound like you just rolled over on that one. Did you take it up the chain? ... or just up the wallet?

No, once I reminded them that I had switched my order from ceramic to SteelCat at their recommendation, they agreed to send me the replacement ceramic cat's under the warranty program.

Sounds like you did learn your old Jotul design was rather hard on small cats though (your words) ... but you left that part out of your post above:

"1. I'm learning the combo of very large firebox with very small catalytic combustor is a recipe for very short combustor life, if run on large loads 24/7. Each time I cook a combustor, there is other associated damage that costs me time and money."​

This is correct. Was already stated, didn't see need to repeat it.

​

You often miss the point of my posts, so let me spell it out for everyone here. Don't let the diesel foil talk posted here scare you away from Condar; do your own research and then make your decision. As with all companies, your mileage may vary. Good luck all with your purchasing decisions.

Didn't miss it, just didn't want to waste time arguing the point, since the answer is not clear. Condar says they don't use diesel foil, yet the photo of the cat used to identify a diesel foil cat is the Condar cat. I owned two, and while I guess I don't know what they are, I can say with 100% certainty they are not Durafoil. What other substrates exist? Who does Condar buy their substrate from?

 

[Ashful]

That is fair. What would change your confidence? And, the real question is why do you fail to have the confidence to begin with? What company do you know that builds all its own parts? Almost every company has suppliers and assembles them into something....
Call Mike Whitt at Condar ex 228 speak with him about Condar's expertise and then post back here with your observations. The only thing you have to loose is your "lack of confidence".

HarvestMan, are you employed by, or otherwise associated with, Condar? I have not seen anyone so consistently defend a company with which they did not have a financial relationship, since Backwoods Savage left the forum.

 

[HarvestMan]

HarvestMan, are you employed by, or otherwise associated with, Condar? I have not seen anyone so consistently defend a company with which they did not have a financial relationship, since Backwoods Savage left the forum.

I am the nobody of nobodies! I have no association with any company. I believe all people and all companies deserve a fair shake. A quote I am quite fond of is from Leo Tolstoy: The hero of my tale, whom I love with all the power of my soul, whom I have tried to portray in all his beauty, who has been, is, and will be beautiful, is Truth.

I don't know the truth about this whole diesel foil topic. I know what has been written here and I have tried to determine the truth by reaching out to Condar. I have spoken with them and I believe they are leaders in the catalyst field and that they are concerned about quality and that they have customers around the world that demand quality; I can not understand why they would risk their reputation selling an inferior product. This is what I believe.

In the end, what I believe does not matter. I have simply tried to present a different view for others to consider. Like the last few lines from Robert Frost's The Road Not Taken:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.​

 

[Ashful]

I am the nobody of nobodies! I have no association with any company. I believe all people and all companies deserve a fair shake. A quote I am quite fond of is from Leo Tolstoy: The hero of my tale, whom I love with all the power of my soul, whom I have tried to portray in all his beauty, who has been, is, and will be beautiful, is Truth.

I don't know the truth about this whole diesel foil topic. I know what has been written here and I have tried to determine the truth by reaching out to Condar. I have spoken with them and I believe they are leaders in the catalyst field and that they are concerned about quality and that they have customers around the world that demand quality; I can not understand why they would risk their reputation selling an inferior product. This is what I believe.

In the end, what I believe does not matter. I have simply tried to present a different view for others to consider. Like the last few lines from Robert Frost's The Road Not Taken:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.​

Glad I checked back in before bed. This made my night! Have a good one.

 

[BrotherBart]

Tolstoy and Frost in a cat performance thread. Now I have seen it all. Put me in the box and throw on the dirt.