Started as stove talk now thread about marriage, etc...

[MRD1985]

Well, I suppose this sets this in stone. We will absolutely be not using wood to heat our house. Woke up from a nap to CO detector going off. So called gas company and found low levels around the chimney with the boiler running. Definitely going to need to be lined to use the boiler, at a tune of 2500-3000$. So we are going to pay to do that. I suggested the idea to try it for a week and see how it goes. Immediate no. She said I could tear down this entire house and if using the stove was the only way to fix it the answer would still be no. If this wasn’t the time to try it under the circumstances, there never will be a better one.

Thank you all for all your help, insight and advice.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks guys, but there are at least a few on this forum who make my operation look quaint. Most of the outside boiler guys, for example. I remember one regular poster who used to do 23 cords per year!

But yeah, it's always great to see the workflow of others, and spot any ways we can improve our own. The workflow I showed above is mostly stolen and cobbled together from others that came before me, on this forum.

 

[Ashful]

Well, I suppose this sets this in stone. We will absolutely be not using wood to heat our house... If this wasn’t the time to try it under the circumstances, there never will be a better one.

I maybe didn't follow every detail of every post that got us from the beginning to here, but was the discussion turning toward using only wood to heat the house? If so, I'd tend to agree with not going that route, as it's just not entirely practical for most.

Wood is a great way to supplement your central heating, even if 90% of the total load is satisfied by wood. But to go completely sans-boiler is another matter entirely, everytime you get sick, spend a few days away from home, have a part break on the woodstove, etc. Also, getting homeowners insurance with wood as your "primary" heat is a bit of a thing, as is selling any house without functional central heating.

 

[MRD1985]

I maybe didn't follow every detail of every post that got us from the beginning to here, but was the discussion turning toward using only wood to heat the house? If so, I'd tend to agree with not going that route, as it's just not entirely practical for most.

Wood is a great way to supplement your central heating, even if 90% of the total load is satisfied by wood. But to go completely sans-boiler is another matter entirely, everytime you get sick, spend a few days away from home, have a part break on the woodstove, etc. Also, getting homeowners insurance with wood as your "primary" heat is a bit of a thing, as is selling any house without functional central heating.

I wanted to use it primarily for heat and supplement with heat pump as needed. I have a cold climate heat pump (multi zone control,Mitsubishi hyper heat VRF) I was going to use and X off the boiler to reduce our yearly gas usage for water heating only.

My plan was never to remove the boiler, just not use it unless absolutely needed. But it order to use that (and the water heater really) that flue must be lined as now is it a serious safety concern.

 

[Caw]

Hah... you just reminded me that the shoulder that's bothering me now, was broken when I was about 24 years old. Broke my scapula and three ribs falling down a flight of stairs, learning that socks on slippery hardwood while carrying a squirming dog is a bad combination. I'm not sure if that's contributing to the tenderness experienced now after shoveling, and then splitting wood, but it's possible. I actually have a list of a few shoulder injuries, but won't bore you with all that.

Wood porn? I bucked and split two cords this weekend, all efforts to do more being hampered by a fresh 8" of snow on everything, and other chores that blocked out part of each day. Right now, most of what I'm splitting is ash and relatively small stuff, like 8" to 18", the stuff you can really fly through.

Here's the quick run-down on the process:

1. Haul logs home in trailer

View attachment 323578

2. Store logs in piles by year

View attachment 323579

3. Roll a log off the pile, buck to 18" lengths

View attachment 323576

4. Load rounds into bucket

View attachment 323580

5. Park splitter where you'll be stacking.

View attachment 323575

6. Park bucket at hip height next to splitter

View attachment 323577

7. Split and repeat, until it gets dark.

View attachment 323581

I think you've mentioned it before but how do the middle stacks do in your shed? Are you burning 3 or 4 years old? I'm going from 2 to 3 deep in my area and will be on the 3 year plan so I'm curious how affected the middle rack will be. I have a primo drying area but it's all oak. So we'll see. I like to think it'll be fine but time will tell.

 

[Caw]

Well, I suppose this sets this in stone. We will absolutely be not using wood to heat our house. Woke up from a nap to CO detector going off. So called gas company and found low levels around the chimney with the boiler running. Definitely going to need to be lined to use the boiler, at a tune of 2500-3000$. So we are going to pay to do that. I suggested the idea to try it for a week and see how it goes. Immediate no. She said I could tear down this entire house and if using the stove was the only way to fix it the answer would still be no. If this wasn’t the time to try it under the circumstances, there never will be a better one.

Thank you all for all your help, insight and advice.

I'm sorry man. Very disappointing. It's absolutely the perfect time to experiment with the stove for a week or two while you get the boiler fixed and she can't even give you that. In fact she's rubbing your face in it.

She sucks. Sorry to be so blunt and be mean but that's just the way I see it. I know what I'd do. 🥺

 

[bigealta]

I agree with Ash, You got to have a working boiler in New England. You don't have to always or even often use it but there will be days in the future with 0F and 30 mph winds and power outages. You have to have pipe protection. The risk reward is to high to not have a working boiler. What if you are away? who's gonna keep the stove running 24/7? What if you get hurt and can't lift anything for a while? When you sell the house the value will be less and buyers will walk thinking this house has wacky homeowners, wonder what else crap diy did they do to the house.

 

[bigealta]

Oh and tell f in law to go pound salt with his crap advise.

 

[bigealta]

and agree with CAW too, perfect time to burn baby burn till the boiler is fixed.

 

[Caw]

I agree with Ash, You got to have a working boiler in New England. You don't have to always or even often use it but there will be days in the future with 0F and 30 mph winds and power outages. You have to have pipe protection. The risk reward is to high to not have a working boiler. What if you are away? who's gonna keep the stove running 24/7? What if you get hurt and can't lift anything for a while? When you sell the house the value will be less and buyers will walk thinking this house has wacky homeowners, wonder what else crap diy did they do to the house.

You don't need a boiler but you do need back up heat. A modern heat pump is perfectly capable of doing it. I don't own a boiler but I have a heat pump, solar, and the wood stove. If we are away or miss a reload for whatever reason the heat pump can kick on. If it's below it's working range they have resistance heaters built in to carry the load. It's very expensive backup heat but it really doesn't come on hardly at all. Probably less than 15 hours total a winter while I'm using the stove. Really only gets used if we're away or if I'm sick and can't deal with the stove etc.

 

[MRD1985]

I agree with Ash, You got to have a working boiler in New England. You don't have to always or even often use it but there will be days in the future with 0F and 30 mph winds and power outages. You have to have pipe protection. The risk reward is to high to not have a working boiler. What if you are away? who's gonna keep the stove running 24/7? What if you get hurt and can't lift anything for a while? When you sell the house the value will be less and buyers will walk thinking this house has wacky homeowners, wonder what else crap diy did they do to the house.

I never said I didn’t want a functional boiler. I wanted to limit its use for emergencies only. Again I have no problem fixing it. But to me it’s not an immediate “must have” with the other options I have available at this point in time. The heat pump/stove combo would be perfectly fine.

I’d rather just put the cheap liner in for the water heater at this point and down the road fix the liner to accommodate both.

 

[bigealta]

You don't need a boiler but you do need back up heat. A modern heat pump is perfectly capable of doing it. I don't own a boiler but I have a heat pump, solar, and the wood stove. If we are away or miss a reload for whatever reason the heat pump can kick on. If it's below it's working range they have resistance heaters built in to carry the load. It's very expensive backup heat but it really doesn't come on hardly at all. Probably less than 15 hours total a winter while I'm using the stove. Really only gets used if we're away or if I'm sick and can't deal with the stove etc.

Ok i didn't realize the heat pumps work in extreme cold. But if they kick on electric than i get it. How much are they and are there good hydronic heat pumps? I need to get rid of oil tank here and that means the oil fired old coal boiler needs to go to.

Edit: just did quick google, looks like for my situation gas option would be the preferred way to go especially since it will be little used and really used as back up heat and pipe protection during extreme cold.

 

[bigealta]

I never said I didn’t want a functional boiler. I wanted to limit its use for emergencies only. Again I have no problem fixing it. But to me it’s not an immediate “must have” with the other options I have available at this point in time. The heat pump/stove combo would be perfectly fine.

I’d rather just put the cheap liner in for the water heater at this point and down the road fix the liner to accommodate both.

Ok got it with you guys and the heat pumps. I always thought they had low temp limits.

 

[MRD1985]

Ok got it with you guys and the heat pumps. I always thought they had low temp limits.

The one I have will still produce 75% of its rated capacity at -13*F and 100% at 5 degrees.

It’s a specific cold climate rate heat pump.

 

[Caw]

Ok i didn't realize the heat pumps work in extreme cold. But if the kick on electric than i get it. How much are they and are there good hydronic heat pumps? I need to get rid of oil tank here and that means the oil fired old coal boiler needs to go to.

The modern ones are really cool and worth looking into. Mine is from 2006 and only works down to 37 degrees before the backup resistance heat kicks on. The new cold weather ones can operate down to 5, 10, 20 degrees depending on what model you get. They get pricier the lower they can go of course.

You should check with your state energy office and see if there are any tax rebates or incentives for you to switch from oil or coal. Here in MA switching from an old inefficient oil heater to a modern heat pump you can get up to a $10,000 rebate as of last year. It's a great program. I sadly don't qualify since I'm going from an older to a newer heat pump. The program is designed to phase out old inefficient fossil fuels units which are very prevalent around here. Lots of old oil furnaces from the 50s-90s.

 

[Caw]

The one I have will still produce 75% of its rated capacity at -13*F and 100% at 5 degrees.

It’s a specific cold climate rate heat pump.

His much was it/what brand? If you don't mind me asking. We need to replace our 2006 Trane basically any day now. It still works but its r-22 and not rechargeable anymore. Next time it breaks it's being replaced.

 

[bigealta]

The modern ones are really cool and worth looking into. Mine is from 2006 and only works down to 37 degrees before the backup resistance heat kicks on. The new cold weather ones can operate down to 5, 10, 20 degrees depending on what model you get. They get pricier the lower they can go of course.

You should check with your state energy office and see if there are any tax rebates or incentives for you to switch from oil or coal. Here in MA switching from an old inefficient oil heater to a modern heat pump you can get up to a $10,000 rebate as of last year. It's a great program. I sadly don't qualify since I'm going from an older to a newer heat pump. The program is designed to phase out old inefficient fossil fuels units which are very prevalent around here. Lots of old oil furnaces from the 50s-90s.

Yeah i had another thread on my oil boiler and peakbagger mentioned the fed rebates. Going to look into the NJ state program now. Thanks

 

[MRD1985]

His much was it/what brand? If you don't mind me asking. We need to replace our 2006 Trane basically any day now. It still works but its r-22 and not rechargeable anymore. Next time it breaks it's being replaced.

It’s Mitsubishi, which is a division of Trans. It wasn’t cheap and I did the work myself including pressure testing, vacuum and charging. But I had to run 175+ feet of line, mount 4 different heads (it’s a split system, variable refrigerant flow ). Not including tooling purchase, the line sets, as well as indoor and out door units, branch box, wiring/breakers and shut of box, extra line set insulation and making a concrete pad for outdoor unit, I was probably in it for 16000 or so. I had quotes of 30K to install it.

I would do it in the next year or so if you’re gonna do it. They’re changing refrigerants to a newer propane based one. I foresee lots of issues in the beginning. The R410A systems are still very reliable.

 

[MRD1985]

Yeah i had another thread on my oil boiler and peakbagger mentioned the fed rebates. Going to look into the NJ state program now. Thanks

State by state varies. But you can get up to 30% federal credit, capped at 2000$.

 

[Caw]

It’s Mitsubishi, which is a division of Trans. It wasn’t cheap and I did the work myself including pressure testing, vacuum and charging. But I had to run 175+ feet of line, mount 4 different heads (it’s a split system, variable refrigerant flow ). Not including tooling purchase, the line sets, as well as indoor and out door units, branch box, wiring/breakers and shut of box, extra line set insulation and making a concrete pad for outdoor unit, I was probably in it for 16000 or so. I had quotes of 30K to install it.

I would do it in the next year or so if you’re gonna do it. They’re changing refrigerants to a newer propane based one. I foresee lots of issues in the beginning. The R410A systems are still very reliable.

Yeah I was looking at mostly R-410a systems. Most quotes I'm seeing for my sized house are between $13,000 and $20,000 depending how fancy I want to get. The compressor is only like 20 feet from the air handler inside and it's a walkout with only the laundry in the way (which can easily be moved while they work) so I think it's a very straightforward job. Only outside work would be a new pad ours is a tad slanted.

I don't think I need to go crazy with the ultra low temp models. Id be happy with something that ran down to 20 degrees efficiently. It's really only running during spring and fall when it's 45-55 outside and as an AC in the summer. We keep it 75 all summer just to take the edge off and remove the humidity for the dog.

That's interesting about them switching to a propane refrigerant. I've been hesitant to switch because I don't want R-410a to turn into the next R-22 where I can't even recharge it and have to change again. I want the new one I buy to last 20 years if possible. My current one is 18 years old and doesn't owe us anything.

 

[MRD1985]

Yeah I was looking at mostly R-410a systems. Most quotes I'm seeing for my sized house are between $13,000 and $20,000 depending how fancy I want to get. The compressor is only like 20 feet from the air handler inside and it's a walkout with only the laundry in the way (which can easily be moved while they work) so I think it's a very straightforward job. Only outside work would be a new pad ours is a tad slanted.

I don't think I need to go crazy with the ultra low temp models. Id be happy with something that ran down to 20 degrees efficiently. It's really only running during spring and fall when it's 45-55 outside and as an AC in the summer. We keep it 75 all summer just to take the edge off and remove the humidity for the dog.

That's interesting about them switching to a propane refrigerant. I've been hesitant to switch because I don't want R-410a to turn into the next R-22 where I can't even recharge it and have to change again. I want the new one I buy to last 20 years if possible. My current one is 18 years old and doesn't owe us anything.

Eventually R410A is going to be come R22, but not for a long time. The system I bought is top of the line and pretty much the gold standard as far as split systems go for reliability and performance. It was only 500$ difference for outdoor unit between standard and cold climate rated so it was a no brainer at that point. The system kept our house at 67 degrees or cooler even when it was 100 outside. I had next to no electric bill even running it 24/7. It’s very efficient. Obviously will consume considerably more power for heating, though.

Bottom line is it is fully capable of heating this house (though the unit in the big room is sized better for cooling than for heating and may be slightly undersized for heating).

 

[Ashful]

I think you've mentioned it before but how do the middle stacks do in your shed? Are you burning 3 or 4 years old? I'm going from 2 to 3 deep in my area and will be on the 3 year plan so I'm curious how affected the middle rack will be. I have a primo drying area but it's all oak. So we'll see. I like to think it'll be fine but time will tell.

You did ask before, and I gave a wishy-washy answer, because I really don't know. I hadn't been doing a good job of keeping track from which row the wood came, when I moved it from those wood racks in my wood lot, up to the house for burning. Also, because I'm very inconsistent in my split size (I guess my attitude on this varies by month/year), and because each rack contains a different species, there are really too many variables for me to be confident in any conclusion I could give today.

BUT... do note I'm not 3 or 4 rows deep, either. The sheds are open on both faces, which was by design, both for airflow and easily accessibility. So it's not only a "blow thru" design, but also means no row of wood is more than "second row" deep from either side. Here's a goofy photo of one of them on the move from where I build them at my shop, down the hill to the wood lot where they're installed on piers, and you can see it's totally open on all sides, just a roof over four rows.



No, the wheels don't stay on it. That's just an old boat trailer axle I use for moving heavy things around the yard.

My advice to anyone is to make all sheds no more than 2 rows deep from any accessible side, lest you need to walk into them to retrieve wood. As it is now, I park my wagon next to the shed and literally dump wood right off the stack into the wagon.

Ok got it with you guys and the heat pumps. I always thought they had low temp limits.

They do, and as noted the low temperature limit has been trending downward over the years. They become horribly inefficient and terribly expensive to run at very cold temperatures, but if that's only a few days per year, that temporary high operating cost may still be less than the cost of installing or repairing a secondary system.

 

[Ashful]

Oh, and my "plan" is 3 summers CSS'd. However, because last year was so stupid warm, and because I was doing a little re-arranging that had me burning a few cords out of sequence last year, most of what I've been burning this year has been seasoned 4 summers.

 

[bigealta]

State by state varies. But you can get up to 30% federal credit, capped at 2000$.

Yeah looks like i won't meet low income requirements for NJ.
95% sure I could install a small gas boiler and connect the piping and probably the, i think, 4" chimney pipe. Would probably just need someone to check the burn readings an adjust as necessary.

But i have asbestos down there and the hulking old coal burner. But i'll put all this in the other thread i opened the other day.

 

[bigealta]

You did ask before, and I gave a wishy-washy answer, because I really don't know. I hadn't been doing a good job of keeping track from which row the wood came, when I moved it from those wood racks in my wood lot, up to the house for burning. Also, because I'm very inconsistent in my split size (I guess my attitude on this varies by month/year), and because each rack contains a different species, there are really too many variables for me to be confident in any conclusion I could give today.

BUT... do note I'm not 3 or 4 rows deep, either. The sheds are open on both faces, which was by design, both for airflow and easily accessibility. So it's not only a "blow thru" design, but also means no row of wood is more than "second row" deep from either side. Here's a goofy photo of one of them on the move from where I build them at my shop, down the hill to the wood lot where they're installed on piers, and you can see it's totally open on all sides, just a roof over four rows.

View attachment 323626

No, the wheels don't stay on it. That's just an old boat trailer axle I use for moving heavy things around the yard.

My advice to anyone is to make all sheds no more than 2 rows deep from any accessible side, lest you need to walk into them to retrieve wood. As it is now, I park my wagon next to the shed and literally dump wood right off the stack into the wagon.

View attachment 323625



They do, and as noted the low temperature limit has been trending downward over the years. They become horribly inefficient and terribly expensive to run at very cold temperatures, but if that's only a few days per year, that temporary high operating cost may still be less than the cost of installing or repairing a secondary system.

Hey Ash, curious as to why you put the roof rafters. parallel to the peak?