Solution needed for poor draft, please

[jatoxico]

Temp is at 445 taking a reading aiming just inside the stove and above what some people call the dog house in the center of the stove using a laser thermometer.

Reading your last post I believe I have a block off plate. I can also post some pics -- what would help?

An inside and outside shot. Type of cap and anything that could effect draft like close trees or roofline. If all else checks out then the solution is most likely short stack.

 

[Pinetar]

An inside and outside shot. Type of cap and anything that could effect draft like close trees or roofline. If all else checks out then the solution is most likely short stack.

Got it. I will update with pics tomorrow.

 

[Grisu]

I mean that there are flames coming out of the tubes on the roof of the stove while no flame is visible on the logs - this went on while as I was burning with the insert door locked and the window open - I watched this happen for 5-10 minutes; longer than I've seen them before -- btw is that the wrong term to describe this?

Ok, when you say "fire is out", you mean you don't see flames from the wood but you see flames in the top of the firebox coming from the burn tubes? Those are the secondaries which you want to have. Had you adjusted the air to get those? Can you sustain them? Do they disappear when you close the window?

I am going to chop up a kiln dried 2x4x8 I have and will burn that tomorrow.

Good plan as long as it is not pressure-treated.

No room or insulation behind the insert. It fit almost all the way to the back of the fireplace.

I hope there is enough room that the secondary air inlet is not blocked. Although you seeing secondaries now suggests it should be ok.

Yes, that is what I mean! I just retook it and It's reading about 415 - same spot you described. When I said inside stove I meant inside the vent, not aiming at the glass

Ok, you seem to be trying to get the stovetop/flue collar temp. Assuming your reading is correct, the temp is quite low. Can you check the spot just above the door before you hit the vent? Get close, maybe only 2 to 3 inches. The actual reading area will be just below the laser point.

 

[Hogwildz]

The secondaries flaming away are exactly what is supposed to be happening,
These stove burn from the top down once you have the door closed and the air cut back.
If you cut the air back, you should see even more secondaries, which is normal, they can run anywhere from an hour or so to a few hours. Again, normal.
You may or may not see flames lower on the wood, but if you have secondaries, you should be fine.
You may also find with the air intake cut back, the stove will rise in temp to higher temp and level off. This is your goal.
Don't focus on trying to keep the lower wood burning, get the secondaries going, and cut the air back.

For instance, I have a different stove, but similar burn type. I have a tall liner, so I must cut the air all the way low after it gets going well, as any additional air will let her rise like crazy.
Sounds like you need an outside air supply for the stove if you have a change opening a window or door of the house. The old ash dump should have been left open to grab air from, or an outside air kit at least ran to it.
Are you sure there is a difference when you open a door or window?
Again, secondaries are normal, and proper. That's what they are there for.
Do not get in a habit of leaving the air intake all the way open, or burning without the door completely latched closed. Experiment and close as far as you can without smouldering. You'll know if the temp drops, instead of rises.

 

[Pinetar]

Ok, when you say "fire is out", you mean you don't see flames from the wood but you see flames in the top of the firebox coming from the burn tubes? Those are the secondaries which you want to have. Had you adjusted the air to get those? Can you sustain them? Do they disappear when you close the window?

What I did here was lock the door tight but had a crank open bay window open a few inches. All visible flame went out in 50mins including the secondaries.

Good plan as long as it is not pressure-treated.

Yes!

I hope there is enough room that the secondary air inlet is not blocked. Although you seeing secondaries now suggests it should be ok.

I believe the open window was helping, I am adding this to the check list as I will have the installer back out.

Ok, you seem to be trying to get the stovetop/flue collar temp. Assuming your reading is correct, the temp is quite low. Can you check the spot just above the door before you hit the vent? Get close, maybe only 2 to 3 inches. The actual reading area will be just below the laser point.

Yes, this temp was bit lower I recall, closer to 400. What temp is optimal? I'm not sure how I could get this hotter? I do max fill it on the first start and get a few good splits in when I reach coals. I will try with the 2x4. Again the problem on re-fills is smoke in the house enough to say what the heck but not smoked out.

 

[Pinetar]

You may or may not see flames lower on the wood, but if you have secondaries, you should be fine.
You may also find with the air intake cut back, the stove will rise in temp to higher temp and level off. This is your goal.
Don't focus on trying to keep the lower wood burning, get the secondaries going, and cut the air back.

I wish I could cut the air back - I have to run the stove with the door slightly cracked for a few hours or all flames go out. Even then I cannot cut back the primary air. I usually crack the door again.

Sounds like you need an outside air supply for the stove if you have a change opening a window or door of the house. The old ash dump should have been left open to grab air from, or an outside air kit at least ran to it.
Are you sure there is a difference when you open a door or window?

I believe the window may have helped some, honestly it was late and temps were at 40 or slightly below on last nights temps. I will repeat on a colder night.

Do not get in a habit of leaving the air intake all the way open, or burning without the door completely latched closed. Experiment and close as far as you can without smouldering. You'll know if the temp drops, instead of rises.

I will try. I have about 30 fires with this stove under my belt and while that is nothing, I've never been able to dial back the primary air or lock the door completely for an extended time.

 

[Hogwildz]

How bout some photos of the setup inside, and the stack outside?

 

[Grisu]

I do max fill it on the first start and get a few good splits in when I reach coals.

The aim of a startup fire is to warm up the stove and flue fast. Put a few small/medium splits with lots of kindling in there; firebox maybe 1/3 full. Light it and let a good fire going for an extended period of time. If necessary keep the air fully open. Once that fire has burned down to coals with maybe a few flames, rake the coals forward and then you can stuff the firebox. Secondaries should get going much faster due to the insert already be warm.

Do you see the airwash working? Does it look like the flames get fanned from the front when you close the door? Maybe your primary air path is blocked somewhere.

 

[Hogwildz]

You can also try spreading the coals out on the entire firebox floor, this will give more ignition points to the fresh full load, AFTER a bed of coals is established from a starter load as Grisu advised.
It is futile to load a cold box full and try to get it up to temp, without it taking a long time.

 

[Pinetar]

How bout some photos of the setup inside, and the stack outside?

Here's the outside. For the inside just a general shot or the what the firebox looks like?

 

[Pinetar]

The aim of a startup fire is to warm up the stove and flue fast. Put a few small/medium splits with lots of kindling in there; firebox maybe 1/3 full. Light it and let a good fire going for an extended period of time. If necessary keep the air fully open. Once that fire has burned down to coals with maybe a few flames, rake the coals forward and then you can stuff the firebox. Secondaries should get going much faster due to the insert already be warm.

I will try this

Do you see the airwash working? Does it look like the flames get fanned from the front when you close the door? Maybe your primary air path is blocked somewhere.

I don't. I have confirmed that the primary air is working as when I shut it to the left it kills a good fire quickly.

 

[Hogwildz]

Inside full view of insert & inside firebox etc.
Just from the cap photos, I have to ask, is there a cap on the liner inside the larger screened cap? Tough to tell, but looks like the liner may be run up to or near the bottom of the larger cap.
If that is the case, that may be your draft problem.

Looks like 3 flues under that cap, which one is for the insert?
Another unrelated problem could arise with all 3 of those flues, one or two may downdraft exhaust from the 3rd if they are all the same height.

Sorry if I missed, but is your 15" height from the stove top, or the floor of the fireplace?

 

[Stoneduster]

Just to be sure, as it has not been stated yet, does the liner extend all the way to the top of the flue? Or does it just make its way through the throat of the fireplace? Just curious, only because you have not stated this explicitly.

 

[Pinetar]

Inside full view of insert & inside firebox etc.
Just from the cap photos, I have to ask, is there a cap on the liner inside the larger screened cap? Tough to tell, but looks like the liner may be run up to or near the bottom of the larger cap.
If that is the case, that may be your draft problem.

I should have specified. Middle is insert, no under cap, liner sits about 2-3 inches at best as I can tell from the top of the cap.

Another unrelated problem could arise with all 3 of those flues, one or two may downdraft exhaust from the 3rd if they are all the same height.

Sorry if I missed, but is your 15" height from the stove top, or the floor of the fireplace?

Stove top. I am subtracting 2ft from my floor to ceiling calc for the stove height. I'm estimating the chimney at 3ft. Its my best guestimate.

 

[Pinetar]

Just to be sure, as it has not been stated yet, does the liner extend all the way to the top of the flue? Or does it just make its way through the throat of the fireplace? Just curious, only because you have not stated this explicitly.

Yes, the recent pics are not great but you can see the plate in the middle flue and the liner extends to 2-3 of the top cap.

 

[Hogwildz]

2" is cutting it close, but may not be an issue. If it is that far away.
You may have to extend the flue up top there. Which would have to go through the large cap.
Go to the nearest big box store, buy a 5' section of 6" galv round duct, and temp it onto the end of the liner, see if that improves the draft any. You'll have to remove the large cap during this testing.

 

[Pinetar]

2" is cutting it close, but may not be an issue. If it is that far away.
You may have to extend the flue up top there. Which would have to go through the large cap.
Go to the nearest big box store, buy a 5' section of 6" galv round duct, and temp it onto the end of the liner, see if that improves the draft any. You'll have to remove the large cap during this testing.

Adding this to my list of things that need to be tried.

Pics of the inside:

 

[begreen]

Unless length is added to the chimney, the best improvement for draft is going to be colder weather. You should notice a nice difference when the daytime temps drop below freezing.

 

[Huntindog1]

I mean that there are flames coming out of the tubes on the roof of the stove while no flame is visible on the logs - this went on while as I was burning with the insert door locked and the window open - I watched this happen for 5-10 minutes; longer than I've seen them before -- btw is that the wrong term to describe this?

I am going to chop up a kiln dried 2x4x8 I have and will burn that tomorrow.

No room or insulation behind the insert. It fit almost all the way to the back of the fireplace.

re-adjust your input air so there is just a little lazy flame coming off the splits along with the secondary flames up top. Alot of times just secondary flames isnt enough to maintain things it takes a small amount of flames on the main wood load.

 

[jatoxico]

A test with an extra couple ft of pipe is in order, that is assuming there's nothing obstructing flow like that big cap being too tight to the liner. Were you able to slide the skamol bricks aside or pop the surround? Still wondering if the liner is pinched but betting on too short a stack.

Draft issue aside, a little info about the 550 specifically. In one of your pics the ash looks almost high enough to obstruct the dog house air, probably not, but almost. The dog house is the little square riser between the andirons. It is a source of air that is not in your control. Keep that area clear of ash and at start up I usually clear out a channel in the ash from that point straight back so that air can get to the fuel. I also do a lot of cold starts and my first load is thinner stuff, some pine mixed with hardwood and loosely stacked, nice and airy.

I know you are having trouble with draft and can't cut air but for the future, the primary air controlled by the slider allows air to enter just above the door along the arch. Primary air should be cut back in increments, maybe 1/4" or even less at a time, wait a few minutes in between until you get to the desired burn setting.

Get a stove top thermometer in the vent. I run about 500-600 for the most part. I use an IR as well but the regular old magnetic stove top thermo is my easy reference.

 

[Pinetar]

A test with an extra couple ft of pipe is in order, that is assuming there's nothing obstructing flow like that big cap being too tight to the liner. Were you able to slide the skamol bricks aside or pop the surround? Still wondering if the liner is pinched but betting on too short a stack.

I did. My light was poor but nothing looked pinched.

Draft issue aside, a little info about the 550 specifically. In one of your pics the ash looks almost high enough to obstruct the dog house air, probably not, but almost. The dog house is the little square riser between the andirons.

Yikes, just checked and it's clogged up with ash, I will vac it out.

It is a source of air that is not in your control. Keep that area clear of ash and at start up I usually clear out a channel in the ash from that point straight back so that air can get to the fuel. I also do a lot of cold starts and my first load is thinner stuff, some pine mixed with hardwood and loosely stacked, nice and airy.

Will follow this advice and what you mentioned about the cutting the air back.

Get a stove top thermometer in the vent. I run about 500-600 for the most part. I use an IR as well but the regular old magnetic stove top thermo is my easy reference.

Will do, I don't think I've hit 500 or over. Will focus on fuller fills. Next test will incorporate all the good mentions is this thread.

 

[Pinetar]

Problem solved and what a difference. SS liner was split on the elbow. Stove retailer can down and made it right. 550 runs like a jet engine now.

 

[jatoxico]

Problem solved and what a difference. SS liner was split on the elbow. Stove retailer can down and made it right. 550 runs like a jet engine now.

Well that would do it. Good to hear you got it fixed, how did you find the split?

 

[Pinetar]

Well that would do it. Good to hear you got it fixed, how did you find the split?

Well, we just pulled the surround off, shined a light in and there it was! They pulled the stove out and put a nice new elbow in that was much beefier than the original (tac welds all along the elbow)

 

[jatoxico]

Well, we just pulled the surround off, shined a light in and there it was! They pulled the stove out and put a nice new elbow in that was much beefier than the original (tac welds all along the elbow)

All right buddy! My 550 is feasting on a load of locust an oak. Cruising at 650, blasting secondaries and heating my big split ranch nicely.