Ready to Join The Gang - Time For a Wood Stove!
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Sure, the Woodstocks I've run have been pretty much foolproof. But my Buck 91, on a 22' interior stack, demands that you take some variables into account. The only cat stoves with 'training wheels' are the BKs, with their thermostats.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I think you already got the answer on this. If you want to discuss further, we can start a separate thread and link back here.
So, you're finding that running the fans cools the stove to the point where your thermometer indicates you may be killing secondary combustion. First, I'd try to determine if that's even true, and one of our non-cat experts can surely help you figure that one out. Second, short of killing secondary combustion, fans have very little impact on the efficiency of a stove (meaning fraction of heat into house versus heat up the chimney), in most standard installations. The exception to this rule is when the stove is very near a masonry structure (eg. your fireplace), where the fans may be increasing convective coefficient, and thus reducing the heat radiated off the back of the stove into the masonry. In my house, I have to run fans, or I'm putting half my wood into heating the back yard. Others with well-insulated stick-frame houses see no benefit at all, in their installations.
That's not training wheels, it's cruise control.Sure, the Woodstocks I've run have been pretty much foolproof. But my Buck 91, on a 22' interior stack, demands that you take some variables into account. The only cat stoves with 'training wheels' are the BKs, with their thermostats.
Check post #225. I already started the apologies as I realize as this thread continues to grow, I'm getting repetitive with some of my questions. I think what's happening now is that my questions were first geared towards understanding basic principles before I had anything to apply them to. Not that my questions have actual application, they're a bit more refined and specific to my circumstances. And then of course, with 101 new things to learn, I might have only retained 20% of it so far
Gotta do a better job of looking back then asking again though. My bad!Let me clarify. I was not trying to say that running the fan actually cooled my firebox. What I was saying was that I can get the house warm without the need of the fans, at least in this mild weather (except what on Earth?! I work up this morning and it's snowing). But when I'm not using the fans, I feel like I'm wasting heat that is being generated. And since my stove is right inside of my fireplace, it does seem like the fans would be a wise choice to use. So that leads me to believe that I'm probably burning a hotter fire than necessary if I'm not using my fans. And if I'm not factoring in other variables, it seems like it would make the most sense to just run a fire that's not as hot, and then switch the fans on. But then again, we hit those creosote levels.
It's a balancing game with many variables that I'm having a hard time grasping at these early stages.
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Squisher
Minister of Fire
I will add that the good dry wood is not just a requirement for the reburner/tube stoves. I cleaned a BK King cat last week that's chimney was creo'd up like no tomorrow. I'm sure wood was an issue because he was buying out of the classifieds and burning it straight away. Not saying user error wasn't part of it too and not trying to totally derail your thread.
I'll use my IR gun tonight, like Begreen suggested, and see what sort of readings I get on the front part of my stove,similar to where your thermometer is placed on your summit insert. So we can compare a bit more.
I've only been diving in here so much because I have the exact same model(as a freestanding stove) and would like to see you get dialled in to some good and safe burning.
I'll use my IR gun tonight, like Begreen suggested, and see what sort of readings I get on the front part of my stove,similar to where your thermometer is placed on your summit insert. So we can compare a bit more.
I've only been diving in here so much because I have the exact same model(as a freestanding stove) and would like to see you get dialled in to some good and safe burning.
I appreciate the help Squisher. I'm definitely noticing more and more that if I'm not feeding my stove with dry wood, it's gotta have completely open air flow for far too long, wasting way too much energy. I think it was begreen who mentioned that even if you can get a few pieces of dry wood in there along with the 20-25% wood, it will make a noticeable difference.
Maybe save the current wood supply for next season and see if there is good, kiln, or shed dried wood sold in your area?
Yes, that's the plan. I hear there is this place called Cord King that does it is a primary business, not a side thing.
http://cordkingfirewood.com/
Not too far from me, so I think they're #1 on my call list.
They sell regular seasoned wood, advertised at < 25% moisture. They also sell kiln dried wood advertised at 6-8% moisture. I'll give them a call and see what the prices are and report back to see what you guys think.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
The heat is only "wasted" if it's going up the chimney, either in solid particulate (potential energy) or heat (kinetic energy) form, and I don't think that's your case. Burning hot might deliver more heat than you desire, but it's not wasted!
If you have a woodlot and a saw, and can find small, dead-standing trees with no bark, a lot of that will be around 20%. Those small ones start adding up to a decent amount of wood if you can find several...
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Maybe I'm wording things incorrectly.
It seems that by the time the stove actually gets to a proper temperature where I can lower the air flow, that a good chunk of the wood is already burned down. Doesn't it "waste energy" to have to spend heat drying out the wood?
Squisher
Minister of Fire
Yes. Burning even wettish wood is very wasteful. You will always fight heat vs wasting wood vs creosote. But I get that sometimes you have to burn what ya got, espescially when starting out. Also now is the time to be sourcing/prepping wood for next year and the year after. I am in a fairly unique area where it's very dry and predominantly all softwoods. If I get wood C/S/S in the spring and into my shed I can burn it by that fall. Hot and dry and open to the wind but completely covered from all precipitation. Most are not so lucky.
Last winter we only had green wood for heat. I put a hearth grate on top of the stove and baked a stove load of wood.
Reloading the grate each time we loaded the stove.
WE went from foaming sizzling wood that barely burned, to wood that lit instantly and burned hot (maple)
We really got to like the smell of baking maple wood, and all the evaporated water from the wood went into the house instead of wasted up the chimney .
IF YOU TRY THIS
You have to keep the top of the stove clear of chips and scraps or they char and make smoke. we used hearth bellows to clear them.
Don't let any wood touch the stove or it will burn, I laid gas stove grates on the stove to keep any wood contact from happening.
My infrared thermometer showed that the wood on top never got over 300 F.
Reloading the grate each time we loaded the stove.
WE went from foaming sizzling wood that barely burned, to wood that lit instantly and burned hot (maple)
We really got to like the smell of baking maple wood, and all the evaporated water from the wood went into the house instead of wasted up the chimney .
IF YOU TRY THIS
You have to keep the top of the stove clear of chips and scraps or they char and make smoke. we used hearth bellows to clear them.
Don't let any wood touch the stove or it will burn, I laid gas stove grates on the stove to keep any wood contact from happening.
My infrared thermometer showed that the wood on top never got over 300 F.
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brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Wood can/will burn (ignite) at 425*-450* (F)...wood that has been baked (pyrolosis) (SP?) will ignite as low as 190*
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I'd add that I'd not try this unless you're going to be near the stove for the entire duration. I'd definitely not be comfortable leaving the house, with a load of wood baking atop the stove, no matter how many times you did this without incident.
my wife is a home maker, and homeschools the kids, someone was always in the room.
I'm not saying it is the best idea, but it made our wood burning season possible.
Most of the time the stove was burning the wood on top was not much over 100 F and rarely over 200. It was also spaced 4 inches above the stove.
The top of my stove is not the hottest part as the smoke baffle Coaly recomends for Fisher stoves makes the lower step on the top the hottest part, and the upper step much cooler.
Random question #13027.
How much would a single rainfall impact uncovered seasoned wood, and do you need to bring to a sheltered area for a few days before use to dry out again?
How much would a single rainfall impact uncovered seasoned wood, and do you need to bring to a sheltered area for a few days before use to dry out again?
Very little effect . . . if you are making a fire from a cold start there may be a little more challenge, but otherwise (in most cases -- assuming your wood isn't punky or the bark has not absorbed some of the moisture) you should have few problems. I would bring it inside and let it dry for a few hours . . . but a single storm or rain fall will not make the wood bad for use.
I find that temperature hard to believe considering that paper must be higher than that to ignite .
After all, you can boil water in a paper cup if you are careful
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
I did too...and unfortunately I can't seem to find the resource where I found this info. Now mind you this is not just any piece of wood, like I said, this would be after significant pyrolysis...which can lower the autoignition temp to almost unbelievably low temps.
That's one reason (among others) that you see old houses that suddenly catch fire to timbers right next to the chimney, after years and years of chimney use, including chimney fires, etc, without the actual house framing catching fire before.
Maybe @bholler can shed some light on where I may have found this info before (and confirm or deny my numbers)
He is right I will try to find the info but I know it is right. Drying wood on top of a wood stove is a very bad idea. I don't care how many times you have done it it is still a bad idea.
Sawset
Minister of Fire
"Wood can/will burn (ignite) at 425*-450* (F)...wood that has been baked (pyrolosis) (SP?) will ignite as low as 190*"
Here is one reference I have seen related to this.
https://www.doctorfire.com/low_temp_wood1.pdf
Here is one reference I have seen related to this.
https://www.doctorfire.com/low_temp_wood1.pdf
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Thank you, that was one of the articles that I had read...I was off on the low temp ignition though...170*F, not 190
That link says less than 250C for years, I'm talking about 2-4 hours on maple cut with green leaves on it.
Baking wood is actually an old idea from back when you had to have a wood pile as big as the house to make it through the winter... hard to get ahead that way and keep the farm.
Baking wood is actually an old idea from back when you had to have a wood pile as big as the house to make it through the winter... hard to get ahead that way and keep the farm.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
I'm not arguing that it has been done successfully, I'm just making people aware of pyrolysis, that in general it is not a safe practice to bake wood on the stove, and that wood can and does ignite at a much lower temp than most would think sometimes.
This was cut from the last line of the first paragraph of that article...
"The available practical guidance—i.e., the fires that have been documented to have occurred when
wood members were exposed to heating sources at 77ºC (170ºF) or higher—forms a reliable, scientific basis for
concluding that an ignition hazard exists if a heat source at 77ºC or higher is applied to a wood member for a protracted period of time."
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