Poor draft?

[Mandoo]

Hate to be Mr. Obvious but have to ask, have you made sure that your air intake control on the stove is working free and clear and no packing materials or mechanical obstructions? To die out that fast seems like a 100% no air snuff out.

 

[SPED]

Obvious suggestions are welcome ;-) I did check the air intake hole in the back of the stove, and didn't feel anything in there, but I can't get my hand in very far. Anyone else know of specific packing materials that would interfere with this stove and where they might be?

 

[crazy_dan]

I will apologize in advance, but I could not resit.

hook up the outside air kit then put a fan/blower in it so the air is forced in to the stove and out the chimney.. I believe that will fix your draft or lack there of issue LOL

 

[SPED]

I'd be lying if I said that didn't cross my mind ;-)

 

[swestall]

Craig's comment about having to heat the chimney up is important, because it is an outside masonary mass, it is going to take a lot of heat to get the draft working. Especially with the resistance that you get with an EPA stove.
A SS liner would heat up faster, not sure if you could get an insulated 6 inch SS liner down there, but certainly a non insulated 6 inch or even insulated 5.5 inch.
About the cost, if you intend to burn for a long time in this house, the new EPA stove is worth it; and relining will improve safety and function. So its not an expense that you planned on but it could be very worth your while in wood savings and safety.
Can you snake a piece of coat hanger wire through the draft chamber, or blow through it with the vacuum hose in reverse? These might tell you something. I know this might be a stupid question, but which setting is open and which is closed - forward/back: I made that mistake on a friends stove.....
I'd line it no matter what, and you can solve the height problem easily with one of those nice chimney extenders that are about 2 feet tall.

 

[Mandoo]

I don't want to give bad advise but think about this. You can start a fire have the doors open (can you open them all the way) and have no smoke rolling back into the room? If it's pulling hard enough to light off with out too much trouble and be smoke free then Why can't it pull enough air with the door closed? Something is restricting your air? I know Mr. Obvious again but I'd be tearing it apart or testing for air flow!

 

[SPED]

I read the manual a few times, and i'm sure that out is open, i did try pushin in and it snuffed the fire even faster. As far as air restriction I don't know how many parts I can even get to to check that. I'll try the coathanger thing. Does everyone's stove make a metal grating noise when opening closing the air control? Not like a horrible sound but like the sound of a shovel across a metal stove when getting ashes.

 

[Hogwildz]

I wouldn't give up so quickly. Call Mike at Englander 800-245-6489
How tall is the chimney? Did you try to crack a window nearest the stove and see if the fire picks up?

 

[SPED]

Yeah I def want to talk to Mike before I make a final decision, I did try the window thing I opened one that's only about 6' from the stove. I sent Mike a PM cuz I'm stuck in conf calls for the next few hours.

Anyone interested in a gently used englander ;-)

 

[SPED]

Chimney total height is prob 20-24 feet. From the top of the stove, prob only about 12' or so, it goes from the top floor through the attic for a few feet, then about 4 feet through the lower roof.

 

[Hogwildz]

Chimney total height is prob 20-24 feet. From the top of the stove, prob only about 12' or so, it goes from the top floor through the attic for a few feet, then about 4 feet through the lower roof.

Did you plug the old chimney up just below where the stove pipe meets the thimble? How long is the horizontal pipe from the stove to the thinble? And is it pitch upwards towards the thimble about 1/4" per foot? One thing to TEMPORARILY try, is to see if lack of stove to top chimney height... buy a cheap pc of galvanizedround duct at Lowes, connect it to the top of the chimney (stuff some rockwool or unfaced fiberglass) around to seal the pipe to the clay liner top & see if it drafts better. Try say 4 foot or so. ONly to see if it drafts better, if it does, then you need to extend the chimney, line it, or maybe get an extend a cap. Worth a shot for $10.00 or so.

 

[SPED]

You know I was thinking about trying that, but I figured everyone would laugh I did stuff the insulation in below the thimble, had some unfaced laying around.

 

[Hogwildz]

The other thing you could try, although it may not work, is unstuff below the thimble, and open that ash cleanout at the bottom of the chimney, see if the draw from that helps pull draft from the stove. It ain't much, but easy enough to try. Id still try adding the length to the top and see what happens.

 

[Corie]

You're definitely not leaving the door cracked long enough. That stove, especially on a marginally drafting chimney, needs to burn for some time with the door open before it is ready for door closed, high efficiency operation. It's just a function of having such a large firebox and a single air control entering from the front.

Start your fire normally, with the door cracked and air control open. Let your kindling burn hot, add finger sized or slightly larger hardwood splits, let them burn brightly to large coals with the door cracked. Add slightly larger splits with the door still cracked and wait for them to char and start burning brightly. Then try shutting the door. If the fire immediately dwindles, open the door back up and wait a while longer before trying again. You'll develop an eye for how hot a fire needs to be before shutting the door.

Also, make sure you arrange splits so that air can flow from the front of the stove all the way to the back. Remember air is flowing down across the entire glass surface, as well as being blown out the hole on the front of the dogbox. Make sure there is a clear valley from the dogbox hole all the way to the back of the firebox.

But just be patient. Once you get it warmed and running good, it has been my experience that you won't need to repeat the door open procedure unless you're starting from cold again. Also, just a disclaimer, if you're operating with the door open for any reason, stay BY THE STOVE. You don't want an overfire to happen. Stay near it until you can shut the door and you'll be fine.

This advice comes from someone operating a 12 foot chimney, so trust me, I know allllll about weak draft.

 

[SPED]

You're definitely not leaving the door cracked long enough. That stove, especially on a marginally drafting chimney, needs to burn for some time with the door open before it is ready for door closed, high efficiency operation. It's just a function of having such a large firebox and a single air control entering from the front.

Start your fire normally, with the door cracked and air control open. Let your kindling burn hot, add finger sized or slightly larger hardwood splits, let them burn brightly to large coals with the door cracked. Add slightly larger splits with the door still cracked and wait for them to char and start burning brightly. Then try shutting the door. If the fire immediately dwindles, open the door back up and wait a while longer before trying again. You'll develop an eye for how hot a fire needs to be before shutting the door.

Also, make sure you arrange splits so that air can flow from the front of the stove all the way to the back. Remember air is flowing down across the entire glass surface, as well as being blown out the hole on the front of the dogbox. Make sure there is a clear valley from the dogbox hole all the way to the back of the firebox.

But just be patient. Once you get it warmed and running good, it has been my experience that you won't need to repeat the door open procedure unless you're starting from cold again. Also, just a disclaimer, if you're operating with the door open for any reason, stay BY THE STOVE. You don't want an overfire to happen. Stay near it until you can shut the door and you'll be fine.

This advice comes from someone operating a 12 foot chimney, so trust me, I know allllll about weak draft.

Corie, thanks lot's of great info there, what I did last night was to keep the door cracked for well over two hours(yes i was sitting right next to it) all the way up until I had some good size splits going, went from kindling to small splits to bigger splits, stove at 500 and still when I shut the door, it died down after about 30 seconds. Have you had to reopen the door even at this point? I just want to be sure I'm explaining this right(which i'm prob not ;-))

For arranging the splits should I put them north south or east west?

 

[Corie]

And the air control is fully open when pulled out, fully closed when pushed in. The noise is normal, as there is metal to metal contact in the air control.

 

[Hogwildz]

Corie made a good point, load that thing front to back (North to South) leaving space between the pcs of wood for air to get to back.

 

[SPED]

And the air control is fully open when pulled out, fully closed when pushed in. The noise is normal, as there is metal to metal contact in the air control.

Ok thanks, I thought so, cuz it feels like it's moving something, that it was ok, but wanted to make sure i wasn't doing something really stupid(wouldn't be the first time)

 

[Corie]

Whoa, two hours? That's not right.


The most I've ever had to babysit that particular stove from a cold start is about an hour. After two hours of burning, you should have had a HOT stove, a bed of coals and should been ready for door closed operation, no problem.


I think you need to more carefully examine the draft situation then. Why don't you have a local chimney sweep come out and measure your draft with the door closed? I've fought with wet wood, poor draft, etc, but I think you have worse draft than even I do.

 

[SPED]

Whoa, two hours? That's not right.


The most I've ever had to babysit that particular stove from a cold start is about an hour. After two hours of burning, you should have had a HOT stove, a bed of coals and should been ready for door closed operation, no problem.


I think you need to more carefully examine the draft situation then. Why don't you have a local chimney sweep come out and measure your draft with the door closed? I've fought with wet wood, poor draft, etc, but I think you have worse draft than even I do.

Ok, I was wondering if this was something a chimney sweep could do. Just to be sure I'm doing this right, where exactly should he measure and what is the meter called? Anybody know any good chimney sweeps near albany?

 

[SPED]

Whoa, two hours? That's not right.


The most I've ever had to babysit that particular stove from a cold start is about an hour. After two hours of burning, you should have had a HOT stove, a bed of coals and should been ready for door closed operation, no problem.


I think you need to more carefully examine the draft situation then. Why don't you have a local chimney sweep come out and measure your draft with the door closed? I've fought with wet wood, poor draft, etc, but I think you have worse draft than even I do.

One more thing, the two hour run was before I sealed up the cleanout and the pipe going into the thimble I then did the fire you see in the pics, so maybe I just need to try what I did last night one more time? It wasn't more than an hour that I watched on the fire today, and as you can see not as big of splits yet, still in the small/medium stage. Sorry, should have been more clear on that.

 

[Corie]

Yeah, try it again, if you can since you've made some changes. Use dry kindling and dry splits. The object is to get everything HOT! Let me know and we'll go from there.

 

[SPED]

Thanks so much for the help, I will try that in the next few hours and report back.

 

[Corie]

Sounds good, I'll be around for the remainder of the day, so I look forward to hearing your results.

Remember to cut a valley in the coals/ash from the dog box back, so that air can flow all the way through to the rear of the firebox. And load north-south for the first layer of splits. Next layer East-West, and alternate until full.

 

[swestall]

HEY Corie, Do you agree with longer term lining this stack?