Over burning/over draft

[Inthewoods2019]

It is the chimney pulling to much vacuum on the stove. I am not saying you should have to pay the bill you hired them to install the stove in a way that it works it is their responsibility to do that. Sometimes we need to eat a loss on a job to keep the customer happy and maintain our reputation.

But yes from what i am hearing the chimney is pulling to much draft for the stove. So it is a problem with the chimney.

Ultimately it will come down to the wording of the contract to determine if you are on the hook for the bill legally

VC Merrimack insert, 17ft chimny. Admittedly very different from the OP's regular stove.

Yes, it all comes down to the service agreement. And honestly it sounds like the OP isn't necessarily having a malfunctioning stove as he never said it was glowing just that it's running hotter than he would like. But it's not operating how he would like and sometimes you have to figure that out on your own in my opinion.

Actually I may retract my statement that he shouldn't have to pay because again his stove isn't really malfunctioning just that it's not operating how he would like it to. It's a grey area really but there's nothing wrong with having a civil conversation with the service provider.

Now that I think more about it, the tech did infact solve the problem by taping the boost air hole so maybe they should be paid for that. However, as a business owner sometimes a little time and effort to make sure the customer is happy is a cost of business that should be considered a write off.

I guess I should have been clearer about the issue... yes it did have a very strong red glow in the front centre of the fire box and we as well as the dealer initially thought it was the ash clean out (we do not have a ash tray), that may have a bad gasket, so they changed it... but made no difference.
It was not only that it did not burn like we wanted it, but more importantly it did not have the burn time it was supposed to (8-10hr). So we would have to put wood in at night, plus it made the house too hot.
Thank you to all of you for your input and advice on this matter... you went above and beyond, much appreciated!
We will be having a firm talk with the dealer and hopefully we can come to a comfortable arrangement for both.
We still believe that the only reason it appears that the chimney is pulling too much is due to the air boost hole that is giving it the air to pull. Basic science.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

It's a bit unusual to have draft issues with a 16' flue so I can understand why the installer did not perceive this to be an issue initially.

Plus when he put a flue damper in the draft gauge did not move.
So not a chimney issue.
But cover the air hole and we are in normal draft and stove works well, as described in manual.
Chimney worked well with other stoves and we have a second chimney ( exactly the same kind and set up) in another part of the house with a wood cook stove hooked on it and it works well and the chimney temperature reads between 300-500 with the fire box burning hot to cook on.
Strange it has no draft issues.

 

[Woody Stover]

I think his previous stoves were old smoke-bombers that you could cut the air on, any time you wanted.

Yes sorry to disappoint your assumptions...But we had a 2017 JA Roby Cuisiniere wood cook stove.

Chimney worked well with other stoves and we have a second chimney ( exactly the same kind and set up) in another part of the house with a wood cook stove

So what were the other stoves that you had on the chimney in question?

 

[Inthewoods2019]

So what were the other stoves that you had on the chimney in question?

JA Roby cook stove, Kozy air tight, Savoy cook stove by Sackville Refineries and a small air tight by Drolet.

 

[bholler]

I guess I should have been clearer about the issue... yes it did have a very strong red glow in the front centre of the fire box and we as well as the dealer initially thought it was the ash clean out (we do not have a ash tray), that may have a bad gasket, so they changed it... but made no difference.
It was not only that it did not burn like we wanted it, but more importantly it did not have the burn time it was supposed to (8-10hr). So we would have to put wood in at night, plus it made the house too hot.
Thank you to all of you for your input and advice on this matter... you went above and beyond, much appreciated!
We will be having a firm talk with the dealer and hopefully we can come to a comfortable arrangement for both.
We still believe that the only reason it appears that the chimney is pulling too much is due to the air boost hole that is giving it the air to pull. Basic science.

The problem with your reasoning is that the stove does not make draft. The chimney does and clearly your chimney is making to much draft for this stove.

 

[bholler]

JA Roby cook stove, Kozy air tight, Savoy cook stove by Sackville Refineries and a small air tight by Drolet.

By air tights do you mean old stoves with no secondary combustion system?

 

[Inthewoods2019]

The problem with you reasoning is that the stove does not make draft. The chimney does and clearly your chimney is making to much draft for this stove.

Yes but chimney can only pull/draft if it has air to pull from. Needs air to cause a draft, and it didn’t do it on the other stoves, ( they didn’t have a air boost hole).
Also if it’s purpose is to boost the fire why is it not able to be controlled/ shut when you don’t need it to boost? Once the fire is going you should be able to control the air... like the draft damper.

 

[bholler]

Yes but chimney can only pull/draft if it has air to pull from. Needs air to cause a draft, and it didn’t do it on the other stoves, ( they didn’t have a air boost hole).
Also if it’s purpose is to boost the fire why is it not able to be controlled/ shut when you don’t need it to boost? Once the fire is going you should be able to control the air... like the draft damper.

I give up good luck.

 

[begreen]

Yes but chimney can only pull/draft if it has air to pull from. Needs air to cause a draft, and it didn’t do it on the other stoves, ( they didn’t have a air boost hole).

Actually it doesn't need air. The draft is always present when there is a pressure/temperature differential between the room and the outside air. A 16' chimney is not very tall so one has to wonder if the room is slightly more pressurized than normal for some reason. This can be a factor of house construction.

Also if it’s purpose is to boost the fire why is it not able to be controlled/ shut when you don’t need it to boost? Once the fire is going you should be able to control the air... like the draft damper.

Some stoves (like Quadrafires with ACC) have a control on boost air, but most don't. It's another lever or control that can be spaced out or overlooked. For simplicity sake the boost air is kept open and small. This is typical of many popular stoves from Jotul, Englander, etc.

 

[Woody Stover]

why is it not able to be controlled/ shut when you don’t need it to boost? Once the fire is going you should be able to control the air... like the draft damper.

Get a Buck 91, then. Just kidding...

 

[Inthewoods2019]

Actually it doesn't need air. The draft is always present when there is a pressure/temperature differential between the room and the outside air. A 16' chimney is not very tall so one has to wonder if the room is slightly more pressurized than normal for some reason. This can be a factor of house construction.

Some stoves (like Quadrafires with ACC) have a control on boost air, but most don't. It's another lever or control that can be spaced out or overlooked. For simplicity sake the boost air is kept open and small. This is typical of many popular stoves from Jotul, Englander, etc.

Thanks for the explanation.
You said you may have a chance to see a new Super LE in your area working... did you ever see one and was there any issues?

 

[begreen]

No, I hope to get up to Tom's shop sometime this summer, but so far I don't see any issues. This looks like an evolutionary change, similar to that between the Summit A and Summit B. I'd love to try an EBT2 on our old T6, but I'm not sure it would retrofit easily.

 

[mar13]

Thanks again to all of you for your help. Yes we are going to keep the air booster pipe hole closed as it seems to be the issue. All appears to work well with it closed off and as long as we are not creating a smoke dragon or worst... then we are happy with the stove.

Now we just have to deal with PE and the stove store about the warranty and incurred cost thus far. ( at 65$ an hour our pension income does not have that kind of budget).

If PE had sent the correct manual with it and trained the sales rep and the tech to know the ins and outs of the stove... none of this would have been necessary.

So after burning some more fires with the boost hole adjustment in place, are now you satisfied with the stove's performance?

Hopefully you were able to reach some fair and reasonable agreement with the billing.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

So after burning some more fires with the boost hole adjustment in place, are now you satisfied with the stove's performance?

Hopefully you were able to reach some fair and reasonable agreement with the billing.

Yes with the air boost hole closed we are getting a full 8-10 hours burn and able to control the fire temperature. It seems to work fine.
We have not been able to come to any conclusion with the dealer as the boss was on holidays and now we are unable to get out due to road conditions (spring thaw on dirt road).
But we will get to the store as soon as possible so we can see how the stove they tried there works and go over the bill with them.
Thanks for the inquiry.

 

[bholler]

Yes with the air boost hole closed we are getting a full 8-10 hours burn and able to control the fire temperature. It seems to work fine.
We have not been able to come to any conclusion with the dealer as the boss was on holidays and now we are unable to get out due to road conditions (spring thaw on dirt road).
But we will get to the store as soon as possible so we can see how the stove they tried there works and go over the bill with them.
Thanks for the inquiry.

Trying a stove on a different chimney will have absolutely no bearing on how yours works on your chimney. Stoves will run completely different depending upon the strength of draft created by the chimney.

 

[begreen]

Yes, and to clarify, this is an unusual case. Folks should not go out and start covering openings or modifying their stove unless there is a direct and certain need. Under most circumstances, the factory design works well.

 

[mar13]

Yes with the air boost hole closed we are getting a full 8-10 hours burn and able to control the fire temperature. It seems to work fine.

That's great that you at least have a stove that you are now happy with. Also a good sign that there can be success with nonCat stoves for EPA2020.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

Trying a stove on a different chimney will have absolutely no bearing on how yours works on your chimney. Stoves will run completely different depending upon the strength of draft created by the chimney.

Yes we agree with you. But they want us to haul our stove to their store to try it on that chimney... because they took a new stove just like ours and said it ran perfectly fine with the air boost hole open. HOWEVER, they have a 45 and a 90 in their chimney and it is hooked onto 4 other stoves (due to show room).
So we are not wanting to go to that great effort to take our stove there when it appears we are not comparing apples with apples.
Also weather it’s right or wrong to have altered the air boost ( which we would not like to have done) the fact is it is now working good. Circumstances alter cases I guess.

 

[bholler]

Yes we agree with you. But they want us to haul our stove to their store to try it on that chimney... because they took a new stove just like ours and said it ran perfectly fine with the air boost hole open. HOWEVER, they have a 45 and a 90 in their chimney and it is hooked onto 4 other stoves (due to show room).
So we are not wanting to go to that great effort to take our stove there when it appears we are not comparing apples with apples.
Also weather it’s right or wrong to have altered the air boost ( which we would not like to have done) the fact is it is now working good. Circumstances alter cases I guess.

I agree it would be pointless other than to prove it is not a problem with the stove

 

[bholler]

That's great that you at least have a stove that you are now happy with. Also a good sign that there can be success with nonCat stoves for EPA2020.

How does it tell us anything about 2020 stoves? It simply tells us that if your chimney creates 3x the specified draft the stove won't work right and you need to reduce draft somehow.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

I agree it would be pointless other than to prove it is not a problem with the stove

Yes

 

[Inthewoods2019]

How does it tell us anything about 2020 stoves? It simply tells us that if your chimney creates 3x the specified draft the stove won't work right and you need to reduce draft somehow.

Since the air boost hole is a prelude to installing the cat for the 2020 emissions... is it possible that having the air boost with out the cat that it may cause the stove to not work properly? Would the cat cause more resistance or something that may require the air boost?

 

[bholler]

Since the air boost hole is a prelude to installing the cat for the 2020 emissions... is it possible that having the air boost with out the cat that it may cause the stove to not work properly? Would the cat cause more resistance or something that may require the air boost?

I don't know the stove but I can tell you they are designed and tested to work on about -.05" of draft. You had way more than that which caused the problem. It is an excessive draft problem not a problem with the stove.

 

[begreen]

The boost air hole is not "a prelude to a cat". These stoves have had boost air from the beginning circa 1990. There will be no cat on these stoves.
Your stove is the 2020 approved version.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

The boost air hole is not "a prelude to a cat". These stoves have had boost air from the beginning circa 1990. There will be no cat on these stoves.
Your stove is the 2020 approved version.

Well that’s not what we were told by the dealer who sold it to us. We were told all stoves will have cats installed and you will not be able to purchase one without it.
Also the air boost and the “over heat box” ( what it’s called???) are new features and were installed on this new model as preludes to the 2020 regulations and they were not adding additional cost at this time for the new features.
This was the information we got from the dealer who has been selling PE stoves for many years.
Who is full of the stuff from behind the barn I don’t know, but we are only the purchasers and are getting very frustrated with the BS we are getting from all sides.
Also the fact that we are being held responsible for a bill that never should have happened IF the dealer was knowledgeable on the product, the repair person was trained on the products “new” features, and if PE had properly trained/ informed there sales rep. Not to forget the fact that they didn’t have correct information/ booklet with the product for the customer.
So now this feed continually contradicts what we were told and yet seems no one has seen or knows this stove.
We’ Confused ‍♂️... no kidding!