new Vapor Fire 100 with very poor heat

[brenndatomu]

The markup/profit margins on the closed cell foam kits are criminal.

Yeah you know its bad when you can often hire a pro to come in and do the job for you for about the same price as buying the DIY kit!

 

[SpaceBus]

Yeah you know its bad when you can often hire a pro to come in and do the job for you for about the same price as buying the DIY kit!

It's absurd. Poly foam is amazing and I feel like it's being priced out of the markets that need it the most. To do one wall of my house to exceed the r23 rockwool we have now would be $1,400, and that's a froth pak setup for 1,240 board feet.... For now I'll buy small cans to seal the house and keep going forward with the rockwool.

 

[brenndatomu]

Poly foam is amazing and I feel like it's being priced out of the markets that need it the most.

I had our walls foamed a few years back...there was never any installed and I decided to use the tax credit to fix that. Had a local contractor do it, it was the type that mixes in the gun and they just pump it into the wall cavity through a small hole...I had also gotten a quote for doing the same thing using Airkrete...wish I had gone that route now, even though it was almost double the money. I did a bunch of research ahead of time and I knew that the foam was to be expected to shrink 2% after it cured...I didn't do the math then, but after it was installed I came to realize that 2% across the width of a stud bay is actually a pretty good gap...so much for air sealing! There were some other issues too, but that was more so due to the contractors experience level with this particular product.
I decided to leave well enough alone since this place isn't that hard to heat or cool...there are easier improvements to be made in the attic anyways...still have a little rim joist to finish up too.
Anyways, Airkrete is amazing stuff...the ONLY downside to it, compared to poly foam, is the cost.

Home | Airkrete - All Green Light Weight Cement Insulation!

The most environmentally safe, the only fireproof insulation on the planet, gives off zero noxious gases and odors, and is 100% pest and mold resistant!

airkrete.com

 

[gary38532]

Airkrete is amazing stuff...the ONLY downside to it, compared to poly foam, is the cost.

I priced that yesterday to do my whole crawl space was about 3200

 

[SpaceBus]

I had our walls foamed a few years back...there was never any installed and I decided to use the tax credit to fix that. Had a local contractor do it, it was the type that mixes in the gun and they just pump it into the wall cavity through a small hole...I had also gotten a quote for doing the same thing using Airkrete...wish I had gone that route now, even though it was almost double the money. I did a bunch of research ahead of time and I knew that the foam was to be expected to shrink 2% after it cured...I didn't do the math then, but after it was installed I came to realize that 2% across the width of a stud bay is actually a pretty good gap...so much for air sealing! There were some other issues too, but that was more so due to the contractors experience level with this particular product.
I decided to leave well enough alone since this place isn't that hard to heat or cool...there are easier improvements to be made in the attic anyways...still have a little rim joist to finish up too.
Anyways, Airkrete is amazing stuff...the ONLY downside to it, compared to poly foam, is the cost.

Home | Airkrete - All Green Light Weight Cement Insulation!

The most environmentally safe, the only fireproof insulation on the planet, gives off zero noxious gases and odors, and is 100% pest and mold resistant!

airkrete.com

I like airkrete, but I had no idea there was a professional version. Most aircrete examples I've seen are DIY and somewhat inconsistent for structural uses, but definitely appropriate for insulation.

 

[Case1030]

@Case1030 the VF is a low emissions furnace and pretty efficient but it is absolutely not 86% efficient. Even the best wood stoves are only 82% and they are catalytic don’t suffer from duct losses. A noncat furnace is going to be in the 70s if you ignore duct losses. About like an nc30 wood stove. Way better than the old Clayton!

Right from lampa website. Looks like the efficiency varies around 85% like previously stated.

And there gph is lower than the catalytic stoves aswell. I don't own a VF but they seem to be way ahead of the market.

 

[Case1030]

Also duct loss, long as its within the house is still heat in the house. The problem is where you loose the heat in the house. If the btus are lost in a well insulated area it will still work it's way to the upper floors.

Now if its lost in a poorly insulated crawl space, along with air infiltration will leach it away.

 

[Highbeam]

Right from lampa website. Looks like the efficiency varies around 85% like previously stated.

And there gph is lower than the catalytic stoves aswell. I don't own a VF but they seem to be way ahead of the market.

Lots of cat stoves are under 1 gph. I’m not impressed with the low emissions as much as high efficiency. I have serious doubts that the 85% is right though. They produced actual data tables that showed mid 70s. I remember because it wasn’t any better than a good stove. 85 is in unicorn territory and I suspect it’s one of those hhv lhv tricks where the energy to boil water from the wood is subtracted. The epa chart should show the real numbers.

The VF is head and shoulders cleaner and more efficient than the other furnaces for sure. They have a great design.

 

[laynes69]

In 1979 my dad owned an insulation business. He foamed every wall in this home. Years later, the ureaformaldyhyde foam shrunk horribly allowing at least a 1/2 on each side of the wall studs. I am now removing it as I go and sealing and re-insulating. There's also no foam in the small cavities like around the windows and the foam was never filled to the top 2 feet of the walls upstairs. It makes me scared to place foam into the walls after seeing the shrinkage. That and if the mix isn't correct, it can be very detrimental to ones health.

 

[Case1030]

Lots of cat stoves are under 1 gph. I’m not impressed with the low emissions as much as high efficiency. I have serious doubts that the 85% is right though. They produced actual data tables that showed mid 70s. I remember because it wasn’t any better than a good stove. 85 is in unicorn territory and I suspect it’s one of those hhv lhv tricks where the energy to boil water from the wood is subtracted. The epa chart should show the real numbers.

The VF is head and shoulders cleaner and more efficient than the other furnaces for sure. They have a great design.

The heat exchangers on any wood furnace has a huge advantage over a stand alone wood stove cat or noncat.

It would be interesting to hear from @lampmfg in regards to this topic.

 

[Case1030]

I suspect it’s one of those hhv lhv tricks where the energy to boil water from the wood is subtracted.

Isn't that factored into stack loss?

 

[maple1]

Since we're at almost 30 pages, it may be prudent if the topic was stuck to so the OPs situation could be focused on.

 

[Case1030]

Since we're at almost 30 pages, it may be prudent if the topic was stuck to so the OPs situation could be focused on.

The whole point of calculating efficiency is to compare what the old furnace was doing. There have been many topics circled round and round on the previous pages with no direct answer.

We are trying to also figure out a heat load because OP doesnt have any electric or heating oil records.

Also remember this helps others grasp a better concept. Everyone that has posted is trying to help gary38582.

 

[gary38532]

In 1979 my dad owned an insulation business. He foamed every wall in this home. Years later, the ureaformaldyhyde foam shrunk horribly allowing at least a 1/2 on each side of the wall studs. I am now removing it as I go and sealing and re-insulating. There's also no foam in the small cavities like around the windows and the foam was never filled to the top 2 feet of the walls upstairs. It makes me scared to place foam into the walls after seeing the shrinkage. That and if the mix isn't correct, it can be very detrimental to ones health.

Maybe I should just stick to the ridged foam then?

 

[Case1030]

Maybe I should just stick to the ridged foam then?

You could use ridgid foam and around the edges use spay foam to air seal. I have done that many times with success.

 

[gary38532]

You could use ridgid foam and around the edges use spay foam to air seal. I have done that many times with success.

I was planing on doing the whole wall also

 

[gary38532]

I guess Ill Just go around all this plumbing? Im going to end up with gaps....

 

[Case1030]

I guess Ill Just go around all this plumbing? Im going to end up with gaps....
View attachment 253959

I forget what the material is called but it has a reflective mylar type of coating with a thin insulation. Its relatively cheap and really works well. It should be able to slide behind the plumbing.

Maybe another user knows what I'm talking about?

Addition edit: It helps by reflecting radiant heat back away from the walls, which is exactly what the furnace will be emitting alot of. But for the joists I'd stick with ridged foam and spray cans around the edges to air seal.

 

[brenndatomu]

Foil faced polyiso board? That's what I was thinking too...should be able to get a sheet behind there. I'm working on doing my whole basement with polyiso board...well, the one main room for now, more later...

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/insulation/foam-board-insulation/johns-manville-foil-faced-polyiso-foam-insulation-4-x-8/w-n5075/p-1444438921381-c-5779.htm

 

[garmford]

Have you checked to see if your foundation walls already have rigid insulation on the exterior? Typically you won’t see it above grade. If there is a flower bed next to the house you could dig a few shovel fulls and see. I could see insulating the the top part of the wall that’s above grade on the inside if the exterior is already insulated. I would focus on your rim boards before anything else. Your IR images prove that that’s where your greatest heat losses are.

FWIW
I also went from a Clayton to a VF100. I had the initial disappointment the first season too as I was used to the amount of heat the Clayton produced compared to the VF. But now after a few years I absolutely love my Kuuma. Mr Hawk helped me tweak mine a bit and it’s running very well. I hope once you get your insulation figured out you will also come to live your Kuuma!

 

[brenndatomu]

Have you checked to see if your foundation walls already have rigid insulation on the exterior?

That's a good point...new enough house (and poured foundation) that it should have insulation below grade...should be able to see the difference with the IR camera from the inside on a cold night...

 

[gary38532]

Have you checked to see if your foundation walls already have rigid insulation on the exterior? Typically you won’t see it above grade. If there is a flower bed next to the house you could dig a few shovel fulls and see. I could see insulating the the top part of the wall that’s above grade on the inside if the exterior is already insulated. I would focus on your rim boards before anything else. Your IR images prove that that’s where your greatest heat losses are.

FWIW
I also went from a Clayton to a VF100. I had the initial disappointment the first season too as I was used to the amount of heat the Clayton produced compared to the VF. But now after a few years I absolutely love my Kuuma. Mr Hawk helped me tweak mine a bit and it’s running very well. I hope once you get your insulation figured out you will also come to live your Kuuma!

Ok I wont worry about the walls for now then

 

[gary38532]

That's a good point...new enough house (and poured foundation) that it should have insulation below grade...should be able to see the difference with the IR camera from the inside on a cold night...

Ill check it... hard to dig out there right now... pretty frozen

 

[JRHAWK9]

FWIW
I also went from a Clayton to a VF100. I had the initial disappointment the first season too as I was used to the amount of heat the Clayton produced compared to the VF. But now after a few years I absolutely love my Kuuma. Mr Hawk helped me tweak mine a bit and it’s running very well. I hope once you get your insulation figured out you will also come to live your Kuuma!

IIRC, you are also heating a rather large volume too.

 

[garmford]

IIRC, you are also heating a rather large volume too.

You are correct. 2300 sq’ ranch(that’s just first floor), 9’ walls with some cathedral and tray ceilings. It’s only 16 years old with out any additions, unlike Gary’s.
Im only loading twice a day and my house is staying in the low to mid 70’s. Even last week with those single degree nights I stayed right around 70. I’m quite happy.