new Vapor Fire 100 with very poor heat

[Case1030]

I would say so... He should come visit my house.... Lol

It would be interesting to try a max caddy or heatpro in the same spot as your vf100. Obviously I wouldn't want to spend any more after all the hassle you have gone through.... worst case scenario would Lampa still take the furnace back?

I do believe the VF 100 is top of the line, efficiency, clean, and user friendly. Heck I'd like to have one... but end of the day if it's under sized for your house it will never work the way you expect.

Now imagine you bought a smaller furnace like the tundra/heatmax you would probably barely hit 60f.

Honestly if you have exhausted all available avenues, do yourself a favor and get a larger furnace "if" your able to work some type of return with lampa. Now "if" your not able to work somthing out and there is no way to lower heat loss in your home you only have 2 options left...

1. Supliment heat with somthing other than wood.
2. Have fun tending to a second wood stove. (In my eyes that defeats the purpose of switching from the clayton to the kumma!)

 

[maple1]

Maybe it's time for everyone posting to go back & re-read the thread to see if something new comes to mind & try to get re-focused. With 22 pages, its painful, but I just did it (with lots of skimming involved).

So from that - I don't think we did ever see any stack temps? Not sure that will lead to anything, but good to rule things in & out even 22 pages later.

My main point now though after that painful exercise - I also don't think we have seen actual plenum temps? We have seen temps of a close register. But I think actual plenum temps right above the furnace may help. Along with more temps at more register outlets. Looking at past pics, I see a finished/drywalled basement & ceiling. And in that one IR picture, I think I am seeing what looks like MAJOR heat loss out the bottom of the walls. If that is joist space, I think that is where most of the problems is, since it also looks like that is where all the duct work is - sandwiched between a finished basement ceiling and a floor. If the rim joist area didn't get insulated & air sealed properly before the basement ceiling went up, then that is where most of the heat transfer from your ductwork will be - to the cold air surrounding it in that trapped space. Which then leaks & gets pulled out & through due to poor airsealing. Even a short duct run will give up a lot of heat with bare duct work & cold air moving through.

My current thoughts. Unless I missed or misinterpreted something in looking back. Which could be possible with all that skimming.

EDIT: Would also be good to see more IR pics. With the furnace having run at max output for a while and still on a good burn. With it cold outside. Full view from all 4 sides of the house. That's a decent tool, and now that you have it, might as well use it.

 

[brenndatomu]

And in that one IR picture, I think I am seeing what looks like MAJOR heat loss out the bottom of the walls. If that is joist space, I think that is where most of the problems is, since it also looks like that is where all the duct work is - sandwiched between a finished basement ceiling and a floor. If the rim joist area didn't get insulated & air sealed properly before the basement ceiling went up, then that is where most of the heat transfer from your ductwork will be - to the cold air surrounding it in that trapped space. Which then leaks & gets pulled out & through due to poor airsealing. Even a short duct run will give up a lot of heat with bare duct work & cold air moving through.

Good post @maple1 ! Funny, I read back through most of this thread myself last night.
Agreed, rim joist is a really common problem area...and the house is about the perfect age to be right in the time where is seems like those issues were even more common...young enough that contractors were really scrimping on materials, old enough that the whole air sealing thing hadn't caught on yet.

 

[lampmfg]

I appreciate everyone helping out, trying to improve his situation. I understand concerns about the size and BTU output. The only thing I'm positive about is the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 is the most efficient indoor cordwood furnace ever proven by our EPA tests. That means when set-up correctly for the amount of wood burned, you get the maximum amount of BTU's possible. Obviously, some houses require a much larger heat load than others, but like many on here have stated in the long run, nearly everyone in those cases would be better off focusing on improving the heat loss they are experiencing. Another heating appliance would use more of the required fuel and band-aid the more significant problem.

I have previously stated that we would take back the furnace if desired. We know that it works great, and so do many of our owners on this thread with a variety of homes, set-ups, and climates.

 

[Fred61]

Interesting that you would bring this up at this time. It came to mind last night that the story has touched all aspects of heating with no final outcome. I have been reading this thread recently as a "who dunnit" mystery waiting for the perpetrator to show up. Thought about going back and reading it as maple did but I was too lazy, however I did want to mention a few things that came to mind as I was reading through it.
Was it ever established that a single firing was "normal", meaning the fire lasted about the amount of time it should have for a given amount of wood?
Another thing that caught my attention was the claim that small pieces of soot came out of the BD at one point which made me suspect there may have been a back draft. Are there any tall trees within 100 or 150 feet of the chimney?
Getting to the insulation part. If the home is as dry as described at this time of the year, there could be a couple reasons. One being air infiltration and the other being an extremely well installed vapor barrier under and around the foundation, which I doubt, with no vapor barrier in the ceiling. I experienced the latter in a house I built in 1979. All my furniture fell apart and I used to carry a quarter in my pocket to discharge myself before touching a door knob. Also don't pet the cat against the grain of the hair By adding a layer of iso board to the ceiling you would be adding insulation and vapor barrier. Although I've never done this on a ceiling, I've done several walls. The home I have now has 1.5 inch iso board under half inch drywall on most of the outside walls. Don't worry about getting extended electrical boxes. Just remove the existing boxes from the wood framing and install those "handi boxes" that anchor to the back of the drywall. Apply plastic tape to all joints in the insulation board.
Several years ago one of my brothers was having a house built (mansion in my eyes) and I happened to visit about the time the insulation was being installed. They weren't scrimping on insulation. Their choice for insulation exceeded any requirements however the installation was terrible. As he was walking me through I pointed out the poor workmanship and he took it personally and assumed I was criticizing his house and he ended the tour. After a couple years he sold the place because he couldn't heat it. There's conduction, convection, radiant and infiltration heat loss with infiltration being the worst. Just open a window and you'll agree.
For all those who have cathedral ceilings in the cold part of the country, wouldn't it be nice if we could train ourselves to live on the ceiling for 7 months of the year.

 

[Case1030]

Did OP end up installing a fresh air furnace duct? If basement is not being used/unfinished, like @maple1 mentioned above

If that is joist space, I think that is where most of the problems is, since it also looks like that is where all the duct work is - sandwiched between a finished basement ceiling and a floor. If the rim joist area didn't get insulated & air sealed properly before the basement ceiling went up, then that is where most of the heat transfer from your ductwork will be - to the

Alot of heat loss from bare metal ducts... could try insulating the plenum and ducting in the basement. Wasted heat for a space that's never used.

Also duct delivery temp are already low on The Epa furnaces as is.

 

[gary38532]

By adding a layer of iso board to the ceiling you would be adding insulation and vapor barrier.

So where do I put the iso board on top of the drywall? I dont see how I would put it under it with out taken my whole ceiling down?

 

[gary38532]

Another thing that caught my attention was the claim that small pieces of soot came out of the BD at one point which made me suspect there may have been a back draft

Idk where thats from I never had that happen? I did have bad draft but after the chimney repairs its been good.

 

[gary38532]

Thanks for everyones thoughts about the living room but that's not how it works. The living room is on a crawl space. I think the heat is coming from leaks in in there. The duct work for it runs through the basement wall into the crawl space and braches off to the far ends of the room. It's the only insulated ducts in the house. The garage next to that is on a slab and there is a room above that. I currently have all of that shut off (living room+room above garage) the door to it is also blocked with a blanket. Dale (from lamppa) and I are doing a experiment to see if it heats better with out the addition in the equation. To better pin point where the most heat loss is. Oh yeah the garage is insulated but I never heat it not now or before with the old wood furance. The VF100 Is in the center one duct goes left to heat the kitchen and bed rooms (all on the basement) the other goes right to heat the addition on the crawl space and the room above the garage. I hope this makes some kind of sense... Ill post more pictures later If it helps... I never expected this post to become so big. Thank you everyone for the overwhelming help.

 

[gary38532]

Did OP end up installing a fresh air furnace duct? If basement is not being used/unfinished, like @maple1 mentioned above




Alot of heat loss from bare metal ducts... could try insulating the plenum and ducting in the basement. Wasted heat for a space that's never used.

Also duct delivery temp are already low on The Epa furnaces as is.

I can insulate them it shouldnt be to hard

 

[maple1]

More IR pics.

 

[gary38532]

More IR pics.

Ok

 

[brenndatomu]

Well, how did you fare during the cold snap @gary38532 ?

 

[gary38532]

Well, how did you fare during the cold snap @gary38532 ?

well lets not forget I got like half the house blocked off still to start. The living room and upstairs area was as low as 45 with ice on the windows (never thought I would see that) and the kicthen and bedrooms where about 68 with the no help from the electric. I kept it 71 through out it though with support from the electric. I don't think its fair to say the vf100 was still struggling even with half the house blocked off because the only thing bettween that 45 and 71 was a blanket and god knows it was still leaking in. I think its pretty much safe to say that the living room/loft area is ruining my new stoves potential. Im just not sure what I can really do about it though. I could call and get the walls and crawlspace foamed but that still leaves the ceiling. What am I going to do about that ceiling? Oh just so everyone knows thats the only cathedral in the house the rest are just normal rooms.

 

[gary38532]

Oh yeah I was going to post more IR pics but ive been busy all week with work and what not and just haven't had a min Ill try to take more tonight!

 

[gary38532]

The living room and loft are on the other side of this... this was taken in the kitchen area

 

[Fred61]

So where do I put the iso board on top of the drywall? I dont see how I would put it under it with out taken my whole ceiling down?

Sorry Gary, I forgot to answer your question.
Yeah! Rip it down, re-arrange the blanket insulation, attach iso board and screw on the drywall. Over my building career I done more difficult jobs but I'll admit I had the cahones to attempt anything. Did the same thing in an office that measured 19 feet to the peak and installed 5/8 in fire rated drywall.
Doing it will give you a good look at the present insulation or lack thereof. I couldn't believe what I uncovered when I did my walls. This house was built for electric heat and I found some cavities with 15 to 20 inches of of
bare plywood sheathing exposed.
Gather up some of your friends and your brother-in-law, buy a case of beer and go. Don't forget the panel jack.

Also check the ventilation cavity.

 

[gary38532]

Sorry Gary, I forgot to answer your question.
Yeah! Rip it down, re-arrange the blanket insulation, attach iso board and screw on the drywall. Over my building career I done more difficult jobs but I'll admit I had the cahones to attempt anything. Did the same thing in an office that measured 19 feet to the peak and installed 5/8 in fire rated drywall.
Doing it will give you a good look at the present insulation or lack thereof. I couldn't believe what I uncovered when I did my walls. This house was built for electric heat and I found some cavities with 15 to 20 inches of of
bare plywood sheathing exposed.
Gather up some of your friends and your brother-in-law, buy a case of beer and go. Don't forget the panel jack.

Also check the ventilation cavity.

yeah that sucks though the ceiling in the living room is only like 5 years old when I moved in it had to be taken down it was falling apart from the house not being lived in... I would hate to destroy it. I did see the insulation behind it there was no gaps like that but its very thin. The guys that where doing the job said it wouldnt be a problem ... little did I know...

 

[gary38532]

Maybe I'll try just doing the walls and crawlspace and see if I can get away with it...

 

[gary38532]

Thats the ceiling like 4k worth to get it put up... Ill never get my money back that's the problem

 

[Woodman1]

This is crazy. Your house looks good the drywall looks nice. No way in the world I would tear that down and open up all that mess. What on earth changed in your house from the time you had your old wood furnace to the Kuma?

 

[gary38532]

This is crazy. Your house looks good the drywall looks nice. No way in the world I would tear that down and open up all that mess. What on earth changed in your house from the time you had your old wood furnace to the Kuma?

idk but its like night and day man

 

[gary38532]

This is Front door... I took these quick its bad outside

 

[gary38532]

small bedroom window

 

[gary38532]

back of the house next to the new chimney that door use to go to a porch... the VF100 is under that door