Killing our planet with plastics

[sportbikerider78]

BTW... I hate hearing any talk of “banning” anything. It’s not American. Live free or die, eh?

We should never be talking about “banning” various products or solutions, but incentivizing the communally-responsible choices. Bush should not have “banned” incandescent light bulbs, he should have insisted the laws were written to just incentivize more responsible choices. Don’t you dare ban my 6.4 liter sedan, just make it financially painful enough to drive a low-MPG car, that the masses choose the more socially-responsible path. People would quickly go back to Tupperware, or washing and re-using their Zip-Lok baggies (my grandmother used to do this), if those baggies were 6x their current price. But, they’d still be there, for those few cases when you really need a disposable solution.

This allows us our freedoms, to choose what is right for us, while effecting the mass changes that are often needed. You just need to make the less socially-desirable solutions a little painful.

Your view is incredibly elitist. It that world, only the rich can afford a fun to drive car or plastic ziploks.
You are even talking about "the masses" as if that does not include you.

 

[Ashful]

Your view is incredibly elitist. It that world, only the rich can afford a fun to drive car or plastic ziploks.
You are even talking about "the masses" as if that does not include you.

Not at all. I am the masses, when it comes to sport bikes, you are the masses when it comes to my hobbies. Everyone is “the masses”, when it comes to the things for which they do not have a particular passion.

This is already happening, BTW. There is a “gas guzzler” tax levied against Dodge Hellcats and Jeep Trackhawks. I know the demographics of the Hellcat owners very well, I hang with that crowd, they are blue collar. If they’re elitist, it is only about their ride.

The point is, you are not banning those things for which someone does have a passion, but are gently steering the rest away from those things done out of habit or path of least resistance. Incandescent light bulbs could be a good example, it took some prodding to move most toward LEDs.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Screw the plastic bags. We should ban polyester clothing! [emoji14]

It all comes down to one thing: too many effing people. If you want to regulate something, that is the solution to all problems. Incentivize population stabilization, or reduction. China actually set the bar for this, more than 30 years ago, but this was aided by their more socialist economics.

I have been saying this for a long time. As the population goes up, the quality of life will go down.Were fortunate(so far) that we are not yet packed in shoulder to shoulder like china and india and many overpopulated nations. Humans foul their own nest ,more often than not. 300 million is a good place to stop. Europe is finding out now the effects of instant large population increases and it dont look good for them.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

This allows us our freedoms, to choose what is right for us, while effecting the mass changes that are often needed. You just need to make the less socially-desirable solutions a little painful.

This works very well. Its similar to the tariffs place on foreign goods. Its not about collecting taxes or tariffs. Its about gently persuading the public to buy local made products or bring back domestic production of those products. Were not "banning" imported goods just making them a little more expensive.

 

[Sodbuster]

When we talk about banning something as incredibly useful as a plastic bag. Let's have some evidence to bring the table before we just start banning stuff and hoping we see a change in the environment.

If the US isn't dumping plastic in the ocean, that is a good thing. If the plastic is getting into our rivers/groundwater and making its way to the ocean, clearly that's an issue. Let's look at how that is happening and what we can do to stop it, rather than just banning random items. For all we know, other plastic items are a much bigger issue then bags.
Since it is ending up in human waste, it must be in the drinking water. Time to take a look at how they filter that water for the masses.

Environmentalists lose all credibility when they just yell "ban". Bring evidence of an issue and the root cause of that issue so we can make logical decisions not emotional responses.

Just for the record, I'm only talking about those super cheap, once use and they are crap, grocery bags, not any other type of bag, like zip locks, garbage bags, or lawn and leaf bags. They are not replaceable in my mind.

 

[Ashful]

Just for the record, I'm only talking about those super cheap, once use and they are crap, grocery bags, not any other type of bag, like zip locks, garbage bags, or lawn and leaf bags. They are not replaceable in my mind.

Of course, we switched from paper to plastic for environmental reasons, or so I’m told. I do miss those heavy paper bags, they had a million uses.

In some countries, consumers take their own bags or bins to the store with them, to be loaded and re-used. I remember everyone carting their “nesting totes”, big plastic tubs, into the grocery store with them in Germany in the 1990’s. There, you can get disposable bags, but you’d pay something like $2 each for them. Again, not banned, just incentivized.

I see people taking their own cloth bags to the store here, but it’s still just the Subaru-driving Birkenstock-wearing granola folks, at least in this neck of the woods. They have the right idea, but it hasn’t caught on, and likely never will around here, without some financial incentive to coerce people out of their current patterns.

 

[Sodbuster]

Of course, we switched from paper to plastic for environmental reasons, or so I’m told. I do miss those heavy paper bags, they had a million uses.

In some countries, consumers take their own bags or bins to the store with them, to be loaded and re-used. I remember everyone carting their “nesting totes”, big plastic tubs, into the grocery store with them in Germany in the 1990’s. There, you can get disposable bags, but you’d pay something like $2 each for them. Again, not banned, just incentivized.

I see people taking their own cloth bags to the store here, but it’s still just the Subaru-driving Birkenstock-wearing granola folks, at least in this neck of the woods. They have the right idea, but it hasn’t caught on, and likely never will around here, without some financial incentive to coerce people out of their current patterns.

Our Meijer still offers them at the self check outs, double them up and see how much I can wedge into one bag, then those bags get used to put the recyclables into and the process starts all over again.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Not at all. I am the masses, when it comes to sport bikes, you are the masses when it comes to my hobbies. Everyone is “the masses”, when it comes to the things for which they do not have a particular passion.

This is already happening, BTW. There is a “gas guzzler” tax levied against Dodge Hellcats and Jeep Trackhawks. I know the demographics of the Hellcat owners very well, I hang with that crowd, they are blue collar. If they’re elitist, it is only about their ride.

The point is, you are not banning those things for which someone does have a passion, but are gently steering the rest away from those things done out of habit or path of least resistance. Incandescent light bulbs could be a good example, it took some prodding to move most toward LEDs.

I'm pretty sure the $60k+ price tag is what steers most away from a 2dr sports car. A gas tax is a drop in the bucket to feed more bureaucrats.
If most are going to spend that much on a vehicle, it has to haul the kiddos too.

 

[Ashful]

I'm pretty sure the $60k+ price tag is what steers most away from a 2dr sports car. A gas tax is a drop in the bucket to feed more bureaucrats.
If most are going to spend that much on a vehicle, it has to haul the kiddos too.

Umm... 2 doors? Where would you get that idea? The Hellcat is available in 2 or 4 door configurations, the Trackhawk is an SUV. Both are fully LATCH system-compliant.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I don't

Umm... 2 doors? Where would you get that idea? The Hellcat is available in 2 or 4 door configurations, the Trackhawk is an SUV. Both are fully LATCH system-compliant.

View attachment 231712 View attachment 231713

I don't follow Chrysler products...I thought it was the Challenger not the Charger.
Regardless...most guys aren't dropping 60k on a car.

Toys are great..but taxing them more than other rides is silly and pointless. Especially in the case you just made. It defeats the point of living in a country where you can make decisions for yourself based on what you can afford. A gas tax does little to nothing to deter you, if you're already dropping that kind of coin on a car.

 

[begreen]

Progress
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/26/660843753/european-parliament-approves-ban-on-single-use-plastics

 

[begreen]

In some countries, consumers take their own bags or bins to the store with them, to be loaded and re-used. I remember everyone carting their “nesting totes”, big plastic tubs, into the grocery store with them in Germany in the 1990’s. There, you can get disposable bags, but you’d pay something like $2 each for them. Again, not banned, just incentivized.

Some countries like CA, OR and WA? There are no plastic grocery bags at our local grocery store or Trader Joes. No big deal. We have carried multiple cloth bags in our car for years. No big deal.

 

[Ashful]

Some countries like CA, OR and WA? There are no plastic grocery bags at our local grocery store or Trader Joes. No big deal. We have carried multiple cloth bags in our car for years. No big deal.

Yeah, I knew about Trader Joe’s, and figured the west coast would be quicker to adopt. I wasn’t aware your mainstream grocery stores didn’t have bags anymore, though.

Around here, it’s mostly the Whole Foods crowd, that you see going that route. For me, the biggest hurtle would be keeping a set of bags in each car, so I had them with me when the wife called and asked me to swing by the grocery store, I’m happier just recycling the plastic bags.

 

[Sodbuster]

Yeah, I knew about Trader Joe’s, and figured the west coast would be quicker to adopt. I wasn’t aware your mainstream grocery stores didn’t have bags anymore, though.

Around here, it’s mostly the Whole Foods crowd, that you see going that route. For me, the biggest hurtle would be keeping a set of bags in each car, so I had them with me when the wife called and asked me to swing by the grocery store, I’m happier just recycling the plastic bags.

If they can make foam shipping pellets that disintegrate in water, why not plastic shopping bags that break down, say within 48 hours into something innocuous.

 

[Ashful]

If they can make foam shipping pellets that disintegrate in water, why not plastic shopping bags that break down, say within 48 hours into something innocuous.

But then wouldn’t we just have to change this thread to “Killing our planet with something innocuous”, in fifteen years?

This is an old perennial, but you can’t ignore the mention of “plastic bags” at 3:40, and again at 5:30.

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[begreen]

But then wouldn’t we just have to change this thread to “Killing our planet with something innocuous”, in fifteen years?

No,in spite of that attitude and cynicism humanity is progressing and learning. There are some smart solutions available and new ones being created that don't use petroleum. These could be developing much quicker if the oil industry profits weren't what leads this country by the nose.

A plastic bag that degraded in 48 hrs would not be practical. It would have a poor shelflife. But a bag that degrades in 6 months or a year is practical and available in the US under the BioBag brand. It's made with a US developed formula, but unfortunately the bio-plastic is only made in Europe where there is stronger market demand, which means it needs to be shipped back here.

 

[Ashful]

No,in spite of that attitude and cynicism humanity is progressing and learning.

Begreen, you are right that my post was cynical, but you misinterpreted the direction I was leaning. Many of our current problems derive from things that prior generations called “innocuous”. Short-sightedness is a perpetual problem.

 

[begreen]

Hindsightedness is sometimes even worse. We that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

As large as the problem already is, and growing rapidly,its important looking at solutions to at least begin ASAP . Seems to be a lackluster attitude to this problem all around. Other countries included.

 

[begreen]

With millions of tons already coating the planet. It may already be too late for many. Who knows what complications will arise as microplastics infiltrate out blood streams. God bless the kids inheriting this mess.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesal...turning-up-everywhere-even-in-human-excrement

 

[Ashful]

With millions of tons already coating the planet. It may already be too late for many. Who knows what complications will arise as microplastics infiltrate out blood streams. God bless the kids inheriting this mess.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesal...turning-up-everywhere-even-in-human-excrement

The author is jumping to two pretty significant and unproven conclusions:

1. That this is all new, and that you didn’t get to your ripe old age with the same plastics already in you. After all, plastic packaging of food isn’t exactly something new.

2. That this is somehow catastrophically bad for all of us. It doesn’t appear good on the surface, but again, the effects are unknown today.

This definitely warrants concern and study, but the environmentalists and media have a decades-long history of jumping to the worst possible conclusions every time new evidence is discovered, and they are more often wrong than right.

 

[begreen]

There is some background info that the author may have assumed the reader already knows. That is recent tests of marketed waters, including high end filtered bottled waters are showing microplastics floating in them. These microplastics break down into tinier and tinier pieces, they don't go away. This is not necessarily from the packaging and yes it is relatively new. We've only been manufacturing some of these products for a generation or two. Micro and nanoplastics are increasingly showing up in quantities in water supplies and rivers, seafood and even table sea salt. And yet we continue to dump millions of tons more into the waters at an astounding rate.

Seafood consumption is one entry point for humans. How bad is this for us? These plastics being petroleum based have an affinity for toxins which can bind easily to them. Ad hominem attacks get us nowhere. Dissing environmentalists, tree huggers, Subaru owners, etc. may be a convenient scapegoat, but it will not protect families at risk. It was environmentalists that finally pointed out and got action on the large scale effects of PCBs, etc. Unfortunately a lot of people died some horrible deaths prior to finally getting action.

There are numerous old and new studies on this topic and yes, the medical community is becoming increasingly concerned. At this point we can not directly tell the net effect on humans, it may take years for issues to develop. Cancer and liver issues don't happen overnight. However, we can observe the effects on lower life forms and extrapolate some reasonable conclusions. A simple google search will bring up many scientific, published papers on the research. Here are a few.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(17)30121-3/fulltext
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13181-018-0661-9
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749114002425
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es302332w

 

[Ashful]

Dissing environmentalists, tree huggers, Subaru owners, etc. may be a convenient scapegoat, but it will not protect families at risk.

Good info. I didn’t disrespect any Subaru owners. In fact, I was complimenting some for going beyond what the rest of us are willing to do, WRT this particular issue.

 

[begreen]

We're all in this plastic soup now. There is no escaping it. The issues know no age, gender or ethnicity, though mother's milk may be an early warning sign. The quantity spread around the planet is too high. Why anyone would want to continually chit in their own bed is beyond me. But humans do it all the time.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Ashful said: ↑
I see people taking their own cloth bags to the store here, but it’s still just the Subaru-driving Birkenstock-wearing granola folks, at least in this neck of the woods.

Sorry if I took it wrong, it didn't sound like a compliment. We're all in this plastic soup now. There is no escaping it. The quantity spread around the planet is too high. Why anyone would want to continually chit in their own bed is beyond me. But humans do it all the time.

I read it as a description of a group of people who generally care more about the environment and are pro active about it as opposed to the general population who are not. I can see it as a compliment. Just my 2c.