Isle Royale Smoking... a lot

[Kool_hand_Looke]

To be a fair price comparison note the install was connecting to an existing chimney.

So another $2500 to punch a few holes? To turn around and have it not work?

I'd be on them like a spider monkey.

 

[begreen]

Agreed, there is no excuse for the poor workmanship. Point being, 27 ft of stainless class A, plus a tee, thimble and cap is not cheap.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

Agreed, there is no excuse for the poor workmanship. Point being, 27 ft of stainless class A, plus a tee, thimble and cap is not cheap.

I'd assume, more that half of that $6500 was the stove. I paid $2500-$2600 for the exact stove. But ceramic enamel. Which I was quoted for $3700 at another store. Some of these dealers a ripping people off.

 

[js156]

I'd assume, more that half of that $6500 was the stove. I paid $2500-$2600 for the exact stove. But ceramic enamel. Which I was quoted for $3700 at another store. Some of these dealers a ripping people off.

Like me. I did pay more for the chimney then the stove. I think it was 3100 for the stove and 3300 for the chimney; which I should have had someone else do. Well, it would have been good to buy the whole thing somewhere else.
As far as being a spider monkey, I have disputed the charges with the credit card co. We'll see.

 

[js156]

Wish I lived closer. I would tighten up those glass clips a little and snug up the door. Will the installer at least fix the T support so that it is properly supporting the Tee?

When you say the stove has overfired, what are the indications of this? Has the stove warped? I would also be happy to put in a key damper in the flue pipe.

Thank you for saying this. I don't know if there are indications of an over fire or not. The front door on the right closes flush with the door beside it at the top. So the architectural details are flat, or smooth, between the two doors. But at the bottom the door on the right is out about 1/4" preventing it from being flat, or smooth, to the door on the left.
My guess is it is manufactured this way for tension but I don't know this for sure nor have I compared it to the same stove elsewhere. If anyone would like to see if there's is the same way I would greatly appreciate it.
I did tighten the allen screws around the glass and I do think that was very helpful in lowering the stove temps from 900+ to 800+ as that glass was ready to fall out.
I am hesitant to install the damper, at this time, because I don't know where this will go and I don't want to there to be a damper there to blame for anything.
Hopefully this will be worked out next season!

 

[js156]

I've had an Isle Royale for some 5 years and found it to be a great stove. I have a large house and have the IR and 3 other stoves (a Hearthstone Heritage, a VC Encore and a VC Aspen). Each stove has its own quirks, each flue it's own characteristics. But one thing I know for sure, when I start an IR fire if I don't have the primary all the way pushed in and the secondary all the way to the left--maximum open for both--I can get some serious back puffing into the room. (Yes, through the gaskets and everywhere else.) The fact that the OP starts his fire with both vents shut and the right door open and that he can do this w/o back puffing means to me that there is one hell of a draft or much more likely a leak. My first bet, as was suggested earlier, is the ash pan door--either it is not securely closed or it is not sealed tight. (On this stove it is very easy to think you have closed the ash pan door securely when you really haven't.) Also, if the glass clips are loose this is another installation problem. They should be tight so that the glass seals tightly on its gasket.

Starting a smokeless fire is an art form and starting one with a double 90 flue is even more so. I always crack a window when starting any of my stoves and after about 5 minutes I close the window and with the IR about 10 or 15 minutes later close the startup vent (pull it all the way out). I always fill the firebox with the initial load which lasts quite a while, especially with the secondary (the slide) at medium or less. When it comes time to reload remember that this stove is meant to be reloaded from the TOP, not the front. Push the afterburner lever back, pull the startup control out (optional) and wait 30 sec to a minute to let the smoke around the afterburner get sucked up. Lift the top up, reload, close the top, pull the afterburner back, close the startup vent (pull out). It goes w/o saying you should be burning dry, well seasoned wood.

I have a 30' chimney and have never had an over or under draft problem with this stove. The only back puffing I've ever had is if I forget to open the vents fully when starting a fire. It's a great stove, little maintenance, and puts out a lot of heat. My suggestion is to bite the bullet and find a different (and well recommended) Quad dealer. Pay him the $200 or so service charge and let him check out the whole setup and start a fire.

I'm glad to hear it is a great stove. Some will get tired of reading this but I did have at least the secondary all the way open. The installer told me not to use the primary because people have a tendency to forget to close it. So, he said, leave the door open a little and when I see the fire begin to take then close the door.
A service person did come out once to replace the ash pan door gasket with a larger diameter gasket. Between him changing that and myself tightening the glass up, it did help. Thanks you for these suggestions though. And in the future I will also open a window. But I would bet a half a gallon of milk that the smoke was due to the wind and low chimney.

One thing I did notice with this stove that surprises me. When I start a fire I can close the secondary, slide it to the right, and I can probably put the fire out. This happened for the first time after ash pan door gasket was changed and the glass was tightened. I was very optimistic. But if the fire is going strong, with hot ashes too, and I close the secondary, from the mid way point, nothing happens. I can't keep it lower than 800+ (with everything as closed as I can get it).
It is strange to me that I can, and have, put a "cold" fire out but I can't dim a hot one.
To me it is as if a weak fire doesn't have the power to draw air in but through the secondary and I can control it. But a more powerful fire is getting air elsewhere and when I close it, to the right, it just has another source established. I don't "know" this, it's just what I guess.
So, I did go around the doors, with an incense stick with the fire going as well as where I thought the seams were. Naturally it is hard in the back, but it did pull particularly strong where the cut out is for the outside air intake, but otherwise I did not see it too much. It pulled some where the sides meet the bottom and front and a bit around the doors but I didn't think it was a lot. It pulled when it was close but not at all from say an inch. Thank you.

 

[jatoxico]

To me it is as if a weak fire doesn't have the power to draw air in but through the secondary and I can control it. But a more powerful fire is getting air elsewhere and when I close it, to the right, it just has another source established. I don't "know" this, it's just what I guess.

That's pretty close to the way I understand it. A weaker draft, which is normal when everything is cold, does not have the "power" to draw air in through the secondaries so when you shut the primary you can control the air more easily. Once things get heated the draft gets strong the "engine" of the system pulls air hard, pulling the remaining air from the primaries and the secondaries which you typically cannot control (modern stoves can never be fully "turned off").

This is why it seems your system is having both a weak draft (at start up and cool reloads) and overdraft after its hot leading to possible overfire. Takes a little time to get to used to the nuances.

You deserve better from you installer for the poor workmanship but the truth is what you are experiencing isn't all that uncommon. A lot of installers throw the stove in and they're gone. Then it's up to the homeowner to figure it out. If it wasn't the case this forum might not exist. But thankfully it does, stick with it and you'll figure out what you need to do to get it right. Oh and did I say it's worth the effort?

 

[begreen]

I'm not going to instruct because I haven't owned this stove (almost did, it was on my very short list). But I think there is some confusion on the air controls and what they do. There is no secondary air control that I know of, only a primary air control. Normally with a tube stove when you close off the primary air the suction of the draft then pulls the air through the secondary manifolds. It is not uncommon for this to increase secondary burn as described and for the stove temp to increase, particularly when one normally has very strong draft due to a tall chimney.

 

[MattFoley772]

Thank you for saying this. I don't know if there are indications of an over fire or not. The front door on the right closes flush with the door beside it at the top. So the architectural details are flat, or smooth, between the two doors. But at the bottom the door on the right is out about 1/4" preventing it from being flat, or smooth, to the door on the left.
My guess is it is manufactured this way for tension but I don't know this for sure nor have I compared it to the same stove elsewhere. If anyone would like to see if there's is the same way I would greatly appreciate it.
I did tighten the allen screws around the glass and I do think that was very helpful in lowering the stove temps from 900+ to 800+ as that glass was ready to fall out.
I am hesitant to install the damper, at this time, because I don't know where this will go and I don't want to there to be a damper there to blame for anything.
Hopefully this will be worked out next season!

I don't understand your description of the doors. At this point all I can tell you is to do a dollar bill test on all gaskets. If a door is warped the test will fail there. If your stove is "overfiring" it's getting too much air by definition. Either you're giving it too much air (solution is obvious: turn it down) or gaskets leak (solution is obvious) or wind is increasing draft (solution raise chimney and install pipe damper) or all the above. If your gaskets are tight and air is on low and it still "overfires" then air is getting in there somewhere it should not, therefore it's a defective stove.

I also don't know how you define "primary" and "secondary" air. The pull knob on the right is startup air and should be closed after 15 minutes. The left to right control in the center is the main air control and should be full left on startup. This is in the manual.

You didn't answer my question about why you said it was overfired.

 

[MattFoley772]

I don't understand your description of the doors. At this point all I can tell you is to do a dollar bill test on all gaskets. If a door is warped the test will fail there. If your stove is "overfiring" it's getting too much air by definition. Either you're giving it too much air (solution is obvious: turn it down) or gaskets leak (solution is obvious) or wind is increasing draft (solution raise chimney and install pipe damper) or all the above. If your gaskets are tight and air is on low and it still "overfires" then air is getting in there somewhere it should not, therefore it's a defective stove.

I also don't know how you define "primary" and "secondary" air. The pull knob on the right is startup air and should be closed after 15 minutes. The left to right control in the center is the main air control and should be full left on startup. This is in the manual.

You didn't answer my question about why you said it was overfired.

Oh, and why are you so determined not to use a damper? I and others have explained why you should get one. The damper is like an emergency brake and will drastically reduce your burn rate no matter what else is wrong. There is absolutely no reason not to get one. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need one; if so I will counter that you shouldn't need a fire extinguisher, either.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

Oh, and why are you so determined not to use a damper? I and others have explained why you should get one. The damper is like an emergency brake and will drastically reduce your burn rate no matter what else is wrong. There is absolutely no reason not to get one. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need one; if so I will counter that you shouldn't need a fire extinguisher, either.

I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.

 

[jatoxico]

I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.

So some guy told you no damper on your set up and that's worth confusing the issue? Sorry but if this particular install needs a damper it should get one.

 

[js156]

I'm not going to instruct because I haven't owned this stove (almost did, it was on my very short list). But I think there is some confusion on the air controls and what they do. There is no secondary air control that I know of, only a primary air control. Normally with a tube stove when you close off the primary air the suction of the draft then pulls the air through the secondary manifolds. It is not uncommon for this to increase secondary burn as described and for the stove temp to increase, particularly when one normally has very strong draft due to a tall chimney.

I would think this is good news. I do have a primary air intake in the back that I push and pull to open and close when I start the fire and then a slide in the front, that I believe is referred to as the secondary to control the air intake once the fire gets established. Thanks.

I don't want to change this but I will add this note: I now know that I had the primary and the secondary wrong. The primary is the slide control. I previously thought that the slide control was the secondary.
The stove has a start up knob and a primary slide. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.

This guy may need one. Idk. I'm not an installer. But they (union journeyman sheetmetal workers and tenors...who have some fireplace master certificate) told me no. Don't run a damper. I'm getting 11+ hours on loads of oak, hedge and BL with sustained 450-550 for 9+. I'll take that. Better than my last stove that had a 30 pound damper and I was lucky to get 8 hours with twice the wood.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

I would think this is good news. I do have a primary air intake in the back that I push and pull to open and close when I start the fire and then a slide in the front, that I believe is referred to as the secondary to control the air intake once the fire gets established. Thanks.

The knob you push in is your start up air. The lever under the ash lip...is your primary.

 

[js156]

I don't understand your description of the doors. At this point all I can tell you is to do a dollar bill test on all gaskets. If a door is warped the test will fail there. If your stove is "overfiring" it's getting too much air by definition. Either you're giving it too much air (solution is obvious: turn it down) or gaskets leak (solution is obvious) or wind is increasing draft (solution raise chimney and install pipe damper) or all the above. If your gaskets are tight and air is on low and it still "overfires" then air is getting in there somewhere it should not, therefore it's a defective stove.

I also don't know how you define "primary" and "secondary" air. The pull knob on the right is startup air and should be closed after 15 minutes. The left to right control in the center is the main air control and should be full left on startup. This is in the manual.

You didn't answer my question about why you said it was overfired.

First things first I want to answer your question. I thought it was overfired by the mere fact that was reaching 909 degrees +/-.
The manual says that if there is evidence of overfiring then my warranty is void. If the stove doesn't have, or wouldn't get, deterioration of its interior components (from maybe five of these burns before I knew what was going on) then that is good news.
The dollar bill test fails everywhere. The mechanic that came out said believing that test was stupid. (I am not, I just couldn't get him to address it)
Lastly, I made a mistake in calling the primary the secondary. From now on, I will call the slide control what it is, the primary. Thank you.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

First things first I want to answer your question. I thought it was overfired by the mere fact that was reaching 909 degrees +/-.
The manual says that if there is evidence of overfiring then my warranty is void. If the stove doesn't have, or wouldn't get, deterioration of its interior components (from maybe five of these burns before I knew what was going on) then that is good news.
The dollar bill test fails everywhere. The mechanic that came out said believing that test was stupid. (I am not, I just couldn't get him to address it)
Lastly, I made a mistake in calling the primary the secondary. From now on, I will call the slide control what it is, the primary. Thank you.

Lol. I was just giving a reference. There's PLENRTY of people on here who will overreact about that and be like "I NOT KNOW WHAT THAT MEAN!?!?!?!?!?!?" and have a nervous breakdown.

I "corrected" that...only so you didn't get yelled at later. Lol.

 

[js156]

I don't have expertise on a damper but if it is determined that I need one then I need one. Kobeman (page one) mentioned having that along with a manometer. It seems scientific enough. Perhaps that and a taller chimney will fix my issues for me. Plus maybe new gaskets around the doors. Now I just need the installers to finish their job.
Once I touch it, it is my job and my liability should anything go wrong and I do not want to do that.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

I think the start up air...you're only supposed to use for a few minutes and on reloads. Which, again I'm running your stove and just as new. On reloads I don't even use the start up air.

Check your ash pan door. Theres a little nut and tab. When my installers came it was lose.

 

[js156]

I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.

The service guy who came out to replace the ash pan gasket basically said the same thing. He said he doesn't like them and that they are for leaky, overfired stoves that have wavy tops. I would prefer to only need the primary but if I need one I need one.

 

[begreen]

This guy may need one. Idk. I'm not an installer. But they (union journeyman sheetmetal workers and tenors...who have some fireplace master certificate) told me no. Don't run a damper. I'm getting 11+ hours on loads of oak, hedge and BL with sustained 450-550 for 9+. I'll take that. Better than my last stove that had a 30 pound damper and I was lucky to get 8 hours with twice the wood.

Normally the stove would not need a damper, but every installation is unique. The home, flue length, outdoor weather, stove and flue location all affect stove operation. If the installation is within normal parameters the stove may perform exactly as advertised when burning good wood. But start pushing on some of these factors with high wind gusts, poor flue location, tall chimney, poor dealer prep and the stove may not behave entirely as predicted. Add a new user and this can be a hard learning experience. A pipe damper will increase control and will allow the flue to be increased to its proper height. When draft is very strong there are really only a few solutions. Restricting it with a key damper is one of the simplest.

js156, you may find this article helpful.
http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

 

[begreen]

The service guy who came out to replace the ash pan gasket basically said the same thing. He said he doesn't like them and that they are for leaky, overfired stoves that have wavy tops. I would prefer to only need the primary but if I need one I need one.

Is this the same guy that didn't know how to properly tighten the glass screws?

 

[Kobeman]

Put a Damper In, If you don't need it than great, but the first time you get hellish winds and she's sucking like a hoover, you will be thankful when you can just turn it a bit to simmer her down. When I first got mine I thought it was burning too quick, had the tech out, he found nothing wrong with the stove and said my chimney was just too damn good. My draft measurements confirm this. I can tell what the temperature is doing outside by where my key damper is set. Warms up i dont have to turn it so much. I use the manometer to confirm my settings but I am learning how to set it by looking at the fire.

 

[Kobeman]

I'll post how I run mine in case anyone cares, Disclaimer, this is how I run MY setup, yours will certainly vary. Cold start, slide to the left, startup knob pushed in, key damper open full, lay in a layer of wood, 1/4 super cedar light it and fill the box up full, sweep up my mess and close doors. 5 minutes or so box is full of rolling fire, pull startup knob fully out. Stovetop reaching 300 or so flue reaching 700, close key 1/8 to keep flue in check. Stove top reaching or slightly over 500 , move slide to right 1/2 way (i put lil paint tics on ash lip so I know at a glance where it is at) Stovetop 550ish close slide to 3/4 closed turn on blower, flue will be 800-900. Stovetop 575 -600 with blower going, move slide full right closed. Flue temp will start to fall, recheck flue 15 mins or so later and close key damper a titch more to bring flue temp down to around 650-700. I've found If I close key to far and flue temp gets below 600 my secondaries start to lack so I bump the key open a titch more. Temperatures are with a condar stovetop set slightly to the right of center of griddle and a condar probe about 18" up, They are close enough readings for me Once I get this all set I can check the draft and it is usualy .04-.06 which is what the book calls for and I feel happy I'm right on,.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

I'll post how I run mine in case anyone cares, Disclaimer, this is how I run MY setup, yours will certainly vary. Cold start, slide to the left, startup knob pushed in, key damper open full, lay in a layer of wood, 1/4 super cedar light it and fill the box up full, sweep up my mess and close doors. 5 minutes or so box is full of rolling fire, pull startup knob fully out. Stovetop reaching 300 or so flue reaching 700, close key 1/8 to keep flue in check. Stove top reaching or slightly over 500 , move slide to right 1/2 way (i put lil paint tics on ash lip so I know at a glance where it is at) Stovetop 550ish close slide to 3/4 closed turn on blower, flue will be 800-900. Stovetop 575 -600 with blower going, move slide full right closed. Flue temp will start to fall, recheck flue 15 mins or so later and close key damper a titch more to bring flue temp down to around 650-700. I've found If I close key to far and flue temp gets below 600 my secondaries start to lack so I bump the key open a titch more. Temperatures are with a condar stovetop set slightly to the right of center of griddle and a condar probe about 18" up, They are close enough readings for me Once I get this all set I can check the draft and it is usualy .04-.06 which is what the book calls for and I feel happy I'm right on,.

I don't have the Isle Royale, but I just want to say that I really appreciate how people here take the time and effort to walk us newbies step by step through start up procedures in order to help us fix problems we're having. That's why this forum is number one on my reading list each and every time I sit at a computer, whether I'm at home or at work!