Isle Royale Smoking... a lot

[Warm_in_NH]

I agree that its better to have the support under the T, but some chimney systems allow the T to be supported from above for a short distance. This set-up is probably OK, assuming that support is attached into more than foam board.

Interesting to learn. My initial thought was that it was like wearing your under ware on the outside when I saw it done that way.
But mine and his are clearly different manufacturers and as I've only done one, mine, I wasn't aware of one that would look so similar but be able to perform properly while looking so counter intuitive.

I actually feel a lot better about the that pic w the bracket posted by js now.

 

[js156]

In the 4th pic, is it just me or is the piece coming out of the wall on a downward slope?
I'm also curious what's supporting the pipe, since the T-support top side isn't visible.
You need more Class A from the looks of that last pic.

I will get you a picture of the top of the t support. After seeing the picture from Warm In NH I don't know what they were thinking. If I had to guess I will see some screws here and there. We will see.
How does Quadra Fire approve their distributors? Every time I call Quad or send an email I get these one sentence replies to contact my dealer. Well, you can see what kind of dealer I have. Perhaps now everyone on this board can understand my lousy predicament.

 

[js156]

I agree that its better to have the support under the T, but some chimney systems allow the T to be supported from above for a short distance. This set-up is probably OK, assuming that support is attached into more than foam board.

webby, Do you know why it wouldn't be under? The wall construction is obviously the same below it as it is above it. They did not go high enough to reach the floor joists above. Thank you

 

[webby3650]

It gets crowded around the T. In this instance I'm not sure why they did it this way. I will usually add a 6" piece below the T so there is more room for the support and its clamp. This way it's still supported from below.

 

[northwinds]

Most stove manufacturers with dealer networks rely upon their dealers to communicate with the customer. I'm guessing that's why Quad isn't responding to-date.

When I bought my stove and when I re-installed my stove in a different house, the Quad dealer came out beforehand for a site review so it could be determined where best to put the stove and where the chimney should go. That service was provided for free once the dealer knew we were serious about buying the stove. In both cases, they made a strong recommendation for an interior chimney for better performance, which we agreed to even though it meant giving up some interior space.

 

[ArsenalDon]

looks eerily similar to my setup which we have had no problems with per se.

I will try to post a similar set of pics.

 

[begreen]

Hello BeGreen. That side of our house faces North West. In the winter, that is usually the side that the wind blows against. Yeah, snow drifts and all are fed from that direction. Thanks for asking.

Based on the wind direction, adjacent roofs and the images I am reminded of one of John Gulland's warnings.

Read up here and see if you think this applies. http://www.woodheat.org/wind-chimney.html

PS: that T bracket has to be made correct. It is not supporting the T. You have firm ground for calling the installer on this error.

 

[js156]

Based on the wind direction, adjacent roofs and the images I am reminded of one of John Gulland's warnings.
View attachment 129994
Read up here and see if you think this applies. http://www.woodheat.org/wind-chimney.html

PS: that T bracket has to be made correct. It is not supporting the T. You have firm ground for calling the installer on this error.

Okay. So I have over firing, down drafting and a chimney that can fall away from my house. I have finally laughed at my situation.

 

[northwinds]

If I were you, I'd bet your dealer a $100 that they couldn't start a normal size fire and keep it in a cruising range of 550-700. If they can't do it, they know
they have a problem and owe you $100. If they can do it, you can learn from watching how it's done and call it a valuable lesson for $100. While they're out there, they can check the workmanship issues on the chimney.

 

[begreen]

I think the downdraft is possibly the chimney location. A vacustack cap may help remedy the downdraft due to wind. The chimney support is unambiguous, the installer messed up and needs to correct. The overfiring I suspect is a new operator learning the stove, but could be wrong. The IR is a very willing beast. It breathes easily and may need to be damped in this situation for more certain control. Timing of reloads and proper timing of reduced air control settings are needed for steady temps.

 

[MattFoley772]

I was an installer years ago. Your chimney is too short.

1. Measure 10' horizontally from chimney toward roof peak.
2. Chimney must be 2' higher than this point.
From your photos are those 3' sections of chimney? If yes then your chimney looks to be about 3' too short. The 3-10-2 chimney height rule has been around for decades and is explained in every installation manual yet installers (DIYers and pros) keep doing it wrong.

I have Isle Royale with same setup as yours and I have a vacustack cap. I've never had a backdraft even in 40mph wind. Only time I get puffback is on lowest air setting. Sometimes the gases build up and suddenly ignite. Since air is on low the draft is minimal, thus smoke from this sudden ignition has to go somewhere so it finds its way through any opening. Happens rarely, not a cause for alarm.

If I open doors too fast it'll smoke. Solution: open doors slowly.

 

[js156]

I was an installer years ago. Your chimney is too short.

1. Measure 10' horizontally from chimney toward roof peak.
2. Chimney must be 2' higher than this point.
From your photos are those 3' sections of chimney? If yes then your chimney looks to be about 3' too short. The 3-10-2 chimney height rule has been around for decades and is explained in every installation manual yet installers (DIYers and pros) keep doing it wrong.

I have Isle Royale with same setup as yours and I have a vacustack cap. I've never had a backdraft even in 40mph wind. Only time I get puffback is on lowest air setting. Sometimes the gases build up and suddenly ignite. Since air is on low the draft is minimal, thus smoke from this sudden ignition has to go somewhere so it finds its way through any opening. Happens rarely, not a cause for alarm.

If I open doors too fast it'll smoke. Solution: open doors slowly.

Matt,
I did measure the chimney and it is 1 and 1/2 feet lower than the roof at ten feet so I guess it has to go up another 3 and 1/2 feet. The chimney pipes are 4 feet each.
Also, thank you for mentioning the puff back. I have seen that happen with the V.C. Defiant on youtube so I know exactly what that is. Unfortunately, I have an issue of back drafting during times of wind. Prior to taking the video clip that you saw I did have the air fully open but I was trying my best to stop the backdraft from entering my home and closed it. I was unsuccessful.
I am a bit surprised that the smoke continued to present itself as much as it did from the back of the stove, around the doors and in through the vent too.
I have read on this board by begreen and someone else that this stove "breathes easy" and "is an easy breather". At this time, I am taking that to be a nice way of saying drafty.
I am also dealing with overfiring. One poster on this board thought that this too could be caused buy having a chimney that is too short. Any thoughts?
My position has been that I can't control the fire because I can't reduce the amount of air that it gets. I reach 810 or so on the lowest setting. I have never checked the highest setting. I don't think I should.

 

[js156]

Thanks for posting the photos. Not sure what the installers were thinking. Were you presented with other options for chimney placement? I pretty much hate tall exterior chimneys for this stove and the placement on the roof line makes it worse. If they extend it, you're going to have a 30 foot plus chimney, and other people have had some issues with too much draft with too much chimney for this stove, once the draft is established. I can see how you've been getting smoke and reverse draft too. Like you said, you paid for a professional installation. The Isle Royale deserved better.

NW, Do you know how they handled this draft problem? It seems like a parallel situation. Thank you.

 

[MattFoley772]

Matt,
I did measure the chimney and it is 1 and 1/2 feet lower than the roof at ten feet so I guess it has to go up another 3 and 1/2 feet. The chimney pipes are 4 feet each.
Also, thank you for mentioning the puff back. I have seen that happen with the V.C. Defiant on youtube so I know exactly what that is. Unfortunately, I have an issue of back drafting during times of wind. Prior to taking the video clip that you saw I did have the air fully open but I was trying my best to stop the backdraft from entering my home and closed it. I was unsuccessful.
I am a bit surprised that the smoke continued to present itself as much as it did from the back of the stove, around the doors and in through the vent too.
I have read on this board by begreen and someone else that this stove "breathes easy" and "is an easy breather". At this time, I am taking that to be a nice way of saying drafty.
I am also dealing with overfiring. One poster on this board thought that this too could be caused buy having a chimney that is too short. Any thoughts?
My position has been that I can't control the fire because I can't reduce the amount of air that it gets. I reach 810 or so on the lowest setting. I have never checked the highest setting. I don't think I should.

Since you realize your chimney is too short I'd fix that and see what happens. If it solves your problems, great. If not, I'd suggest a vacustack cap.

Re overfiring, did you check ALL gaskets? Doors, glass, ash pan, top? Do you have a damper in your pipe? If not, get one. They're under $10 at Lowes and WILL slow your burn when all else won't. (You will still need to fix any gasket leaks to ensure the fire gets its air from the right places.)

Where did you find your installer? If he gets the chimney height wrong then what else did he get wrong? If I were you I'd personally check each and every installation detail, esp. clearance to combustibles per the chimney and stove manuals. Take pictures of measurements. Keep all your paper work in case you need to sue this guy or your house burns down. Oh, is he insured? Is he certified? You paid good money and that entitles you to peace of mind and confidence in a job well done.

 

[northwinds]

JS: You spent a lot of money, relying upon the professionalism of the Quad dealer

Since you realize your chimney is too short I'd fix that and see what happens. If it solves your problems, great. If not, I'd suggest a vacustack cap.

Re overfiring, did you check ALL gaskets? Doors, glass, ash pan, top? Do you have a damper in your pipe? If not, get one. They're under $10 at Lowes and WILL slow your burn when all else won't. (You will still need to fix any gasket leaks to ensure the fire gets its air from the right places.)

Where did you find your installer? If he gets the chimney height wrong then what else did he get wrong? If I were you I'd personally check each and every installation detail, esp. clearance to combustibles per the chimney and stove manuals. Take pictures of measurements. Keep all your paper work in case you need to sue this guy or your house burns down. Oh, is he insured? Is he certified? You paid good money and that entitles you to peace of mind and confidence in a job well done.

Matt: Not sure if you've read all of the posts relating to JS's problems, but his chimney is already 27 feet high. I realize that his chimney may be too short in relationship to the top of his roof (and that isn't a good thing), but his chimney isn't short; it just doesn't meet the roof requirement. My belief is that once he gets draft established in the correct direction, the thing is drafting like a Hoover, and that's what has led to overfiring. His operation of the controls has also been questionable. Starting the fire with all air controls closed and the door opened isn't optimal. Neither is trying to keep the smoke out of the house by closing down the air supply. That's not how these stoves work.

JS: The way people have controlled the stove from overfire with 30' plus of chimney is the way that begreen and others have already described: a chimney damper. It isn't optimal. It would be better to have an 18 foot chimney that went above your roof line, but that isn't everyone's situation so people compensate with dampers. The dealer would have saved itself a bunch of service calls with better planning and communication. A preview of the stove site and a demonstration of how to use the stove was something that benefited me, along with advice from experienced users like Jags.

I don't know anything about vacustacks, but it sounds like this could also help your situation, JS.

 

[Jags]

I agree completely with Northwinds.
To recap: Extend the chimney for proper height. This (hopefully) cures the downdraft issue.
Pipe damper above stove. This (hopefully) cures overdraft.
Get the installer back out and get that pipe supported like it should be. (re-read Begreens posts for specifics).
Use the proper startup and operating procedures.

 

[MattFoley772]

JS: You spent a lot of money, relying upon the professionalism of the Quad dealer


Matt: Not sure if you've read all of the posts relating to JS's problems, but his chimney is already 27 feet high. I realize that his chimney may be too short in relationship to the top of his roof (and that isn't a good thing), but his chimney isn't short; it just doesn't meet the roof requirement. My belief is that once he gets draft established in the correct direction, the thing is drafting like a Hoover, and that's what has led to overfiring. His operation of the controls has also been questionable. Starting the fire with all air controls closed and the door opened isn't optimal. Neither is trying to keep the smoke out of the house by closing down the air supply. That's not how these stoves work.

JS: The way people have controlled the stove from overfire with 30' plus of chimney is the way that begreen and others have already described: a chimney damper. It isn't optimal. It would be better to have an 18 foot chimney that went above your roof line, but that isn't everyone's situation so people compensate with dampers. The dealer would have saved itself a bunch of service calls with better planning and communication. A preview of the stove site and a demonstration of how to use the stove was something that benefited me, along with advice from experienced users like Jags.

I don't know anything about vacustacks, but it sounds like this could also help your situation, JS.

Northwinds, I agree 27' is plenty for good draft...but it's "too short" to meet the 3-10-2 rule. Extending it has to be done regardless of his other problems and if doing so fixes those problems, even better...unless caused by operator error.

Other backdraft factors to consider: house too tight, chimney effect inside house, exhaust fans.

 

[js156]

Thank you everyone for your replies.
It is not any news that I have had my reservations regarding chimney dampers. I had thought they were for drafty old stoves not for modern ones but enough people have suggested them for my situation so...I think Kobeman suggested a manometer. Again, where is my dealer.

Matt, The place that sold me the stove did send a service person out once and they replaced the ash pan door gasket. (This was a different person than the installers) I showed him how the clips that hold the glass in place were loose and would even fall out of place if you were to squeeze the glass. He told me he doesn't touch those because he's afraid of breaking the glass. This is unacceptable but I can't make a horse drink water either. I also told him that if I put a dollar bill behind the doors it will pull out against the manuals acceptable tolerances. To which he something like, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to believe everything that the manual says.

I think Quadrafire has a very poor "test" to approve a business to install their product. Or, this dealer totally disregards all that is suppose to be adhered to.
Quad ignores my emails or tells me to contact the dealer and the dealer, in my opinion, shouldn't have a license. But if they sell enough Quadrafires then I guess Quad looks the other way.
Like Northwinds and you and probably others have said, I paid good money for this stove and installation and deserve better but neither outfit has stepped up to the plate.

Matt, as far as what else is wrong besides leaky doors and a stove that overfired and according to page 21 of my manual, by definition, I don't have a warranty because of it. Also it was the installers that told me to leave the door open and avoid the rear vent. But, in their defense, when I do this I still get overfires it doesn't seem to matter. My supporting T Bracket is above the T. not under it. Another thing that I don't think anyone picked up on is the distance away from the house that this pipe is. They used a two foot pipe to go through the wall. It probably should have been 18". On the inside it goes to the elbow so it is maxed out there too. Perhaps the bright side here is if it is further away from the house the house is safer. I don't know.

This is a very questionable dealer and I think Quadrafire should get involved to help save the day but I am not holding my breath.
All I wanted was to enjoy a stove! I never thought any of this was possible. It's a wood stove in the 21st century right?

 

[js156]

There is one thing that I would like to say and it may be surprising. I do like the IR Stove. I just wish I didn't have the over firing and down drafts and of course the dealer issues stink. But that is not Quadrafires fault directly I guess.

 

[begreen]

Wish I lived closer. I would tighten up those glass clips a little and snug up the door. Will the installer at least fix the T support so that it is properly supporting the Tee?

When you say the stove has overfired, what are the indications of this? Has the stove warped? I would also be happy to put in a key damper in the flue pipe.

 

[MattFoley772]

Thank you everyone for your replies.
It is not any news that I have had my reservations regarding chimney dampers. I had thought they were for drafty old stoves not for modern ones but enough people have suggested them for my situation so...I think Kobeman suggested a manometer. Again, where is my dealer.

Matt, The place that sold me the stove did send a service person out once and they replaced the ash pan door gasket. (This was a different person than the installers) I showed him how the clips that hold the glass in place were loose and would even fall out of place if you were to squeeze the glass. He told me he doesn't touch those because he's afraid of breaking the glass. This is unacceptable but I can't make a horse drink water either. I also told him that if I put a dollar bill behind the doors it will pull out against the manuals acceptable tolerances. To which he something like, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to believe everything that the manual says.

I think Quadrafire has a very poor "test" to approve a business to install their product. Or, this dealer totally disregards all that is suppose to be adhered to.
Quad ignores my emails or tells me to contact the dealer and the dealer, in my opinion, shouldn't have a license. But if they sell enough Quadrafires then I guess Quad looks the other way.
Like Northwinds and you and probably others have said, I paid good money for this stove and installation and deserve better but neither outfit has stepped up to the plate.

Matt, as far as what else is wrong besides leaky doors and a stove that overfired and according to page 21 of my manual, by definition, I don't have a warranty because of it. Also it was the installers that told me to leave the door open and avoid the rear vent. But, in their defense, when I do this I still get overfires it doesn't seem to matter. My supporting T Bracket is above the T. not under it. Another thing that I don't think anyone picked up on is the distance away from the house that this pipe is. They used a two foot pipe to go through the wall. It probably should have been 18". On the inside it goes to the elbow so it is maxed out there too. Perhaps the bright side here is if it is further away from the house the house is safer. I don't know.

This is a very questionable dealer and I think Quadrafire should get involved to help save the day but I am not holding my breath.
All I wanted was to enjoy a stove! I never thought any of this was possible. It's a wood stove in the 21st century right?

Why do you say it was overfired? Is something warped or cracked? If it overfired due to faulty gaskets that's not your fault, they should honor the warranty esp. if you pointed it out and the service guy ignored it. If you burn with doors open that can overfire it. If you burn with rear startup air left open that can overfire it. If you are sure you operated according to the manual I think you have grounds to sue the dealer and/or QF to honor the warranty to repair/replace, esp. if they told you they refuse to fix the loose glass and they ignored the manual or encouraged you to ignore it.

There's nothing unsafe about the 2' chimney section inside.

 

[geo91324]

I've had an Isle Royale for some 5 years and found it to be a great stove. I have a large house and have the IR and 3 other stoves (a Hearthstone Heritage, a VC Encore and a VC Aspen). Each stove has its own quirks, each flue it's own characteristics. But one thing I know for sure, when I start an IR fire if I don't have the primary all the way pushed in and the secondary all the way to the left--maximum open for both--I can get some serious back puffing into the room. (Yes, through the gaskets and everywhere else.) The fact that the OP starts his fire with both vents shut and the right door open and that he can do this w/o back puffing means to me that there is one hell of a draft or much more likely a leak. My first bet, as was suggested earlier, is the ash pan door--either it is not securely closed or it is not sealed tight. (On this stove it is very easy to think you have closed the ash pan door securely when you really haven't.) Also, if the glass clips are loose this is another installation problem. They should be tight so that the glass seals tightly on its gasket.

Starting a smokeless fire is an art form and starting one with a double 90 flue is even more so. I always crack a window when starting any of my stoves and after about 5 minutes I close the window and with the IR about 10 or 15 minutes later close the startup vent (pull it all the way out). I always fill the firebox with the initial load which lasts quite a while, especially with the secondary (the slide) at medium or less. When it comes time to reload remember that this stove is meant to be reloaded from the TOP, not the front. Push the afterburner lever back, pull the startup control out (optional) and wait 30 sec to a minute to let the smoke around the afterburner get sucked up. Lift the top up, reload, close the top, pull the afterburner back, close the startup vent (pull out). It goes w/o saying you should be burning dry, well seasoned wood.

I have a 30' chimney and have never had an over or under draft problem with this stove. The only back puffing I've ever had is if I forget to open the vents fully when starting a fire. It's a great stove, little maintenance, and puts out a lot of heat. My suggestion is to bite the bullet and find a different (and well recommended) Quad dealer. Pay him the $200 or so service charge and let him check out the whole setup and start a fire.

 

[ArsenalDon]

When it comes time to reload remember that this stove is meant to be reloaded from the TOP, not the front.

Not sure where you get this from...only load mine from the front with zero issues ever.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

Well, I'm back.
My new stove is now smoking. Please see the two videos that I have links to below.
My questions are 1, why is it smoking and 2, why is the smoke leaving the stove where it is. It isn't visible but it does come out around the doors too. In one of the videos it visible at the bottom and in the back too.
I did not install a thing. All I did was buy the stove and pay for it's installation from the same dealer.
My wife and I waited three years for this stove and we were so happy to finally buy it. But...
Note: In case you are unfamiliar with my previous thread it did over fire out of the box and did reach 900+ degrees. The dealer came back and replaced a gasket around the stove door. After that the stoves running temp dropped to 800 degrees but still burnt the hardwood very quickly.I guess it would. Now with these videos new being sent to them I have not heard a thing. I think that is just morally wrong. Almost 6500 dollars and nothing. Thank you for any helpful knowledge that you may have and share.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/with/13144241155/

I'm not trying to pour salt on a wound...but we just installed a mahogany enamel Qaud Isle Royale with all new pipe. We were in it for $3100, including delivery and install plus a 5 year warranty on everything from the dealer. Plus, they had a 2 hour drive one way to boot.

I'd be on them like a spider money.

 

[begreen]

To be a fair price comparison note the install was connecting to an existing chimney.